Do Souls Exist?

[Zoink]

[ What would be the point to even live in a world of pure biological dictation? Our higher mental functions are for waste, then. Death should be seen as the ultimate gift; blissful nothing.

Evolution.

You exist because your parent lived and reproduced. If you choose to follow a similar route then your kids will also exist. If you do not, then they won't.

Perhaps the development of human consiousness has reached a point where people can be aware of life's meaningless, that life exists because it reproduces, not *to* reproduce. Those that can't deal with reality, and give up on living are evolutionary dead-ends. Future life will be descentant from those that *could* deal with it.

[Darth Wong]

What would be the point to even live in a world of pure biological dictation?

And why would a soul give your life any more of a "point?" All it would do is extend your pointless existence. If you lack the ability to find meaning in life without personal immortality, you won't find it with personal immortality.

[kojikun]

mike - i have too muc meaning i want to see the day when Culture level technology is a reality and damnit, 50 or 60 more years just isnt enough!

on the topic of souls -- a philosopher im rather fond of (he looks like my great great grandfather ) was once in an Italian new paper and the article was titled "Yes! We do have a soul! But its made of lots of tiny robots!"

Hes one of those philosophers that actually thinks about the issues, about things like consciousness (which he says doesnt exist and that our brains feed "us" information only then we need it and ignores everything else, like when you zone out while reading a book)

[UltraViolence83]

I don't believe in souls because it makes me feel better about death; like I said, big long nothing seems pretty inviting. It's the belief that I go on forever that I don't have a perpetual death wish-it would solve nothing. The belief that my consciousness won't fade away makes me think that I'm stuck in this predicament, and should make the best out of it. I'm the oppisite of the enlightenment-seeking Buddha: I seek no Nirvana. I simply move on.

DW:I wish I could prove that, indeed. Oh well. Life's a bitch, no?

Zoink: How exactly does a very slow genetic mutation of a species determine it's own succesion via the best philosphies on life? Sorry if it sounds sarcastic, it's a serious question. Sounds like a "normal" person would find the idea of someone else not wanting offspring repulsive.

[Zoink]

Zoink: How exactly does a very slow genetic mutation of a species determine it's own succesion via the best philosphies on life? Sorry if it sounds sarcastic, it's a serious question.

I was simply trying to say that evolution brought us to this point. That there is no *real* meaning to life, just an observational fact that we exist. Our brain has evolved to a point where we can see what evolution is and why it exists. We can over-ride our instinctual urges (to some degree). Just because we our enclined to choose a particular course in life doesn't mean that course is the "meaning" of life.


On the issue of succession through philosophy:

I wouldn't necessarily label evolution as simply "slow genetic mutation", rather decent with change. Genes are the mechanism that drives our evolution, but any information system (like the information stored in our brain and not genes) might play a larger part in the future (and perhaps are at work now?). System's that pass this information from one generation to another, like a particular philosophy on how to teach your childeren, might be the mechanism that determines succession. I think that its not only genes evolving, but the information passed from one generation to the next is also evolving and affecting who decides to have kids. Perhaps somebody raised to believe that life w/o a soul is meaningless, might find life unbearable when confronted with reality and choose not to have kids.

Sounds like a "normal" person would find the idea of someone else not wanting offspring repulsive.

If you define "normal" as something belonging to the norm, then yes: normal people want kids. We are programmed to want kids. We see kids and at a certain age we find the idea of having them desirable.

But we are also capable of seeing that this desire is there because of evolution. We can choose to over-ride it. Is this a "bad" thing? Not really. Its just an observational fact that people that choose to reproduce will have kids, and those that don't will not. Our brain allows us this choice (which is influenced by both genetics and what you've learned). Your dog doesn't have this choice: it will do your leg if it has to.

note: personally, I want kids someday. And if I don't get it often enough I might have to resort to legs as well....

[FireNexus]

When Christopher Reeve (sp?) (Superman) fell off his horse and was taken in to hospital for operation. During the surgery his heart stopped, and during an interview afterwards he said he was floating outside his own body.

It is these near death experiences that makes me believe every human being, perhaps every creature do have a soul.

Actually, that can be attributed to a chemical called DMT. At birth and near death large quantities of DMT are produced by the brain, and cause the NDE. It's essentially a psychedelic trip, since a lot of psychedelic users take DMT for fun. It is the businessman's trip, after all. (Only lasts 45 minutes or so.)

[Sir Sirius]

Something interresting about OBE: http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09 ... outofbody/

[Andrew J.]

Hmm...no, I don't think so. And it's a good thing, too, because I would have sold mine by now if I did have one.

[UltraViolence83]

Could constant use of those electrodes cause brain damage, or at least imbalance of the mind? I can see a world where future would-be mystics connect themselves to perceive reality so much differently than normal, then "burn" themselves out from overuse and the sheer speed of it all. Meanwhile the try-and-true crowd laugh at them...

[jegs2]

Hmm...no, I don't think so. And it's a good thing, too, because I would have sold mine by now if I did have one.

***is reminded of that Simpsons cartoon in which Bart sold his soul***

[kojikun]

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml

read more on DMT. great fun.

[UltraViolence83]

And the winner, in the "Stupidest Thing GrandAdmiralPrawn Has Read Today" category, is...

*drumroll*

Yes. Can I prove it? No.

After all, why should things need evidence in order to be considered true? As long as it makes you feel all warm and snuggly, just believe it anyway! Best of all, since it's a socially accepted quasi-religious belief, you can even act like your position is somehow wise or principled, and not just blitheringly insane! Give yourself a hand!

This from the guy who wants to kill the mentally retarded.

[Darth Wong]

And the winner, in the "Stupidest Thing GrandAdmiralPrawn Has Read Today" category, is...

*drumroll*

Yes. Can I prove it? No.

After all, why should things need evidence in order to be considered true?

How is his line stupid? He admits it up-front; that's good. If all Christians did that, we wouldn't have all of these fucking problems with fundies trying to rewrite science textbooks.

[LadyTevar]

Again, influenced by an SB.com thread, do souls in the classical sense exist?

Yes, they do. I am convinced, because I have experienced proof.

My father passed away in September of 1997, yet I have often smelt his pipe smoke about the house. What is odd about this? He never smoked in this house, having quit smoking 5 years before moving in.

Second proof: My nephew was born 3 months after my father's death. When my nephew was 3 yrs old my brother was living in the old house, where we grew up, and my nephew would walk around talking to 'Papa Jack' whom he'd only seen in photographs. After my sister-in-law got freaked out by this, my brother sat him down to explain that Papa Jack was in Heaven. My nephew looked him in the eye and said "Papa Jack said 'Ikey'". This was my father's nickname for my brother, used whenever my brother was being stubborn or willful. (ie: "Just settle down, Ikey, you're not going anywhere tonight.") How does a child know a name he's never heard?

[Zoink]

My father passed away in September of 1997, yet I have often smelt his pipe smoke about the house. What is odd about this? He never smoked in this house, having quit smoking 5 years before moving in.

Are you sure something else isn't triggering this memory? There are also medical causes; epilepsy can trigger sudden and very specific sensory perceptions.

For a soul to create smoke would require the production and burning of a collection of rather complicated organic molecules. A soul would require some kind of energy-to-matter conversion ability, with the knowledge/ability to then organize the resulting sub atomic particles into a very complicated arrangement.

Alternately, the soul would have to have the knowledge and ability to directly excite very specific nerve centers (or brain regions) on a person in very specific ways....

I don't mean to be insensitive to your loss (a loss of a parent is always hard, you do have my sympathy); this is simply how I deal with such things myself. The conclusion I'd reach (via Occam's Razor) would lead myself to investigate the first two possibilities (triggered memory or medical problem) before concluding that souls exist.

I know that when my grandfather died, my mother expressed similar feelings, things that would lead one to believe in life-after death (I'd label her agnostic). But she eventually changed her mind after she had time to properly deal with the loss.

My nephew looked him in the eye and said "Papa Jack said 'Ikey'". This was my father's nickname for my brother...

Are you sure he never overheard this name at some point? Kids have a habit of picking up the wierdest things.

As a young kid maybe 6 or 7, I thought I might be psychic because I remembered that I had once predicted my parents running out of gas when I was about 4... eventually I figured out that I had heard them talking about it during the trip, but just didn't remember them actually saying it (they obviously talked about it, there's a gauge on the car, but I didn't drive cars at that age so it wasn't that obvious at the time!)... I later confirmed my lack of psychic abilities with various guessing games and trying to move a pencil with my mind (solid hour of trying didn't produce anything, even though pretty much every single dream I had at that age, I had telekinetic powers...dang).

[UltraViolence83]

Again, influenced by an SB.com thread, do souls in the classical sense exist?

Yes, they do. I am convinced, because I have experienced proof.

My father passed away in September of 1997, yet I have often smelt his pipe smoke about the house. What is odd about this? He never smoked in this house, having quit smoking 5 years before moving in.

Second proof: My nephew was born 3 months after my father's death. When my nephew was 3 yrs old my brother was living in the old house, where we grew up, and my nephew would walk around talking to 'Papa Jack' whom he'd only seen in photographs. After my sister-in-law got freaked out by this, my brother sat him down to explain that Papa Jack was in Heaven. My nephew looked him in the eye and said "Papa Jack said 'Ikey'". This was my father's nickname for my brother, used whenever my brother was being stubborn or willful. (ie: "Just settle down, Ikey, you're not going anywhere tonight.") How does a child know a name he's never heard?

Cigar smoke from the long-dead is not unknown. A hotel(I think it was) is said to be haunted. Ulysses Grant used to hang out there alot, I guess. They say you can sometimes smoke strong cigar smoke. Of course, the hotel (it may have been the White House, I forget) may very well just be giving everyone a ruse to boost their tourism. Jerks.

[jegs2]

How is his line stupid? He admits it up-front; that's good. If all Christians did that, we wouldn't have all of these fucking problems with fundies trying to rewrite science textbooks.

Admitting that you're irrational doesn't change the fact that you ARE irrational. If anything, even a vague attempt at evidence is MORE logical than just throwing the very concept of evidence out the window.

The fundies you speak of, creationists and the like, only spew up their feeble "evidence" because they want to improve their credibility in the eyes of the fence-sitters. You and I both know that, when it comes right down to it, they believe their shit for the same reason Jegs believes his: They just do. The difference is, Jegs doesn't really care if people agree with him or not, whereas fundies have that strange urge to convert the whole world.

What I said is that one cannot hope to prove the existence of a soul (or a spirit, ghost, etc.) with the scientific method. That does not change the fact that I believe in the existence of a soul. That belief is based soley (no pun intended) upon faith.

[LadyTevar]

My father passed away in September of 1997, yet I have often smelt his pipe smoke about the house. What is odd about this? He never smoked in this house, having quit smoking 5 years before moving in.

Are you sure something else isn't triggering this memory? There are also medical causes; epilepsy can trigger sudden and very specific sensory perceptions.

I don't mean to be insensitive to your loss (a loss of a parent is always hard, you do have my sympathy); this is simply how I deal with such things myself. The conclusion I'd reach (via Occam's Razor) would lead myself to investigate the first two possibilities (triggered memory or medical problem) before concluding that souls exist.

First, thank you for your sympathy. After five years, it's not so hard and raw a loss, merely a 'wish he was here' ache sometimes.
Secondly, while my family does suffer from heart disease, high/low blood pressure, diabetes, and various cancers, epilepsy is not one of the inherited diseases, so that explaination is cut.

I'm not the only one to have smelled the pipe smoke either. . . my mom, both my brothers, and even my sister-in-law, who joined the family *after* my dad quit smoking. None have epilepsy, and only my mother has been on Prozac fr depression.

My nephew looked him in the eye and said "Papa Jack said 'Ikey'". This was my father's nickname for my brother...

Are you sure he never overheard this name at some point? Kids have a habit of picking up the wierdest things.

That could have been a possibility, except that no one else in the family ever calls/called my little brother 'Ikey", just like no one else calls me "Miss Lucy" when I'm being prissy, and bossy. There was no where my nephew could have heard that name.

[jegs2]

*SNIP*

I have to say that if we were voting for avatars, your avatar would get my vote.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not the only one to have smelled the pipe smoke either. . . my mom, both my brothers, and even my sister-in-law, who joined the family *after* my dad quit smoking. None have epilepsy, and only my mother has been on Prozac fr depression.

Please do not interpret this as insensitivity, but I have three questions:

1. Has anyone ever lived in the house who smoked? Cigarette and pipe smoke can infiltrate the materials of a house to the extent that it's almost impossible to extract them, and faint odours can remain through multiple subsequent homeowners.
2. How can you be sure that none of the people who smell this odour are aware of the fact that he smoked before his death?
3. Even if he had a soul, why would the cigarette smoke persist after his death? Did his pipe tobacco have an immortal soul too?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I do not believe the soul exists. I am not making this post. I am not I. Just kidding. Yes, I believe the soul exists, but I have no logic or evidence to support that position. Still, I am here.

[kojikun]

Yes mike, the smoke has a soul.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Hes one of those philosophers that actually thinks about the issues, about things like consciousness (which he says doesnt exist and that our brains feed "us" information only then we need it and ignores everything else, like when you zone out while reading a book)

Maybe we're dealing with different definitions of "soul" here. Under the definition of "animating or vital force" within a human being, the philosopher's statement makes no sense, because how can our brains feed "us" information if there is no "us"?

The fact that we discuss the issue of the soul does not solidly prove that we have one, but why would it even be an issue otherwise? If the soul does not exist, what is it we're discussing? A delusion? Can it be proven that the sensation some interpret as "soul" is the merely the result of electrical impulses in the brain? Maybe -- if there were a standard definition of the phenomenon.

But if we accept the (astonishingly moronic, IMHO) opinion that consciousness doesn't exist, then why are we even discussing this subject? Why are we discussing anything -- obviously, we're not, since we as entities do not exist. There's no text in this post. You are not sitting in front of a computer reading something I didn't write. Now get up off the ass you don't have, go into the nonexistent outdoors, and don't play. :rolleyes:

[UltraViolence83]

The smoke doesn't need to have a "soul." Most theories on paranormal activity suggest that scents are emotional connections related to the person in question and manifest as s/he appears as a ghost.

I beg your pardon now, as I am currently endeavoring to open a portal to/from Hell.

*mumbles mantra*

[Darth Wong]

The smoke doesn't need to have a "soul." Most theories on paranormal activity suggest that scents are emotional connections related to the person in question and manifest as s/he appears as a ghost.

*Takes Occam's Razor and slices*

Hmmm, looks like you could just as easily explain it as emotional connections in the observer which manifest as he/she enters an environment which makes him/her think of the deceased. One redundant term removed. Theory improved.