Bomb Plot Against NATO Summit

General Mung Beans · Post by **General Mung Beans** » 2012-05-20 09:37pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/us/tw ... eting.html

Protesters and Police Clash at NATO Meeting; 2 Held on Terrorism Charges
Ozier Muhammad/The New York Times

Protesters clashed with police at the NATO summit meeting in Chicago on Sunday.
By MONICA DAVEY and IDALMY CARRERA
Published: May 20, 2012

CHICAGO — Protesters and the police clashed Sunday in the most fractious confrontation yet following a series of weekend protests against the NATO summit meeting being held here.
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Many demonstrators were arrested — dragged from the scrum one by one — as officers, clad in full riot gear, tried to disperse a crowd that had gathered after a march near McCormick Place, where the foreign leaders were meeting. Video captured officers striking a group of protesters repeatedly with batons.

Earlier in the day, Chicago authorities announced that they had arrested and filed charges against two more men accused of trying to acquire explosives to disrupt the gathering.

The announcement came a day after prosecutors said that they had uncovered a plot involving three men who had considered attacks against President Obama’s re-election campaign headquarters, the house of Mayor Rahm Emanuel, police stations and financial institutions.

The additional arrests, which occurred in the past few days but were only announced on Sunday, were unconnected to the other charges, an official with the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office said, though that earlier investigation helped lead the authorities to the men whose arrests were announced on Sunday.

One of the suspects, Sebastian Senakiewicz, 24, of Chicago, was charged with falsely making a terrorist threat by claiming that he had homemade explosives — hidden in a hollowed-out Harry Potter book at his house — that could blow up a highway overpass, prosecutors said.

Separately, Mark Neiweem, 28, who was also believed to be from Chicago, was charged with “solicitation for possession” of explosives or incendiary devices. Prosecutors said he had discussed making a pipe bomb with an associate.

Lawyers for the men denied the charges, and they suggested that the authorities in Chicago were overstating the claims as a warning to the thousands of protesters, some of them linked to the Occupy movement, who have descended on the city for the summit meeting.

Law enforcement officials dismissed such assertions, but the arrests only added to the tension in Chicago, which has been preparing for months to host the first NATO summit meeting to be held in an American city outside of Washington, and for the political protests that would accompany it. At least 18 people have been charged with crimes in connection to protests since Friday, the authorities said on Sunday, and there were about a dozen arrests in the days before that.

Chicago officials were also investigating whether the city’s official Web site — which was down early Sunday — had been the target of a cyberattack. At least one group seemed to claim responsibility in a YouTube video that has since been removed, and Pete Scales, a spokesman for the mayor, said the city was working with the federal authorities to investigate the matter.

Meanwhile, thousands of people gathered in the steamy weather in Grant Park, along Lake Michigan, to protest NATO and its work. They later planned to march to McCormick Place, where the foreign leaders were meeting.

Among the crowd were former members of the military who had taken part in the war in Afghanistan, the chief subject of the NATO meeting. They intended to return their medals in a symbolic ceremony near McCormick Place.

Prosecutors said on Saturday that the plan to damage Mr. Obama’s re-election offices or Mr. Emanuel’s house involved three men who were charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism and possession of explosives. Bond for the three men — Jared Chase, 27, of Keene, N.H.; Brent Betterly, 24, of Oakland Park, Fla.; and Brian Jacob Church, 22, of Fort Lauderdale, Fla. — was set at $1.5 million each. The state’s attorney, Anita Alvarez, said she believed it was the first time that defendants had been charged under the state’s antiterrorism statute. She declined to comment on possible federal charges.

Officials said there was no imminent threat to the city, and they said the suspects had identified themselves as anarchists.

“The individuals we charged are not peaceful protesters; they are domestic terrorists,” Ms. Alvarez said. “The charges we bring today are not indicative of a protest movement that has been targeted.”

The suspects’ lawyers said the authorities were trying to send a message. “This is just propaganda to create a climate of fear and to create this public perception that protesters are violent,” said Michael Deutsch of the National Lawyers Guild, which is providing legal advice and representation for protesters during the summit meeting.

Ben LaBolt, a spokesman for the Obama campaign, declined to comment and referred questions to the Chicago Police Department.

Prosecutors said they began investigating the three men in early May. They were detained on Wednesday night, when police officers and F.B.I. agents obtained a no-knock search warrant and raided an apartment in Bridgeport, a neighborhood on Chicago’s South Side.

The defendants, prosecutors said, had assembled four firebombs using empty beer bottles, and had cut up bandannas as fuses. Officials said the improvised bombs were to be used in attacks against police stations, which would divert attention from other attacks around the city.

The defendants also had plans to buy assault rifles and to build a pipe bomb, prosecutors said. Weapons — including throwing stars, swords with brass-knuckle handles, a hunting bow and a shield with protruding nails — as well as gas masks and a map with details of escape routes from the city were also said to have been found in the apartment.

But lawyers for the defendants said the men were entrapped, and that a man and a woman who were either informants or undercover law enforcement officials had come up with the plans and provided the materials for explosives. Lawyers for the men whose arrests were announced on Sunday said the same man and woman were involved in their clients’ cases.

Steven Yaccino contributed reporting from Chicago, and Joshua Brustein from New York.

Glad the various plots were stopped before anything serious happened.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-20 09:50pm

I'll just throw in here that the defendant found in possession of the empty beer bottles claims that he is a homebrewer and had the bottles for his two current batches, a pale ale and a stout, and has invited "the universe" to have a sample to prove it's just beer, not explosives.

I'm of two minds about this - domestic terrorism in the US certainly has occurred and it's a possibility. On the other hand the city is so wired up and the authorities on edge it's not beyond the possible that these guys are either scapegoats or the victims of over-enthusiastic informants. There has been speculation for weeks that with so much being spent on security, with so much inconvenience, the authorities need something to show for their efforts.

I'm trying not to form an opinion until we get more information on this matter.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-20 11:21pm

In case anyone was wondering - in general, the police have been letting the crowds walk around the city, for the most part allowing them to shut down streets and make a lot of noise. There are some venues they weren't allowed to get too near (McCormick place, for example) but people were allowed to spontaneously gather and do their thing.

There were 45 arrests, which, frankly, is less than at some other city events we've had. The police were out in force and made it clear that they would engage in various crowd controls measures if necessary, but it seems the majority of the activity consisted of police and protesters shoving each other.

One cop was stabbed in the leg. No other major injuries reported although some of the crowd were taken to the hospital. Some of that could have been the heat today.

As of this writing there's a crowd in front of the Art Institute with a shit-ton of police in full riot gear, but everyone is mostly standing around peaceably. The crowd will not be allowed in the Art Institute. The cops are just standing watching the crowd. The crowd is... well, it looks very 1960's, but peaceful rather than violent.

So, overall, pretty peaceful weekend all things considered. On the other hand, if something did get started I could see the situation erupting pretty spectacularly. Hence, the cops in riot gear doing nothing other than making it plain they're present and don't want shit to get started. Meanwhile, yell, wear funny costumes, wave banners and flags, and so on until you're too exhausted to continue. Exercise your First Amendment rights to assemble and speak freely but don't break shit that doesn't belong to you.

Simon_Jester · Post by **Simon_Jester** » 2012-05-20 11:44pm

Broomstick wrote:I'll just throw in here that the defendant found in possession of the empty beer bottles claims that he is a homebrewer and had the bottles for his two current batches, a pale ale and a stout, and has invited "the universe" to have a sample to prove it's just beer, not explosives.

I'm of two minds about this - domestic terrorism in the US certainly has occurred and it's a possibility. On the other hand the city is so wired up and the authorities on edge it's not beyond the possible that these guys are either scapegoats or the victims of over-enthusiastic informants. There has been speculation for weeks that with so much being spent on security, with so much inconvenience, the authorities need something to show for their efforts.

I'm trying not to form an opinion until we get more information on this matter.

How often do we normally get bomb plots associated with this kind of summit (NATO, G8, WTO, whatever)? My uninformed impression is that there usually aren't any, even though there are often large protests and sometimes riots.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-20 11:53pm

So far we have some people accused of being terrorists, and those same people denying the charge. I haven't really seen any proof one way or the other. While Chicago is very much on the alert this weekend I don't see The Authorities being particularly provocative (unless you view police in riot gear standing next to a crowd but doing nothing as provocative). Very clearly, The Authorities are ready for trouble but seem disinclined to start it. This makes me think there may, in fact, be something to the charges but that's strictly opinion and all touchy-feely, not based on solid facts.

As a contrast to the 45 arrests in the non-riot, this weekend 12 people were shot in Chicago and one killed outside of the protest/NATO areas. In other words, the protests/NATO were the peaceful part of the city.

Some of the "bombs" these guys are accused of making - molotov cocktails - have been seen in protest crowds at meetings like this so it's not an improbably occurrence. Then again, this is a city were people are shot, killed, and people do sometimes blow shit up even when NATO isn't here. The charges are plausible, I just don't know if they're valid in this case or not.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-22 11:16am

The Lawyers Guild said earlier this was an entrapment and a large portion of the protesters believe so as well. The fact that apparently those were the same three people police harassed earlier on in the week (there is a video of chicago police officers saying "we'll beat your white asses") to I believe those same people.

EDIT: the original info sent out

BREAKING NEWS FROM THE NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD: SERIOUS CHARGES PLACED ON THE LAST 3 ARRESTEES FROM WEDNESDAY'S ILLEGAL POLICE RAID IN BRIDGEPORT.
Arrestees charged w possession of incendiary or explosive device, conspiracy to commit terrorism & providing material support for terrorism. These three people are the SAME three men in a video of police threatening violence on them during the NATO Summit. The video spread and now police are retaliating by levying serious terrorism charges against the three. Support the #Nato3 in court today:
BOND COURT, SATURDAY, NOON, 26TH & CALIFORNIA
EVERYONE IN CHICAGO SHOULD COME FLOOD THE COURTS!

Broomstick wrote:So far we have some people accused of being terrorists, and those same people denying the charge. I haven't really seen any proof one way or the other. While Chicago is very much on the alert this weekend I don't see The Authorities being particularly provocative (unless you view police in riot gear standing next to a crowd but doing nothing as provocative).

Some of the police had those black uniforms and seemed to enjoy 'posturing' with their batons. Speaking, of that....

Poster off another forum (alternate-history forum) I browse:

"My favorite part about the NATO summit was that the busses they were using to transport those who were arrested had the signs on their front edited to flash the phrase "Chicago is my kind of town." It's like Rahm wants his city to be the setting for some dystopian cyberpunk novel or something."

EDIT: re. arrests, they recovered all of their comrades minus the "NATO 3" last night at like midnight and i think there is still a rally today for them.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-22 07:53pm

Saxtonite wrote:Some of the police had those black uniforms and seemed to enjoy 'posturing' with their batons. Speaking, of that....

The police were, in many cases, acting as living barricades for crowd control. The "posturing" is actually a typical stance taken by the cops while doing that. Sorry you find the color black "menacing". In actual fact, quite a few of the protesters screamed at, shoved, and threw things at those ranks of police and for the most part the police just stood there.

I have zero sympathy for the guy who stabbed in the leg one of the cops in those phalanxes and got whacked upside the head and arrested. Sticking a knife into a cop in full riot gear standing next to a couple dozen of his buddies is really kind of stupid.

So several thousand people got to wander around the Loop and block traffic and scream at the cops all weekend. No serious injuries reported on either side (and by that I mean "admitted to a hospital", there were some scuffles) other than the cop who got stabbed, and he was treated and released, not held over night.

Were some people arrested? Yes. That happens at music festivals and city events, too. Pro-tip: shove a cop, you're usually going to get arrested. Start verbalizing agitating for people to get violent in a crowd situation you're going to get arrested. Break shit that doesn't belong to you and you're going to get arrested. Block traffic too long on a major thoroughfare you're going to get arrested. Act too drunk or high to behave in public you're going to get arrested.

Normally, you have to get approval in advance and a permit to hold a parade/demonstration/block traffic in downtown Chicago. This weekend they were just letting folks wander around at will so long as it was just noise and not violence or vandalism. That's actually more lax than usual.

Were some people targeted as troublemakers ahead of time? Yes. Were they harassed and potentially arrested falsely? It is certainly a possibility. If it did occur by all means call the cops to account for their actions. Brewing beer in Bridgeport? Hell, that's been going on since the 1800's. I suspect the guy claiming he was cooking an ale and a stout is on the level and it wouldn't surprise me if some busy-body neighbor "reported the terrorist" for shits and grins. On the other hand, there are people who go looking for trouble. If someone has real evidence either way by all means present it, I'd like to see it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2012-05-22 08:58pm

Saxtonite wrote: Some of the police had those black uniforms and seemed to enjoy 'posturing' with their batons. Speaking, of that....

Its kind of part of the point of police during events like this; posture and hope it works as a deterrent.

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2012-05-22 10:24pm

Overall, I'd say the Chicago PD did pretty good both in terms of responding to the protestors and making a concerted effort not to validate the stereotype established in '68, and I imagine quite a few protestors didn't want to provoke it, either. The big confrontion was Sunday evening at Michigan-Cermak, and it seemed like the press was getting the worst of it (reporters and cameramen were basically wedged between the police wall and the protestors), with only an occasional swinging of batons, like when they had one of those metal crowd control fences thrown at them. They arrested fewer people than they did in some of those Occupy protests.

By the way, does anyone know why the hell they restricted food, drinks, bicycles, and backpacks on Metra trains... but not the 'L'? That struck me as a completely pointless move.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-22 11:11pm

There normally are restrictions on bicycles, particularly at rush hour.

The rest? I don't know why they'd restrict food/drink/bags on Metra and the South Shore but not the El. I though the restrictions were on the South Shore and the Metra Electric line that pass under McCormick Place and not every single Metra line, but I might be wrong on that.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-23 12:21am

Broomstick wrote:The police were, in many cases, acting as living barricades for crowd control. The "posturing" is actually a typical stance taken by the cops while doing that. Sorry you find the color black "menacing".

Well, going and wearing all black in the middle of summer when Chicago Police officers rarely dress up like that (as a matter of fact, I dont think I have EVER seen CPD officers in that uniform before) was menacing to many people there.

In actual fact, quite a few of the protesters screamed at, shoved, and threw things at those ranks of police and for the most part the police just stood there.

I am aware. The police also shouted obsenities at many protestors (things like "commie faggot" "piece of shit" and whatnot. Someone also arrested someone on "illegal usage of a gasoline container" because they needed a charge to stick when harassing the individual.

Protesters have personally told me of cases of arresting and harassing non-violent people, harassing independent media, arresting people for taking photographs, cases of people being "disappeared".

Oh, and don't forget running over someone with a van like in Egypt. Or Threatening to beat "their white asses" and basically looking for ways to fuck over people.

I have zero sympathy for the guy who stabbed in the leg one of the cops in those phalanxes and got whacked upside the head and arrested. Sticking a knife into a cop in full riot gear standing next to a couple dozen of his buddies is really kind of stupid.

I don't know the full context of that sorry but I am guessing that was during the kettling?

Were some people arrested? Yes. That happens at music festivals and city events, too.

There are critical mass bike rides in Chicago every last friday of the month yet I do not see people arrested at every critical mass event. Speaking of that, I don't think I have seen any arrests at a critical mass bike ride.

Pro-tip: shove a cop, you're usually going to get arrested. Start verbalizing agitating for people to get violent in a crowd situation you're going to get arrested. Break shit that doesn't belong to you and you're going to get arrested. Block traffic too long on a major thoroughfare you're going to get arrested. Act too drunk or high to behave in public you're going to get arrested.

Be independent media? Get harassed

EDIT: Also, I presume you are referring to the Black Bloc. The Black Bloc does not start the violent things, often they are responding to previous violence. Most black bloc demos are nonviolent

Normally, you have to get approval in advance and a permit to hold a parade/demonstration/block traffic in downtown Chicago. This weekend they were just letting folks wander around at will so long as it was just noise and not violence or vandalism. That's actually more lax than usual.

Again, Critical Mass (not approved or permitted!) has events every last friday of the month and the result is better. Or course things could be worse (i.e. 1968 DNC).

Were some people targeted as troublemakers ahead of time? Yes. Were they harassed and potentially arrested falsely? It is certainly a possibility. If it did occur by all means call the cops to account for their actions.

If someone has real evidence either way by all means present it, I'd like to see it.

See the above links I provided, the other stuff I couldn't find or was too unthorough in looking for a link. Again, this is stuff protesters personally have told me. They left the events in groups to prevent being harassed or arbitrarily arrested by prople, and mny wore masks for safety (no, there were NOT black bloc).

I am sure more information will be released later.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Its kind of part of the point of police during events like this; posture and hope it works as a deterrent.

It tends to have the opposite effect as people do not like being intimidated.

TC Pilot wrote:By the way, does anyone know why the hell they restricted food, drinks, bicycles, and backpacks on Metra trains... but not the 'L'? That struck me as a completely pointless move.

Metra has historically tended to be more restrictive in things, to an extreme level. That, and given it's commuter rail I think placed it under federal control? (some people mentioned that was it). Also some metra lines did not have those sorts of extreme security, but other metra lines did. Maybe they assumed that more protestors would originate in the suburbs instead of mainly using near north and south side housing as their 'bases'

Enforcing that sort of shit on the el lines is amazingly hard to do. Sometimes people jump the turnstiles after all!

There are not security people on el lines unless it is late night/early morning and volunteer groups like those "guardian angels" are out.

Broomstick wrote: I though the restrictions were on the South Shore and the Metra Electric line that pass under McCormick Place and not every single Metra line, but I might be wrong on that.

local media showed they were enforcing it on one of the west routes, I think the Elgin or harvard route.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-23 08:44am

Saxtonite wrote:
Broomstick wrote:The police were, in many cases, acting as living barricades for crowd control. The "posturing" is actually a typical stance taken by the cops while doing that. Sorry you find the color black "menacing".
Well, going and wearing all black in the middle of summer when Chicago Police officers rarely dress up like that (as a matter of fact, I dont think I have EVER seen CPD officers in that uniform before) was menacing to many people there.

You fucking, mewling moron - May 20-21 is NOT the "middle of summer". Exaggerate much? On top of that, I have seen the CPD in black before, but then, I'm over the age of 12. It's called "riot gear". I understand that you're trying to imply something sinister based solely on their uniform color. Me, I'm not afraid of a color.

In actual fact, quite a few of the protesters screamed at, shoved, and threw things at those ranks of police and for the most part the police just stood there.
I am aware. The police also shouted obsenities at many protestors (things like "commie faggot" "piece of shit" and whatnot.

So what, exactly are you saying? It's OK for protestors to shout "fucking pigs!" at the cops but how dare the cops yell anything back? Double standard there.

I'll address some of your "evidence" in my next post, as this is going to be long enough as it is.

Someone also arrested someone on "illegal usage of a gasoline container" because they needed a charge to stick when harassing the individual.

I have not heard of this. Provide details.

Protesters have personally told me of cases of arresting and harassing non-violent people, harassing independent media, arresting people for taking photographs, cases of people being "disappeared".

Anecdote does not equal data. I have had people "personally" tell me all manner of things.

The Bridgeport guys - I'm not calling them "activists" because I'm not convinced they're that, either. For all I know they're a bunch of guys who brew beer and get drunk on the weekends with no political agenda whatsoever. Anyhow, these guys weren't "disappeared". That's an outrageous comparison with people like the desaparecidos of Argentina who weren't simply difficult to locate for 12 hours but gone for years without a trace and murdered. The comparison implies the CPD were intent on political murder, which is the masturbatory wet dream of fantasizing anarchists and wannabe-commmies. No charges for 24 hours? Dude, that's perfectly legal and normal. The police can, in fact, hold you up to 24 hours without filing charges. This is nothing new, but perhaps you are 12 and ignorant of the law. But hey, let's repeat "journalism" that is also ignorant of that fact and uses to imply the CPD is on par with a murdering Argentinian junta.

Oh, and don't forget running over someone with a van like in Egypt.

Here's another pro-tip for you moron: don't step in front of a moving vehicle. Multiple viewpoints of that video are available and it's very clear that people were deliberately stepping in front of a moving van. There was ample room for those people to step aside, no one was shoving them, and the van was moving at a walking pace. Want to protest by stepping in front of a moving vehicle? Guess what: you might get hurt.

Here's something you left out: the police say the driver of the van was punched through the window. You know what? Punching the driver of a vehicle just might fuck up his concentration enough that he runs over someone in front of him. But hey, the police couldn't possibly have their side of this incident, right? Not to mention that the incident and the driver are both under investigation. In other words, not some massive conspiracy and if the driver is found to have deliberately run over someone he could face discipline or even, if it's found egregious enough, criminal charges.

I get it - you wanted this weekend to be some massive protest against The Man and The System. Fact is, though, you're only reporting one side of this story, that of the "activists" and protestors, and doing so in an obviously slanted manner.

Or Threatening to beat "their white asses" and basically looking for ways to fuck over people.

See next post.

I have zero sympathy for the guy who stabbed in the leg one of the cops in those phalanxes and got whacked upside the head and arrested. Sticking a knife into a cop in full riot gear standing next to a couple dozen of his buddies is really kind of stupid.
I don't know the full context of that sorry but I am guessing that was during the kettling?

I don't know what you mean by "kettling", but here's an idea: watch TV once in awhile. Or read the news. Context, for those who don't feel like wading through the links: Around 2pm on May 21 the so-called "black bloc" of anarchists started yelling "what do we want? dead cops" and tried to break through police lines. Protesters were throwing sticks, bottles, and rocks at the cops, who were pushing back and using their batons. In the midst of this one of the cops was stabbed in the leg.

The cops did not start beating on protesters earlier who were peaceably shouting their displeasure. They beat on the people who were calling for dead cops and throwing shit at said cops. Frankly, I don't know how anyone could have missed the cop getting stabbed unless they were getting the entirety of their news from anarchists on YouTube... which seems to be the case here with Saxtonite.

Were some people arrested? Yes. That happens at music festivals and city events, too.
There are critical mass bike rides in Chicago every last friday of the month yet I do not see people arrested at every critical mass event. Speaking of that, I don't think I have seen any arrests at a critical mass bike ride.

Try "Taste of Chicago". Music festivals. And so on. The sporting events tend to have fewer problems - I can't recall problems at any of the marathons, either - but hey, I didn't say "critical mass bike rides" I said music festivals and city events.

Pro-tip: shove a cop, you're usually going to get arrested. Start verbalizing agitating for people to get violent in a crowd situation you're going to get arrested. Break shit that doesn't belong to you and you're going to get arrested. Block traffic too long on a major thoroughfare you're going to get arrested. Act too drunk or high to behave in public you're going to get arrested.
Be independent media? Get harassed

Right.... drive a car up to a protest event and act surprised the cops approach? Gimme a break. Also, it's clear the yahoos in that video are getting their rocks off getting "raided" and are hoping to get some exciting news for the independent journalism merit badge. Yes, the cops were using harsh tones initially but their own video shows that during the search the cops were actually using moderate tones. I didn't see any evidence of abuse there, not even verbal.

Here's a clue: if you're in town during a weekend where NATO is meeting and the media has been saturated with both that fact and the fact that the CPD is in high security mode, getting pulled over is NOT harassment! At the end you have the little children videoing themselves thinking they're in the middle of a big story of some sort. What a bunch of narcissistic twits. And dare I say it? Privileged white boys who have no clue what real police harassment is.

EDIT: Also, I presume you are referring to the Black Bloc. The Black Bloc does not start the violent things, often they are responding to previous violence. Most black bloc demos are nonviolent

Perhaps, but THIS one started with the black bloc yelling for dead cops and throwing shit. Please don't pretend the protesters in that particular case are tragic innocents. They weren't. They were the ones doing provoking on May 21.

Normally, you have to get approval in advance and a permit to hold a parade/demonstration/block traffic in downtown Chicago. This weekend they were just letting folks wander around at will so long as it was just noise and not violence or vandalism. That's actually more lax than usual.
Again, Critical Mass (not approved or permitted!) has events every last friday of the month and the result is better.

Critical mass is people riding their bikes - they aren't sitting in the middle of Michigan Avenue for hours on end. In other words, while they might cause transitory traffic congestion they aren't blocking traffic for hours. Bicycles are also a normal part of the downtown city traffic, a thousand people standing on Adams or State Street waving banners for hours not so much. I can't help but think that CM rides were helped by the former Mayor Daley being a proponent of using bicycles in the city - don't know how the current Mayor feels about it, you might want to stay on his good side.

Or course things could be worse (i.e. 1968 DNC).

Right - which the current CPD was taking pains to NOT emulate, no matter how much the anarchists wanted them to.

See the above links I provided, the other stuff I couldn't find or was too unthorough in looking for a link.

Look, child, when you make a claim you have to support it. Saying you were "too unthorough" is damn close to admitting concession. Don't be a lazy ass, support your claims.

Again, this is stuff protesters personally have told me. They left the events in groups to prevent being harassed or arbitrarily arrested by prople, and mny wore masks for safety (no, there were NOT black bloc).

Leaving any mass event in the city in groups is a good idea. I'm not sure what you consider "harassment". The cops asking you "are you with the mass protest event?" is not harassment.

And what's this bullshit about "masks for safety"? Explain that. Especially as most of the folks we've seen in videos from any form of media have bare faces so apparently this isn't a concern of most of the folks who were present.

I am sure more information will be released later.

Which you will be "unthorough" enough to not look at, based on your inability to support your claims so far.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Its kind of part of the point of police during events like this; posture and hope it works as a deterrent.
It tends to have the opposite effect as people do not like being intimidated.

Oddly enough, the majority of protests this past weekend, despite the ranks of riot cops, didn't seem to have an issue with it. The black bloc were the main troublemakers this time around. The rest of the time folks managed to co-exist with the CPD without trading either insults or improvised weapons.

TC Pilot wrote:By the way, does anyone know why the hell they restricted food, drinks, bicycles, and backpacks on Metra trains... but not the 'L'? That struck me as a completely pointless move.
Metra has historically tended to be more restrictive in things, to an extreme level. That, and given it's commuter rail I think placed it under federal control? (some people mentioned that was it).

Good lord - no, Metra is NOT under Federal control! Where do people get these notions?

The only lines that the Feds could have jurisdiction over would be the South Shore and South Bend Railroad and the Union Pacific North Line that goes to Kenosha, Wisconsin and that's because they cross state lines - even so, the Feds don't get involved and leave it to local control.

Good god, Saxtonite, will you do some fucking fact checking once in awhile?

Here's some more fact for you - Metra and the CTA are two separate transportation agencies (and the NICTD's SS&SB railroad is yet a third) . They do coordinate, and not just because they share railroad tracks in some places, but they're different agencies. They have separate rules. This is not due to some conspiracy or meanness on the part of The Man.

Also some metra lines did not have those sorts of extreme security, but other metra lines did. Maybe they assumed that more protestors would originate in the suburbs instead of mainly using near north and south side housing as their 'bases'

Given the high proportion of white faces in the agitating groups and among the so-called independent journalists that might not be such an outrageous assumption - suburban doesn't automatically mean innocent. Certainly, motels are a shitload cheaper in the suburbs than downtown. Of course, I don't think they were surprised at the number who simply camped out in the city, either.

But, honestly, I don't know. I don't know why they were more concerned with the commuter lines than the El. Sure, the lines that physically go under McCormick place, it made sense for those to be restricted if any were going to be treated that way, but the others? It's puzzling to me. But given how parts of the city have overreacted at times in the past it might just have been bureaucratic ass-covering.

Enforcing that sort of shit on the el lines is amazingly hard to do. Sometimes people jump the turnstiles after all!

It's not like Metra and NICTD are immune to that sort of thing, too. In fact, you don't have to jump anything on a Metra train, you just have to avoid the conductors which people have done by the simple expedient of spending the entire trip in the toilet.

Broomstick wrote: I though the restrictions were on the South Shore and the Metra Electric line that pass under McCormick Place and not every single Metra line, but I might be wrong on that.
local media showed they were enforcing it on one of the west routes, I think the Elgin or harvard route.

OK, that's plausible enough. I think I recall hearing something about food and drink being banned on all lines "including coffee" as the TV talking heads said repeatedly but since I no longer commute into the city daily it wasn't something I was taking notes on.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-23 08:46am

You posted this link in regards to the Bridgeport raid – which, by the way, was PRIOR to NATO weekend and demonstrations so I think you're an idiot for posting it as some sort of support saying the police were intimidating the crowds of protesters – but let's take a look at this “journalism”.

- The first paragraph states the police had an “unsigned warrant”. The third paragraph says that “witnesses” said the police did not have a warrant. Which is it?

- Apparently the crux of the dispute comes down to empty beer bottles. Yes, you use empty beer bottles to bottle the brew when it's done. You can also use empty beer bottles to make molotov cocktails. In fact, the original molotov cocktails of the Finnish Winter War were, in fact, made with beer bottles. Stating empty bottles were for beer does not automatically make them innocent. Third to the last paragraph says it's not credible the CPD doesn't know the difference between beer bottles and molotov cocktails. Trust me, the CPD knows beer, but only a naïve dickhead is unuable to comprehend that beer bottles can also be used to make molotov cocktails.

- I have stated that I'm not at all convinced that the Bridgeport guys are guilty. However, an alternative to the “police are evil” theory is that a neighbor reported the “terrorists” in the neighborhood because neighbors can be shitheads. Or maybe the organized crime unit of the CPD are a bunch shitheads. Or maybe both.

This link compares the Bridgeport guys with the “disappeared” of places like Argentina. Nevermind that they actually were located in 12 hours. It also implies that there is something sinister in not charging people within 24 hours.

- Comparing someone held by the CPD who is found and contacted by lawyers to the desaparecidos is, frankly, outrageous. Desaparecidos were kidnapped, held in some cases for years with no contact outside their captors, tortured in at least some cases, then killed. These guys were arrested and held but not tortured and not hidden away for years. It is, frankly, insulting to the actual desaparecidos.

- Police can, in fact, hold you up to 24 hours without charges. This is nothing new.

Oh, here's a good one - Cops make traffic stop, are bad guys. Again, we can't know the full details here, but I gather these folks were from out of town and got turned around or missed an exit off the Dan Ryan (very easy in that part of the city). Cops see some out of towners who might be lost and go to investigate. This isn't necessarily sinister, as there are some rough areas located not too far away (frankly, a lot of people consider Bridgeport a rough area, and many blacks still consider it a no-go zone due to the white shitheads that historically have occupied it).

The cops actually start out pretty polite in this exchange. And dude, yes, they CAN pull you over or approach you when you are in public. There isn't anything sinister in that. Have you never been pulled over? Cops come over, you say “Good day, officer, is something wrong?” If you're lost, say “I'm lost, can you help me get back to the freeway/my hotel/my friend's amateur beer-brewing operation?”

I also can't help but note the edit cuts in this. We don't see the whole story here. Even where we do, not all of the conversation is captioned. After one of the guys says “we're going to occupy Chicago” what the policman says after isn't captioned, although part of it - “they say they're tourists” - is pretty clear. So, the guys in the car get all their dialogue typed up, but not the cops – gee, could there be an attempt to slant things there?

Here's another tip: if you're talking to the cops keep your story straight. Don't say “we're tourists” then say “we're political protesters”. It confuses the poor, dumb, pigs. Confused police get suspicious.

Also, when they're searching your vehicle shut the fuck up. Don't get “cute” about “if you find any money let us know” because cops aren't hired for their sense of humor.

Oh, and that “beat your white asses” comment – let's put this in context. Apparently, “tourists” and cops were discussing the infamous riots/beat downs of 1968. Passenger says “you know that was a race issue, right?” Cop says “no, take the race out of it.” Passenger reply: “you know that it was”. Cop: “No, it was not”. Another cop: “OK, now we'll beat your white asses.”

Let me throw in something here: the passengers might be referring to the West Side riots of April 1968 sparked by the assassination of Martin Luther King. The cops might be referring to the National Democratic Convention protests of August, 1968 where the cops were shown brutally beating protesters. Unless we know which is being discussed – either would fit the context – it's hard to know if that “beat your white asses” is a threat or sarcasm. Which is yet another reason not to get “cute” with the cops or making your answers to their questions any more complicated than “yes, sir” and “no, sir”.

In fact, the cops are pretty savy here, one of them even says “save it up for the protest”. Which is not a bad idea. Frankly, I don't see an “ooo, CPD are big, bad, bulllies here!” situation. Another pro-tip: don't engage cops in a political argument while they're searching your car. Seriously, the kiddies make this sound like the cops screamed “up against the wall, motherfucker!” and out came the billy clubs. That's not what happened. And if the cops wanted to “fuck” with them they could have done lots more than than end the conversation with “see you at the NATO protests”.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-23 02:12pm

Broomstick wrote: You fucking, mewling moron - May 20-21 is NOT the "middle of summer". Exaggerate much?

It was in the motherfucking eighties in one of those days. That is fucking hot. That is as hot as the motherfucking summer, you stupid fucking bitch.

On top of that, I have seen the CPD in black before, but then, I'm over the age of 12. It's called "riot gear". I understand that you're trying to imply something sinister based solely on their uniform color. Me, I'm not afraid of a color.

Fun fact. I am 21. And I mentioned I have rarely, if ever seen Chicago Police in black before. And just as a protip: There were police officers wearing riot gear without wearing all-black. Here's police IN 'riot gear' WITHOUT wearing all-black. ooooh

I have not heard of this. Provide details.

Quite literally one occupy member was at a gas station in chicago's north side providing gas for his friends, as apparently they were low on gas. The police pulled them over and harassed them (i.e. the cursing). They THEN went to check the camera. The camera showed proof that they were not stealing the gas, and then that charge was pulled on them

Anecdote does not equal data. I have had people "personally" tell me all manner of things.

So the links I posted for at least some of the things does not apply? How niiiice.

The comparison implies the CPD were intent on political murder, which is the masturbatory wet dream of fantasizing anarchists and wannabe-commmies. No charges for 24 hours? Dude, that's perfectly legal and normal. The police can, in fact, hold you up to 24 hours without filing charges. This is nothing new, but perhaps you are 12 and ignorant of the law. But hey, let's repeat "journalism" that is also ignorant of that fact and uses to imply the CPD is on par with a murdering Argentinian junta.

Again, I am 21. And the simple fact is that the National Lawyers Guild felt there was something wrong with this to the point that they looked ino it. What, are you going to fucking claim the NLG is all 12 years old too?

Here's another pro-tip for you moron: don't step in front of a moving vehicle. Multiple viewpoints of that video are available and it's very clear that people were deliberately stepping in front of a moving van. There was ample room for those people to step aside, no one was shoving them, and the van was moving at a walking pace. Want to protest by stepping in front of a moving vehicle? Guess what: you might get hurt.

Here's another tip you stupid cunt. Don't drive through a fucking crowd and expect everyone will get out of the way in time. And as a fun fact, THIS VID shows they were fucking confused and trying to get out of the area. And I mean the FIRST video in dark, not the second video as I know you will try to directly link them together.

As a matter of fact: That van was NOT "moving at a walking place" and pretty crowded and the video I linked shows you as a bald-faced ass lia.r

Here's something you left out: the police say the driver of the van was punched through the window. You know what? Punching the driver of a vehicle just might fuck up his concentration enough that he runs over someone in front of him. But hey, the police couldn't possibly have their side of this incident, right?

It's funny. Your insults seem to imply you're not giving "their side" but deliberately fellating the police' actions over fucking everything. And I know you'll try to go "oh I'm being melodramatic". So.

I get it - you wanted this weekend to be some massive protest against The Man and The System. Fact is, though, you're only reporting one side of this story, that of the "activists" and protestors, and doing so in an obviously slanted manner.

What the fuck do you expect me to do? GO and parrot the official police line? God forbid someone states alternate viewpoints and provides links.

Here is what you said earlier:

Were they harassed and potentially arrested falsely? It is certainly a possibility. If it did occur by all means call the cops to account for their actions.

I don't know what you mean by "kettling",

here

but here's an idea: watch TV once in awhile.

Funny. i did that for some of the days of the summit. I also watched the livestream videos BY people there.You know, the people in the protests. Not the media which gets its' slant in in lot of cases.

Or read the news. Context, for those who don't feel like wading through the links: Around 2pm on May 21 the so-called "black bloc" of anarchists started yelling "what do we want? dead cops" and tried to break through police lines. Protesters were throwing sticks, bottles, and rocks at the cops, who were pushing back and using their batons. In the midst of this one of the cops was stabbed in the leg.

Heh. I read those links. There is nothing stated about the black bloc chanting: "What do we want: dead cops". Or that the protesters started throwing shit at people before they were counter-attacked (most statements say the throwing shit and whatnot starts AFTERWARD, but that's not linked here either.)

The cops did not start beating on protesters earlier who were peaceably shouting their displeasure. They beat on the people who were calling for dead cops and throwing shit at said cops. Frankly, I don't know how anyone could have missed the cop getting stabbed unless they were getting the entirety of their news from anarchists on YouTube... which seems to be the case here with Saxtonite.

Again, or they were at the event themselves, at least some of the events and listening to livefeeds as well as other things which were not supplied by "anarchists".

Try "Taste of Chicago". Music festivals. And so on. The sporting events tend to have fewer problems - I can't recall problems at any of the marathons, either - but hey, I didn't say "critical mass bike rides" I said music festivals and city events.

I made the comparison as at least during Monday, and during Thursday/Friday the marches had a bit of a critical mass-esque mentality to them. Randomly going through the streets, growing like a snowball, directed by the people themselves with groups branching off and on, etc.

Right.... drive a car up to a protest event and act surprised the cops approach? Gimme a break. Also, it's clear the yahoos in that video are getting their rocks off getting "raided" and are hoping to get some exciting news for the independent journalism merit badge. Yes, the cops were using harsh tones initially but their own video shows that during the search the cops were actually using moderate tones. I didn't see any evidence of abuse there, not even verbal.

I am not sure, but that does not seem to be in the main protest area. Also interestingly, someone on youtube said the opposite.

This video really shows how big of pussies these self proclaimed journalists are

Here's a clue: if you're in town during a weekend where NATO is meeting and the media has been saturated with both that fact and the fact that the CPD is in high security mode, getting pulled over is NOT harassment! At the end you have the little children videoing themselves thinking they're in the middle of a big story of some sort. What a bunch of narcissistic twits. And dare I say it? Privileged white boys who have no clue what real police harassment is.

Well, I was talking to black people there and they did not like the behavior of the people. One guy on the el claimed homeland security was harassing him outside a McDonald's in the city core. Again, this is hearsay, not hard evidence as I admitted in the earlier post.

Critical mass is people riding their bikes - they aren't sitting in the middle of Michigan Avenue for hours on end. In other words, while they might cause transitory traffic congestion they aren't blocking traffic for hours. Bicycles are also a normal part of the downtown city traffic, a thousand people standing on Adams or State Street waving banners for hours not so much. I can't help but think that CM rides were helped by the former Mayor Daley being a proponent of using bicycles in the city - don't know how the current Mayor feels about it, you might want to stay on his good side.

I believe that there was some controversy with that, and some critical massers told me there were raids in he early days, but I have not seen any. Note ive done that 'on/off' since 2010 though (critical mass bikeriding).

Look, child, when you make a claim you have to support it. Saying you were "too unthorough" is damn close to admitting concession. Don't be a lazy ass, support your claims.

Again. There were what people told me themselves. I posted backup links to provide more context for what I can find. You can treat my lack of links as a "concession" due to the simple fact that I do not have hard evidence on me and reported my personal stories with other people with whatever sources I can find.

Happy now?

Leaving any mass event in the city in groups is a good idea. I'm not sure what you consider "harassment". The cops asking you "are you with the mass protest event?" is not harassment.

They were afraid of being asked questions and arrested afterwards after being put in an incriminating position if alone

And what's this bullshit about "masks for safety"? Explain that. Especially as most of the folks we've seen in videos from any form of media have bare faces so apparently this isn't a concern of most of the folks who were present.

One person was a camera person which went around the city taking photographs of everything for the summit and also was involved with radio stuff (the blogspot I linked above). I believe he did not want to be identified. Personally I did not wear a mask as I had no real need, but as someone pointed out "it doesnt matter if you do anything illegal, technically, just being in this march puts you under suspicion". And as someone said, what if the person in the street marching with you works for the Chicago Board of Trade, or the Chicago Police, or something? They don't want to deal with any ramifications of being in a march. Given stuff like this, for safety. Especially in a protest situation where they might be afraid of being fired after an arrest.

It's not like Metra and NICTD are immune to that sort of thing, too. In fact, you don't have to jump anything on a Metra train, you just have to avoid the conductors which people have done by the simple expedient of spending the entire trip in the toilet.

LOL. I forgot about that trick. You have personal experience with that don't you

EDIT: And before you say the movement was completely biased against the police, you're wrong. There were plenty of protesters who talked to the police nicely and the police was nice to them. There were people who congratulated police who refused to arrest non violent protesters.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-23 06:51pm

Saxtonite wrote:
Broomstick wrote: You fucking, mewling moron - May 20-21 is NOT the "middle of summer". Exaggerate much?
It was in the motherfucking eighties in one of those days. That is fucking hot. That is as hot as the motherfucking summer, you stupid fucking bitch.

Where are you from, Antarctica? It's gets up to 100 in Chicago in the summer. 80's is late spring/early fall. Or are you new to the area? I've lived in the Chicago area longer than you've been alive. 80's is nothing unusual and hardly the height of summer.

On top of that, I have seen the CPD in black before, but then, I'm over the age of 12. It's called "riot gear". I understand that you're trying to imply something sinister based solely on their uniform color. Me, I'm not afraid of a color.
Fun fact. I am 21. And I mentioned I have rarely, if ever seen Chicago Police in black before.

And I'm more than twice your age and I have seen it multiple times. I'm so glad you're legal to drink in the city, now finish growing the fuck up.

And just as a protip: There were police officers wearing riot gear without wearing all-black. Here's police IN 'riot gear' WITHOUT wearing all-black. ooooh

And you're point is? The main protective gear is black. On a hot day they stripped off the long sleeves. That poses some risk, of course, but so does overheating in body armor.

I have not heard of this. Provide details.
Quite literally one occupy member was at a gas station in chicago's north side providing gas for his friends, as apparently they were low on gas. The police pulled them over and harassed them (i.e. the cursing). They THEN went to check the camera. The camera showed proof that they were not stealing the gas, and then that charge was pulled on them

OK... I'm still not clear on the problem here.

Was it a legal proper gas can? Why was he using a gas can to "supply" gas to his friends at a gas station, why couldn't his friends use the gas pump at said station? Why was there any suspicion of them stealing the gas? Most places these days you have to pay in advance or use a card at the pump before the machinery even turns on. What, exactly, was he doing with the gas can? Was he dispensing gas in a hazardous manner?

Anecdote does not equal data. I have had people "personally" tell me all manner of things.
So the links I posted for at least some of the things does not apply? How niiiice.

Saying "a friend told me...." or "a friend of a friend told me..." does not constitute proof. Linked to blogs and statements that essentially amount to the same does not constitute proof. Some of the video you've linked to might constitute proof except what it shows is ambiguous.

The comparison implies the CPD were intent on political murder, which is the masturbatory wet dream of fantasizing anarchists and wannabe-commmies. No charges for 24 hours? Dude, that's perfectly legal and normal. The police can, in fact, hold you up to 24 hours without filing charges. This is nothing new, but perhaps you are 12 and ignorant of the law. But hey, let's repeat "journalism" that is also ignorant of that fact and uses to imply the CPD is on par with a murdering Argentinian junta.
Again, I am 21. And the simple fact is that the National Lawyers Guild felt there was something wrong with this to the point that they looked ino it. What, are you going to fucking claim the NLG is all 12 years old too?

Even prior to the weekend the NLG stated they would provide legal representation to anyone arrested in connection with NATO protests. Anyone. They are merely fulfilling their promise, and doing what lawyers are paid to do - trying to spin things to favor their clients. A man's lawyer is not an unbiased source of information about his activities.

Here's another pro-tip for you moron: don't step in front of a moving vehicle. Multiple viewpoints of that video are available and it's very clear that people were deliberately stepping in front of a moving van. There was ample room for those people to step aside, no one was shoving them, and the van was moving at a walking pace. Want to protest by stepping in front of a moving vehicle? Guess what: you might get hurt.
Here's another tip you stupid cunt. Don't drive through a fucking crowd and expect everyone will get out of the way in time. And as a fun fact, THIS VID shows they were fucking confused and trying to get out of the area. And I mean the FIRST video in dark, not the second video as I know you will try to directly link them together.

As a matter of fact: That van was NOT "moving at a walking place" and pretty crowded and the video I linked shows you as a bald-faced ass lia.r

Looks to me like a bunch of asshats are banging on the front of a van instead of getting their asses out of the way of it. I don't see "confused" there at all.

If the driver was, actually, mowing people down there would have been a lot more people hurt.

It's funny. Your insults seem to imply you're not giving "their side" but deliberately fellating the police' actions over fucking everything. And I know you'll try to go "oh I'm being melodramatic". So.

You are being melodramatic. YOU aren't giving the other side's a.k.a. the police's side at all. Period. You've already concluded they're in the wrong.

I'm not on the police's side either, but since you insist on ignoring one side to this story completely someone must supply the counter facts. You sure as hell aren't going to.

I get it - you wanted this weekend to be some massive protest against The Man and The System. Fact is, though, you're only reporting one side of this story, that of the "activists" and protestors, and doing so in an obviously slanted manner.
What the fuck do you expect me to do? GO and parrot the official police line? God forbid someone states alternate viewpoints and provides links.

I want you to fucking THINK you asshole. Don't accept ANYONE's statement or "evidence" as unqualified truth without corroborating evidence and objective facts. You should trust the "independent" journalists no more than you trust the mainstream media. Question everyone, not just the people you don't like.

Seriously - WHY should you trust anyone reporting on last weekend's events? Every last fucking person their had their own bias and agenda.

but here's an idea: watch TV once in awhile.
Funny. i did that for some of the days of the summit. I also watched the livestream videos BY people there.You know, the people in the protests. Not the media which gets its' slant in in lot of cases.

The mainstream media had reporters at the events, too, and a number of them got knocked down and shoved around, sent raw footage over the airwaves, and so forth. If you didn't notice that you weren't paying attention.

The cops did not start beating on protesters earlier who were peaceably shouting their displeasure. They beat on the people who were calling for dead cops and throwing shit at said cops. Frankly, I don't know how anyone could have missed the cop getting stabbed unless they were getting the entirety of their news from anarchists on YouTube... which seems to be the case here with Saxtonite.
Again, or they were at the event themselves, at least some of the events and listening to livefeeds as well as other things which were not supplied by "anarchists".

Yeah, yeah, yeah - we get it, the "real" protesters weren't doing anything wrong or being unpleasant that was all done by... some other people. Who were at the protests. Shouting. But they weren't "real" protesters and they weren't part of the "real" crowd even though they were in the "real" crowd.

Grow the fuck up and realize that during any large gathering of people you have trouble makers and people who want to start a fight.

Right.... drive a car up to a protest event and act surprised the cops approach? Gimme a break. Also, it's clear the yahoos in that video are getting their rocks off getting "raided" and are hoping to get some exciting news for the independent journalism merit badge. Yes, the cops were using harsh tones initially but their own video shows that during the search the cops were actually using moderate tones. I didn't see any evidence of abuse there, not even verbal.
I am not sure, but that does not seem to be in the main protest area.

You're not sure. You know what? I'm not sure either, despite living in or around Chicago for over 30 years. My spouse isn't sure either and he's from fucking Bridgeport, lived in the city itself over 40 years, and in the area over 50. You know why no one is sure? There isn't enough fucking information in the video. We can't identify where they are. There are cuts in the filming (either editing or the feeds turning on/off). There is too little information to know exactly where they are in the raw footage, and too much discontinuity to know what's really going on.

What IS clear, though, is that these asshats think they're important enough to "raid" and also think they're big-time indie journalists or something.

That's why I want you to fucking THINK, jackass. What motivations or bias could the reporters have here? What might we be missing?

I believe that there was some controversy with that, and some critical massers told me there were raids in he early days, but I have not seen any. Note ive done that 'on/off' since 2010 though (critical mass bikeriding).

Yes, I remember the initial rides as I was still living in Chicago and working in the Loop at that time. Initial concerns revolved around crowd control, safety, and traffic flow. You fuck up rush hour commuting for the Loop you inconvenience around 300,000 people. Hence the so-called "raids", which were the authorities saying no, you can't interfere with people trying to get home at the end of the work day.

The bikers do, of course, have a right to go through the Loop. The current cooperation by the police in regards to traffic control is a recognition of that. However, if the bikers all decided to park in a major intersection you better believe there would be repercussions.

Leaving any mass event in the city in groups is a good idea. I'm not sure what you consider "harassment". The cops asking you "are you with the mass protest event?" is not harassment.
They were afraid of being asked questions and arrested afterwards after being put in an incriminating position if alone

They should fear being mugged if alone - really, that's more likely than police brutality.

It's not like Metra and NICTD are immune to that sort of thing, too. In fact, you don't have to jump anything on a Metra train, you just have to avoid the conductors which people have done by the simple expedient of spending the entire trip in the toilet.
LOL. I forgot about that trick. You have personal experience with that don't you

There are a couple other spots that work, too. The competition for toilets can be fierce and not all lines have them.

I rode the trains almost daily for 24 years. I still use them occasionally.

EDIT: And before you say the movement was completely biased against the police, you're wrong. There were plenty of protesters who talked to the police nicely and the police was nice to them. There were people who congratulated police who refused to arrest non violent protesters.

Oh, sure - most of the police and most of the protesters had no problems with people exercising their rights or doing their jobs, and didn't want any trouble. That doesn't mean there weren't some bad apples in the crowd. On both sides.

Wake up, junior - there ARE people who are troublemakers and who went there hoping for a riot. It's the duty of the cops to protect the non-violent good guys from the rabble-rousers and riot-inciters.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2012-05-23 08:34pm

I have to echo Broomsticks point about the heat as being especially moronic. I have lived in IL for 27 years and in Chicago itself for 3 and mid 80s isn't hot by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, it ain't even hot enough to go roofin' yet; you need at least 90s to do that

I also want to point out that you are displaying incredible bias in assuming sinister motives on the part of the police. Police officers are not some type of fascistic automaton but are just people doing their job, with all the various levels of competence and assholishness that comes with any people doing any job. The fact that some people may have been mistreated by the police is not a proof of systematic malice on the part of the CPD, if anything the comparison of the numbers arrested versus the total number of officers on scene and protestors present seems to indicate that any malicious activity on the police's part was isolated and probably within expected distribution of jackassery that can be expected from any organized group.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-23 11:52pm

Broomstick wrote: Where are you from, Antarctica?

Chicago. The city proper. South Side. I have lived in this city my entire life. I am aware of the city's climate.

. Or are you new to the area? I've lived in the Chicago area longer than you've been alive.

My family has lived in this city since the 1940s "Second Great Migration" where my grandparents immigrated here and we still own the first house we bought after moving to the city.

It's gets up to 100 in Chicago in the summer. 80's is late spring/early fall.

The highest ive seen it get in the past few years was 90s during the summer for a few days. I don't remember 100* heat wave since 1995 when all the people died from heat exhaustion etc.

And I'm more than twice your age and I have seen it multiple times.

Asked someone around your age who works for the illinois state government right now who has lived in the city her entire life.....and she says no she hasn't. Funny how that works.

I'm so glad you're legal to drink in the city, now finish growing the fuck up.

Do you enjoy fellating the police so much? You seem to get off to their squirms of orgasm.

And you're point is? The main protective gear is black. On a hot day they stripped off the long sleeves. That poses some risk, of course, but so does overheating in body armor.

Goalpost moving:

your earlier post wrote: On top of that, I have seen the CPD in black before, but then, I'm over the age of 12. It's called "riot gear". I understand that you're trying to imply something sinister based solely on their uniform color. Me, I'm not afraid of a color.

You went from "it's 'riot gear'" now to "the main 'protective gear' is black." And to point out, the officers in all black had a totally different uniform on than the officers I showed not in all black.

Was it a legal proper gas can?

Technically, no it was no. They were using an empty Ice tea container for the gasoline.

Why was he using a gas can to "supply" gas to his friends at a gas station, why couldn't his friends use the gas pump at said station?

From what I remember, this was circa one block from the station.

Why was there any suspicion of them stealing the gas?

They thought he was illegally siphoning the gas out, presumably given the container he had

Most places these days you have to pay in advance or use a card at the pump before the machinery even turns on. What, exactly, was he doing with the gas can?

using it to fill up his friend's vehicle, presumably enough to get to where they wanted or to a station. I presume he was paying with cash, which is nothing odd.

Was he dispensing gas in a hazardous manner?

Not that I would tell. But again, I was not there and do not have him to interview or explain now.

Saying "a friend told me...." or "a friend of a friend told me..." does not constitute proof. Linked to blogs and statements that essentially amount to the same does not constitute proof.

I'm "getting it from the horse's mouth" to use that saying. The protesters themselves. Firsthand sources. And besides that, based off that your hearsay also does not work as evidence. How do you expect me to get sources and evidence on what happened in Chicago. The mainstream media barely covered the event of war veterans "returning" their war medals. Do you think they'll mirror everything here?

Looks to me like a bunch of asshats are banging on the front of a van instead of getting their asses out of the way of it. I don't see "confused" there at all.

I saw the video and I saw people shocked and banging because they were trying to get the van to stop as they have nowhere to go (someone was able to pull one of the protesters out of the way). The street looks pretty crowded to me.

You are being melodramatic. YOU aren't giving the other side's a.k.a. the police's side at all. Period. You've already concluded they're in the wrong.

Ugh....

your earlier post wrote:Were some people targeted as troublemakers ahead of time? Yes. Were they harassed and potentially arrested falsely? It is certainly a possibility. If it did occur by all means call the cops to account for their actions. Brewing beer in Bridgeport? Hell, that's been going on since the 1800's. I suspect the guy claiming he was cooking an ale and a stout is on the level and it wouldn't surprise me if some busy-body neighbor "reported the terrorist" for shits and grins. On the other hand, there are people who go looking for trouble. If someone has real evidence either way by all means present it, I'd like to see it.

Well, I did. But you're going to say everything the protesters say or record is patently false

I'm not on the police's side either, but since you insist on ignoring one side to this story completely someone must supply the counter facts. You sure as hell aren't going to.

Earlier posts you provided wrote:
While Chicago is very much on the alert this weekend I don't see The Authorities being particularly provocative (unless you view police in riot gear standing next to a crowd but doing nothing as provocative).

The police were, in many cases, acting as living barricades for crowd control. The "posturing" is actually a typical stance taken by the cops while doing that. Sorry you find the color black "menacing". In actual fact, quite a few of the protesters screamed at, shoved, and threw things at those ranks of police and for the most part the police just stood there.

I have zero sympathy for the guy who stabbed in the leg one of the cops in those phalanxes and got whacked upside the head and arrested. Sticking a knife into a cop in full riot gear standing next to a couple dozen of his buddies is really kind of stupid.

Right - which the current CPD was taking pains to NOT emulate, no matter how much the anarchists wanted them to.

Perhaps, but THIS one started with the black bloc yelling for dead cops and throwing shit. Please don't pretend the protesters in that particular case are tragic innocents. They weren't. They were the ones doing provoking on May 21.

Also, it's clear the yahoos in that video are getting their rocks off getting "raided" and are hoping to get some exciting news for the independent journalism merit badge.

They beat on the people who were calling for dead cops and throwing shit at said cops.

Also, when they're searching your vehicle shut the fuck up. Don't get “cute” about “if you find any money let us know” because cops aren't hired for their sense of humor.

You're not on the side of the police....but hey let's argue for the police! Devil's Advocate, or just tsundere trolling?

I want you to fucking THINK you asshole. Don't accept ANYONE's statement or "evidence" as unqualified truth without corroborating evidence and objective facts. You should trust the "independent" journalists no more than you trust the mainstream media. Question everyone, not just the people you don't like.

Seriously - WHY should you trust anyone reporting on last weekend's events? Every last fucking person their had their own bias and agenda.

!!I WAS AT THE PROTESTS MYSELF!!

The mainstream media had reporters at the events, too, and a number of them got knocked down and shoved around, sent raw footage over the airwaves, and so forth. If you didn't notice that you weren't paying attention.

Someone showed me the video he recorded at the kettling & battle at the perimeter. RT microphone was to his left and he mentioned there was an AP reporter there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - we get it, the "real" protesters weren't doing anything wrong or being unpleasant that was all done by... some other people. Who were at the protests. Shouting. But they weren't "real" protesters and they weren't part of the "real" crowd even though they were in the "real" crowd.

Since you're talking about anarchist tactics in events like NATO and G8 summits....

After the fiasco in Seattle, where some activists actively turned others over to the police, we quickly decided we needed to ensure this never happened again. We found that if we declared: “we shall all be in solidarity with one another. We will not turn in fellow protesters to the police. We will treat you as brothers and sisters. But we expect you to do the same to us,” then those who might be disposed to more militant tactics will act in solidarity as well, either by not engaging in militant actions at all for fear they will endanger others (as in many later Global Justice Actions, where Black Blocs merely helped protect the lockdowns, or in Zuccotti Park, where mostly people didn’t bloc up at all) or doing so in ways that run the least risk of endangering fellow activists.

http://occupiedmedia.us/2012/03/the-can ... t-reponds/

Grow the fuck up and realize that during any large gathering of people you have trouble makers and people who want to start a fight.

Oh, you mean police provocateurs? And before you call me a conspiracy theorist, remember the simple fact that that HAS occured in MANY demos and events like that. And that the police has ADMITTED to doing so at these sorts of major events.

Also, yes non-police could have been involved and ready to engage in street battles, to go back to the example earlier - that is part of the point of the black bloc. To engage in battle if necessary. That has not been denied. During that specific incident, the Black Bloc protected protesters and evacuated the wounded from the front lines at this event.

I would like to see video saying the "anarchists" began threatening police and calling for their death before the pushback happened. As facebook posts from protestors say opposite.

That's why I want you to fucking THINK, jackass. What motivations or bias could the reporters have here? What might we be missing?

*sigh* To inform you, "We are change" is a 9/11 truth group/affiliated with the 9/11 truth movement. And yes, many of the independent media are protesters themwselves....but say indymedia does not disguise that fact, and neither do the other protesters and their feeds.

There are a couple other spots that work, too. The competition for toilets can be fierce and not all lines have them.

Other spots? Like what?

Wake up, junior - there ARE people who are troublemakers and who went there hoping for a riot. It's the duty of the cops to protect the non-violent good guys from the rabble-rousers and riot-inciters.

Before you talk about the social responsibility of the police and them being between civilization and chaos, remember this is the police department which murdered Fred Hampton and conducted the Haymarket massacre + DNC 1968.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-23 11:57pm

Dark Hellion wrote:I have to echo Broomsticks point about the heat as being especially moronic. I have lived in IL for 27 years and in Chicago itself for 3 and mid 80s isn't hot by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, it ain't even hot enough to go roofin' yet; you need at least 90s to do that

roofing? As in roof maintenance?

And my family has lived in Chicago since the 1940s, and 80* fahrenheit temperature is hot to them.

I also want to point out that you are displaying incredible bias in assuming sinister motives on the part of the police.

Yes, I am biased. I didn't claim to be the avatar of neutrality. And actually, where did I say "I assumed sinister motives" per se.

Police officers are not some type of fascistic automaton but are just people doing their job, with all the various levels of competence and assholishness that comes with any people doing any job. The fact that some people may have been mistreated by the police is not a proof of systematic malice on the part of the CPD, if anything the comparison of the numbers arrested versus the total number of officers on scene and protestors present seems to indicate that any malicious activity on the police's part was isolated and probably within expected distribution of jackassery that can be expected from any organized group.

I didn't say "the chicago police's structure is totally corrupt and shit". I simply provided cases of mistreatment and abuse by police. Being abused by police =/= "the system is corrupt to the core". IT just says police abused people. Nice flanderization there.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-24 09:14am

Saxtonite wrote:Chicago. The city proper. South Side. I have lived in this city my entire life. I am aware of the city's climate.

Then why did you say something so fucking stupid as May is the middle of summer and 80 is somehow exceptionally hot?

My family has lived in this city since the 1940s

We're not talking about your family, shithead, we're talking about YOU. YOU have only lived in the city since around, oh, 1990 based on your age. I've got 10 more years experience on you in regards to living in this area and I'm not even a native.

The highest ive seen it get in the past few years was 90s during the summer for a few days. I don't remember 100* heat wave since 1995 when all the people died from heat exhaustion etc.

And your memory goes back how far...? Not even 20 years.

High temp recorded in Chicago in my memory was 106 degrees. I remember that. I also remember the record low of -27. That's personal memory, not looking it up on the internet.

But, just to make sure I had the figures correct I looked it up anyway. 106 degrees at Midway – that's your side of the city, chump – in the heat wave of 1995. Of course, you were barely past toddler at that point, it would be unreasonable to expect you to remember the details. All time high was 109, also at Midway, but that was back in 1934.

Is 80 warm? Sure. Even hot. But it's not “middle of summer” hot, and May isn't the middle of summer you mental defective. Most years see multiple days in the 90's during the summer, and hitting 100 isn't that unusual even if it doesn't happen every year. Stop arguing a point that you obviously got wrong.

Asked someone around your age who works for the illinois state government right now who has lived in the city her entire life.....and she says no she hasn't. Funny how that works.

Funny how people don't remember things exactly unless they're important to them. As a pilot weather is something I pay a lot more attention to than the average person.

I'm so glad you're legal to drink in the city, now finish growing the fuck up.
Do you enjoy fellating the police so much? You seem to get off to their squirms of orgasm.

You know what the difference between those two insults are? The one about your age and immaturity is based on a fact, your age. The one you fling is a total fantasy on your part, probably generated while you stroke your dick looking batons and kevlar vests. Here's another tip: clean the cum off your keyboard ASAP because that shit is nasty and can fuck up the key action.

And you're point is? The main protective gear is black. On a hot day they stripped off the long sleeves. That poses some risk, of course, but so does overheating in body armor.
Goalpost moving:

your earlier post wrote: On top of that, I have seen the CPD in black before, but then, I'm over the age of 12. It's called "riot gear". I understand that you're trying to imply something sinister based solely on their uniform color. Me, I'm not afraid of a color.
You went from "it's 'riot gear'" now to "the main 'protective gear' is black." And to point out, the officers in all black had a totally different uniform on than the officers I showed not in all black.

Yeah, the main protective gear in the riot uniform is black. If you weren't flailing in such a pathetic manner you'd be able to comprehend that. Sorry, I'll write slower and in crayon next time so you can keep up.

Was it a legal proper gas can?
Technically, no it was no. They were using an empty Ice tea container for the gasoline.

Not “technically” no, it was no, it was not a proper gas can. God, you are so fucking ignorant...

An empty ice tea container is NOT a legal gas can. It is, in fact, against the law to store gasoline in an improper container, illegal to fill an improper container at the gas pump, and illegal to dispense it from such a can. There's a placard on the pump at the gas station stating it is illegal to dispense gas into anything BUT an approved container. Granted, these aren't felonies, but what they did wasn't legal.

Nevermind that the gas might have been contaminated by any tea that might have remained in the container. Nevermind that gasoline dissolves many plastics and therefore what was put in the car might have been contaminated not only by leftover tea but also dissolved plastic.

Holy fuck – they did break the law. You DO understand that now? The police weren't fucking with them, they actually were doing something wrong here. That wasn't harassment, that was the police doing their job.

Why was he using a gas can to "supply" gas to his friends at a gas station, why couldn't his friends use the gas pump at said station?
From what I remember, this was circa one block from the station.

OK... why couldn't they drive that remaining block to the gas station? Were they also irresponsible tools and ran out of gas entirely in addition to being dumb fucks who use improper gas containers and think the police calling them out on breaking the law is harassment?

Why was there any suspicion of them stealing the gas?
They thought he was illegally siphoning the gas out, presumably given the container he had

Yeah, I can see that now, since MOST people who buy gas to go at the local service station aren't so fucking stupid as to use an old ice tea container, they use an actual gas can because they aren't dumbfucks and don't want fucked up gas in their vehicles.

Most places these days you have to pay in advance or use a card at the pump before the machinery even turns on. What, exactly, was he doing with the gas can?
using it to fill up his friend's vehicle, presumably enough to get to where they wanted or to a station. I presume he was paying with cash, which is nothing odd.

You don't get it. You really don't get it. I don't give a flying fuck how it was paid for, the point is you usually have to pay in advance. And apparently, no, he wasn't using a “gas can” as normal human beings define the term. Had the station attendant noticed your buddy was using a fucked-up substitute instead of a gas can he would have been within his rights to shut off the pump and refuse to sell you the gas.

Was he dispensing gas in a hazardous manner?
Not that I would tell. But again, I was not there and do not have him to interview or explain now.

FUCK YES he was dispensing gas in a hazardous manner. How the FUCK can you not know this? Again, what are you, twelve? Let's review here:

1) Car full of idiots somehow can't drive 1 block to the gas station. Why? We don't know for sure but I'm thinking “fucking idiots weren't paying attention and ran out of gas” is in the top 5 possibilities.
2) Lacking a gas can, one of the yahoos grabs an old ice tea container (OITC).
3) Said yahoo dispenses gas into OITC completely ignoring the warning on the pump that doing that is not permitted.
4) OK, now the yahoo has an OITC full of gas and maybe some ice tea left in the bottom, too.
5) Yahoo walks 1 block with OITC which, if it is plastic, is being dissolved by the gasoline it is full of. Granted, this isn't instantaneous but I've seen gasoline eat through plastic in a matter of minutes.
6) Yahoo pours now contaminated gas into the car, presumably still full of idiots.
7) Other considerations include wondering if this was done properly (aside from wrong sort of container and contamination issues) or if we can add dangers of static electricity build up and possible ignition to the whole mess. Of course, you can get away with this shit multiple times before a spark actually happens and blows your ass up... Don't think that can happen? Watch this fire started by improper handling of gas and can. The nozzle on the gas pumps have been more or less idiot-proofed, there's no way to use them to put gas in a vehicle without the nozzle being properly grounded so the risk is largely non-existent when gassing your car but when you're using a container yes, you can fuck up and start a fire.

Also, modern car engines can handle some abuse, but putting fucked up gas into one is just not a good idea even if it's just a little bit.

Bottom line – yes, your buddies are fuck ups. The cops weren't out of line, your friends were.

The mainstream media barely covered the event of war veterans "returning" their war medals.

Bullshit. Covered multiple times in TV coverage, including video of the veterans actually doing the deed. Mentioned in the Chicago papers. Fucking hell, it was mentioned in the local Indiana papers, too. You're not paying attention.

Also note: eyewitnesses are unreliable. Their perspective is biased. They frequently don't know the whole story or are just fucked up ignoramuses like your friends who are too stupid to understand that yes, they WERE doing a wrong thing with their improvised gas can and no, the cops weren't harassing them, the cops were actually doing their job.

Looks to me like a bunch of asshats are banging on the front of a van instead of getting their asses out of the way of it. I don't see "confused" there at all.
I saw the video and I saw people shocked and banging because they were trying to get the van to stop as they have nowhere to go (someone was able to pull one of the protesters out of the way). The street looks pretty crowded to me.

See, this is where the eyewitness problem comes in – two people look at the exact same thing and draw different conclusions. Sure, lots of people in the street, but I see enough room to get out of the way.

You're not on the side of the police....but hey let's argue for the police! Devil's Advocate, or just tsundere trolling?

Presenting both sides of an issues is not “tsundering”. Child, stop trying to pose as an educated adult, as it seems you are neither.

!!I WAS AT THE PROTESTS MYSELF!!

And....? You were with people too stupid to even properly gas up their vehicle, you obviously couldn't see everything, and you won't even admit that you, like everyone else, carries a bias of your own. Why should I believe YOU?

Someone showed me the video he recorded at the kettling & battle at the perimeter.

Yeah, I know you want to think you're a Mighty Warrior but in fact that wasn't a battle. Not even close.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - we get it, the "real" protesters weren't doing anything wrong or being unpleasant that was all done by... some other people. Who were at the protests. Shouting. But they weren't "real" protesters and they weren't part of the "real" crowd even though they were in the "real" crowd.
Since you're talking about anarchist tactics in events like NATO and G8 summits....

After the fiasco in Seattle, where some activists actively turned others over to the police, we quickly decided we needed to ensure this never happened again. We found that if we declared: “we shall all be in solidarity with one another. We will not turn in fellow protesters to the police. We will treat you as brothers and sisters.

So if one of your fellow protesters is breaking the law or putting people into danger you'll aid and abet their actions instead of ensuring the safety of yourself and others? You realize shit like that is why some other people regard folks such as yourself as being in a criminal conspiracy, right? You're agreeing ahead of time to protect your “brothers and sisters” no matter what they might do. You see a fellow protester stealing shit that's not theirs or kicking an unconscious cop in the head you'll cover for your buddy, right? Because solidarity is more important than laws against theft or murder?

Have you actually thought this through, or are you actually that morally bankrupt?

Also, yes non-police could have been involved and ready to engage in street battles, to go back to the example earlier - that is part of the point of the black bloc. To engage in battle if necessary. That has not been denied. During that specific incident, the Black Bloc protected protesters and evacuated the wounded from the front lines at this event.

So they dragged the stabbed cop to safety? How nice of them. Or do wounded police not count?

What that paragraph tells me is that Black Bloc went there expecting a battle, perhaps even wanting a battle. Fact is, what happened was a scuffle, not a battle, and it wouldn't even qualify as a bar fight most places. Why the FUCK are you saying “engage in battle, if necessary” when you are supposedly planning a peaceful, non-violent protest?

That's why I want you to fucking THINK, jackass. What motivations or bias could the reporters have here? What might we be missing?
*sigh* To inform you, "We are change" is a 9/11 truth group/affiliated with the 9/11 truth movement. And yes, many of the independent media are protesters themwselves....but say indymedia does not disguise that fact, and neither do the other protesters and their feeds.

You didn't answer the question fuckwit. What bias could a “9/11 truth group” have? What bias might a protester have?

(Actually, the 9/11 truthers have their heads up their asses and eat stupid for breakfast, so by bringing them up I can only conclude you've drunk the Kool-aid on that, too. They're about as "reliable", "truthworthy", and a source of unbiased information as the Scientologists or the North Korean government.)

What bias might your fuckwit friends have when using a fucked up container for gas transport they get told by the police they're violating the law? Because in their minds they're know-it-all teens and 20's and there couldn't possibly anything wrong with an improvised container for a volatile, flammable fuel?

There are a couple other spots that work, too. The competition for toilets can be fierce and not all lines have them.
Other spots? Like what?

I'm not going to help you break the law, shithead. Figure it out yourself. Oh, sorry, maybe you don't have the reasoning skills for that. Well, sucks to be you, then, pay the fucking fare like the rest of us. It wouldn't hurt you to obey the law even if you don't understand it.

Wake up, junior - there ARE people who are troublemakers and who went there hoping for a riot. It's the duty of the cops to protect the non-violent good guys from the rabble-rousers and riot-inciters.
Before you talk about the social responsibility of the police and them being between civilization and chaos, remember this is the police department which murdered Fred Hampton and conducted the Haymarket massacre + DNC 1968.

Haymarket – 1886
DNC 1968 – well, 1968, duh.
Fred Hampton execution – 1969

The most recent of those was forty-three years ago. Hampton's Black Panther cohorts now have seats not only on the Chicago city council but also in fucking Congress (Bobby Rush has been in the House since 1993 – pretty much your entire lifetime, child). Times have changed. It's not 1969 anymore (thank god) Most of those who were cops in 1968 and 1969 are fucking dead now, and if not, retired. Today's cops are NOT the same people! But I guess you folks want to go back to the “glory days” of protesting in the so-called “Summer of Love”. I'd go into detail about how fucked up both your notion of history is, and your desire to go back to that sort of happy horseshit, but you are too stupid to benefit from a history lesson anyhow.

Saxtonite · Post by **Saxtonite** » 2012-05-24 12:56pm

Broomstick wrote: Then why did you say something so fucking stupid as May is the middle of summer and 80 is somehow exceptionally hot?

...because 80* is hot, perhaps? Especially in a climate which has a 'humid heat' such as Chicago?

"ooh, but it can be hotter": Well the point is, it was hot to people there.....and it was enough for people to note that.

We're not talking about your family, shithead, we're talking about YOU.

Get raped you fucking cunt.

YOU have only lived in the city since around, oh, 1990 based on your age. I've got 10 more years experience on you in regards to living in this area and I'm not even a native.

How's that experience living in Chicago's South Side as a native in the ghetto and not as someone who emigrated from Detroit Metro at 18 who occasionally visits the Chicago Projects

I can see the experience you have with living in "the chi" it is totally dripping off of you. I'm sure you're going to tell me of the glories of Harold's Chicken, playing in the fire hydrant's spray and going to the corner store with your set

Wait.....weren't you a secretarial assistant who rode yachts and spent large times in the central district while piloting? What do you know about life in the city

The highest ive seen it get in the past few years was 90s during the summer for a few days. I don't remember 100* heat wave since 1995 when all the people died from heat exhaustion etc.

And your memory goes back how far...? Not even 20 years.

High temp recorded in Chicago in my memory was 106 degrees. I remember that. I also remember the record low of -27. That's personal memory, not looking it up on the internet.

Yeah. Funny. My memory goes back longer than yours does in Chicago

here says you spent 15 years in chicago

PROTIP: 21 is a larger number than 15. Fucking Math: How does it work?!

But, just to make sure I had the figures correct I looked it up anyway. 106 degrees at Midway – that's your side of the city, chump – in the heat wave of 1995.

I live in the Wild Hundreds. Also thanks for confirming your location as well. Explains your behavior

Is 80 warm? Sure. Even hot. But it's not “middle of summer” hot

Funny. July average puts it at ~85*. "middle of summer hot".

and May isn't the middle of summer you mental defective.

It's still fucking hot, something you seem to have forgotten. Also, If you prefer, I'll say "in the summer" instead of "middle of the summer".

Most years see multiple days in the 90's during the summer, and hitting 100 isn't that unusual even if it doesn't happen every year. Stop arguing a point that you obviously got wrong.

Oh, the fact that the average temerature in July is say 84* Fahrenheit. Funny, I posted climatological data, even if it's from wikipedia on that.

Funny how people don't remember things exactly unless they're important to them. As a pilot weather is something I pay a lot more attention to than the average person.

One of my interests is weather and climate. A former hobby of mine. I still have the books upstairs....

You know what the difference between those two insults are? The one about your age and immaturity is based on a fact, your age.

YEAH BOI! IMMATURITY - BASED ON A FAKT!

It's so mature to insult people and call them a "fucking, mewling moron" (PROTIP: Insulting people is not considered "mature".)
And pointing out historical facts which have happened in the past = immaturity. God forbid someone who has lived in the city and has relatives who were involved in the 1968 DNC battle as an officer provide examples of police misconduct, no matter how unconcrete they are.

The one you fling is a total fantasy on your part, probably generated while you stroke your dick looking batons and kevlar vests. Here's another tip: clean the cum off your keyboard ASAP because that shit is nasty and can fuck up the key action.

I know that, some people told me about their.....activities on forums. Good thing my keyboard isn't jam-clogged with cum. How would you know that?

Yeah, the main protective gear in the riot uniform is black. If you weren't flailing in such a pathetic manner you'd be able to comprehend that. Sorry, I'll write slower and in crayon next time so you can keep up.

Concession Accepted.

Not “technically” no, it was no, it was not a proper gas can. God, you are so fucking ignorant...

definition of "Technical(ly)"

tech·ni·cal (tkn-kl)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or derived from technique.
2.
a. Having special skill or practical knowledge especially in a mechanical or scientific field: a technical adviser.
b. Used in or peculiar to a specific field or profession; specialized: technical terminology.
3.
a. Belonging or relating to a particular subject: technical expertise.
b. Of, relating to, or involving the practical, mechanical, or industrial arts or the applied sciences: a technical school.
4.
a. Abstract or theoretical: a technical analysis.
b. Of, relating to, or employing the methodology of science; scientific.
5. According to principle; formal rather than practical: a technical advantage.
6. Industrial and mechanical; technological.
7. Relating to or based on analysis of market indicators, such as trading volume and fluctuations in securities prices, rather than underlying economic conditions such as corporate earnings, inflation, and unemployment: a technical correction in the stock market.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technically

Yes. Technically. There is a Ebonics term which applies to this situation. It is ignant. Not "Ignorant". Ignant. You just displayed your ignance right there.

An empty ice tea container is NOT a legal gas can. It is, in fact, against the law to store gasoline in an improper container, illegal to fill an improper container at the gas pump, and illegal to dispense it from such a can. There's a placard on the pump at the gas station stating it is illegal to dispense gas into anything BUT an approved container. Granted, these aren't felonies, but what they did wasn't legal.

Technically, and as stated they used that charge when nothing else would stick. It is a technically but police do not go and cite people for that unless, you know they're going through the legal code for shit to stick on people. Not like that hasn't happened before or anything....

Nevermind that the gas might have been contaminated by any tea that might have remained in the container. Nevermind that gasoline dissolves many plastics and therefore what was put in the car might have been contaminated not only by leftover tea but also dissolved plastic.

Holy fuck – they did break the law. You DO understand that now? The police weren't fucking with them, they actually were doing something wrong here. That wasn't harassment, that was the police doing their job.

Are you fucking kidding me? "Oh, the tea might have fucked up the gas or the container has PLASTIC in it! Arrest him!" Is that your excuse for using state authority to arrest someone? "Oh, it's illegal technically, let's harass someone and arrest him!"

OK... why couldn't they drive that remaining block to the gas station? Were they also irresponsible tools and ran out of gas entirely in addition to being dumb fucks who use improper gas containers and think the police calling them out on breaking the law is harassment?

Yeah, I can see that now, since MOST people who buy gas to go at the local service station aren't so fucking stupid as to use an old ice tea container, they use an actual gas can because they aren't dumbfucks and don't want fucked up gas in their vehicles.

Sorry, bro. Not everyone carries a fucking gallon jug "proper" gas container just in case they run out of gas. Not everyone has a choice between using a previously used tea container and pushing the fucking car to the station, especially if they're tired or whatever. Not everyone is a goddamned chemistry major who has to check the chemical reaction of tea and plastic with gasoline for a few minutes. When you're fucking desperate for gas and has no options, you aren't going to argue over the semantics of "is it legallll" with your friends when the alternative is lugging that heavy-ass vehicle to the station. Have you pushed a car before? Even in the snow while someone tried to get it out of the slush and mud?

And apparently, no, he wasn't using a “gas can” as normal human beings define the term.

funny, as can = canister. gas container, which it technically was. So are you going to keep justifying arresting people because of an obscure law which is rarely enforced?

1) Car full of idiots somehow can't drive 1 block to the gas station. Why? We don't know for sure but I'm thinking “fucking idiots weren't paying attention and ran out of gas” is in the top 5 possibilities.
2) Lacking a gas can, one of the yahoos grabs an old ice tea container (OITC).
3) Said yahoo dispenses gas into OITC completely ignoring the warning on the pump that doing that is not permitted.
4) OK, now the yahoo has an OITC full of gas and maybe some ice tea left in the bottom, too.
5) Yahoo walks 1 block with OITC which, if it is plastic, is being dissolved by the gasoline it is full of. Granted, this isn't instantaneous but I've seen gasoline eat through plastic in a matter of minutes.
6) Yahoo pours now contaminated gas into the car, presumably still full of idiots.
7) Other considerations include wondering if this was done properly (aside from wrong sort of container and contamination issues) or if we can add dangers of static electricity build up and possible ignition to the whole mess. Of course, you can get away with this shit multiple times before a spark actually happens and blows your ass up... Don't think that can happen? Watch this fire started by improper handling of gas and can. The nozzle on the gas pumps have been more or less idiot-proofed, there's no way to use them to put gas in a vehicle without the nozzle being properly grounded so the risk is largely non-existent when gassing your car but when you're using a container yes, you can fuck up and start a fire.

Also, modern car engines can handle some abuse, but putting fucked up gas into one is just not a good idea even if it's just a little bit.

Bottom line – yes, your buddies are fuck ups. The cops weren't out of line, your friends were.

Ugh. So you're saying that due to a minor safety risk that they should be put in fucking jail? And for your information, gasoline has been used in certain plastic bottles without burning through in "minutes" and you admit that might not have happened in this case. Let alone assuming a small fraction of tea in the container would have completely fucked up the engine forever (oh, a few drops of tea). But you know what, that's besides the point. The point was this was all slapped on him retroactively - as a last-ditch thing when they could not pin anything on him after suspecting he was involved with the NATO protests. "But, but it's DANGEROUS. IT could fuck up the car and shit! Put him in jail!"

oh, and just to point out. Given he said it was a convenience store/gas station in Chicago proper I believe the containers were not plastic but looked like this. Or this But again, I dont have him nearby to talk to. If you still lived in the city you'd know those are the two main ice tea canister Arizona makes.

Presenting both sides of an issues is not “tsundering”. Child, stop trying to pose as an educated adult, as it seems you are neither.

I have a college degree

Oh, and just so you know. That wasn't "presenting both sides of the issue. That was 'massive focus on the pro-police side'. And just to point out, "tsundere" is a term from anime, but whatever. I thought you watched anime, so yanno.

And....? You were with people too stupid to even properly gas up their vehicle, you obviously couldn't see everything, and you won't even admit that you, like everyone else, carries a bias of your own. Why should I believe YOU?

Uh, I didn't say you have to believe me. Now did I? I just posted my stuff and stories. You don't have to believe me. I never said that. I just posted information and counter-points to what you posted earlier.

So if one of your fellow protesters is breaking the law or putting people into danger you'll aid and abet their actions instead of ensuring the safety of yourself and others? You realize shit like that is why some other people regard folks such as yourself as being in a criminal conspiracy, right? You're agreeing ahead of time to protect your “brothers and sisters” no matter what they might do. You see a fellow protester stealing shit that's not theirs or kicking an unconscious cop in the head you'll cover for your buddy, right? Because solidarity is more important than laws against theft or murder?

Have you actually thought this through, or are you actually that morally bankrupt?

Funny that the article also mentioned in that case the black bloc defined "violence" as "harming another living being" and intentionally avoided harming people. So you jump to "kicking an unconscious cop in the head" immediately. Hell, the rest of the article you snipped off answers that:

then those who might be disposed to more militant tactics will act in solidarity as well, either by not engaging in militant actions at all for fear they will endanger others (as in many later Global Justice Actions, where Black Blocs merely helped protect the lockdowns, or in Zuccotti Park, where mostly people didn’t bloc up at all) or doing so in ways that run the least risk of endangering fellow activists.

So yes. The Black Bloc groups responded by ensuring the safety of each other, AND if they were forced into "direct action" they made SURE they would do it without harming or putting other protesters into harm.

How nice. The article also addressed this as well:

Successful movements have understood that it’s absolutely essential not to fall into the trap set out by the authorities and spend one’s time condemning and attempting to police other activists. I remember my surprise and amusement the first time I met activists from the April 6 Youth Movement in Egypt, when the issue of non-violence came up. “Of course we were non-violent,” said one of the original organizers, a young man of liberal politics who worked at a bank. “No one ever used firearms or anything like that. We never did anything more militant than throwing rocks!”

This man knew that if the police start aiming tear-gas canisters directly at people’s heads and beating them with truncheons, some of them will fight back. There’s no way to prevent this. The appropriate response is to keep reminding everyone of the violence of the state authorities, and never, ever, publish lengthy denunciations of fellow activists, claiming they are part of an insane fanatic malevolent cabal. This is why most of us are aware that Mubarak’s regime attacked non-violent protesters but are not aware that many responded by throwing rocks.

<snip>

Actually, why limit ourselves to Egypt? Since we are talking about Gandhian tactics here, why not consider the case of Gandhi himself? He had to deal with what to say about people who went much further than rock-throwing (even though Egyptians throwing rocks at police were already going much further than any U.S. Black Bloc has). Gandhi was part of a very broad anti-colonial movement that included elements that actually were using firearms – in fact, elements engaged in outright terrorism. He first began to frame his own strategy of non-violent civil resistance in response to an Indian nationalist who walked into the office of a British official and shot him five times in the face. Gandhi made it clear that while he was opposed to murder under any circumstances, he also refused to denounce the murderer. This was a man who was trying to do the right thing, to act against an historical injustice, but did it in the wrong way because he was “drunk with a mad idea.”

Over the course of the next 40 years, Gandhi and his movement were regularly denounced in the media – just as non-violent anarchists are also always denounced in the media – as a mere front for more violent, terroristic elements, with whom he was said to be secretly collaborating. He was regularly challenged to prove his non-violent credentials by assisting the authorities in suppressing such elements. Here Gandhi remained resolute. It is always morally superior, he insisted, to oppose injustice through non-violent means than through violent means. However, to oppose injustice through violent means is still morally superior to inaction. And Gandhi was talking about people who were blowing up trains, or assassinating government officials, not damaging windows or spray-painting rude things about the police.

http://occupiedmedia.us/2012/03/the-can ... t-reponds/

So they dragged the stabbed cop to safety? How nice of them. Or do wounded police not count?

I honestly do not know. But there are street medics who are at those marches who would have done so, and explicitly have said they would have. Remembe that picture during the contested Iranian election of protesters helping an injured riot police officer and giving him water? Here, I will show it

This is not impossible, for the simply fact that it has happened before.

Why the FUCK are you saying “engage in battle, if necessary” when you are supposedly planning a peaceful, non-violent protest?

Because the "other side" may not want peace, perhaps? What do you expect? People not to being medical kits, running shoes, shin guards or bike helmets and pray the police don't beat your ass to a pulp when that has happened at events before? That worked really well for my ancestors when the police brutalized them. What, prepared defense is "looking for a fight" now? Because I stockpile a weeks' worth of food, medical supplies and beverages I -want- the Apocalypse to happen?

You didn't answer the question fuckwit. What bias could a “9/11 truth group” have? What bias might a protester have?

I did answer the question shithead. I told you they're 9/11 truthers. That's a possible origin of bias these. You know, like them wanting to record police brutality and violence? But hay, you're too fucking stupid to get that. No matter.

What bias might your fuckwit friends have when using a fucked up container for gas transport they get told by the police they're violating the law? Because in their minds they're know-it-all teens and 20's and there couldn't possibly anything wrong with an improvised container for a volatile, flammable fuel?

I dunno. They don't like being harassed by the organs of the state and insulted by said officers working for state organs and arrested for it? Because god forbid people don't like getting fucked in the ass by the long arm of the law. Which is seems you enjoy doing.

I'm not going to help you break the law, shithead. Figure it out yourself. Oh, sorry, maybe you don't have the reasoning skills for that. Well, sucks to be you, then, pay the fucking fare like the rest of us. It wouldn't hurt you to obey the law even if you don't understand it.

I asked you for examples, not your coagulated period splatter on the forum. Oh. Actually that DOES explain things. You're on your period. Wait a minute. Aren't you infertile?

The most recent of those was forty-three years ago. Hampton's Black Panther cohorts now have seats not only on the Chicago city council but also in fucking Congress (Bobby Rush has been in the House since 1993 – pretty much your entire lifetime, child). Times have changed.

Yeah man, the holocaust happened 70 years ago, but fuck THAT! Things have CHANGED, and it doesn't affect the MODERN DAY AT ALL!

Never mind the fact that a shitload of Eastern European countries still are dealing with the ramifications of that era of history. And I dont give no fuck that I just Godwined this thread.

Shut the fuck up. Just seriously. Shut the fuck up. Put a dick in your mouth for all I care, shut the fuck up

Today's cops are NOT the same people!

But they inherited that legacy. The same organization exists. Sure, they don't do it now - but that does not magically erase the past. "Oh but it happened then". And? It still happened. The past affects the present and the future. 1968 affects today.

But I guess you folks want to go back to the “glory days” of protesting in the so-called “Summer of Love”.

I'd actually want an independent or semi-autonomous socialist black republic in the US south which is not part of NATO and africanizes its' culture, and ethnic self-determination for all peoples to choose. But hey, you can automatically assume 100% what the NATO protesters were there for!

I'd go into detail about how fucked up both your notion of history is, and your desire to go back to that sort of happy horseshit, but you are too stupid to benefit from a history lesson anyhow.

Funny. I am a history major. But I'll surely let you go and lecture me on how things have changed and the goals of the panthers are fulfilled with black america having an independent socialist state separate from white americ-oh wait.

Suck my dick, bitch.

Simon_Jester · Post by **Simon_Jester** » 2012-05-24 02:32pm

[blinks]

Saxtonite, I'm having a bit of trouble parsing out your actual arguments from the quote spaghetti and angry rhetoric.

Could you sum them up for those of us in the audience who haven't personally offended you into telling them to "get raped," "suck your dick," and so on?

Post by **Edi** » 2012-05-24 04:36pm

Saxtonite, shut the fuck up. I'll finish up the administrative work of giving you an official warning tomorrow, but for the public record, my recommendation for the rest of the administration is that you get a permanent ban.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-24 08:00pm

In that case I'll refrain from replying to Saxonite.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2012-05-26 08:59am

Authorities now seeking man who slashed tires of police van

Chicago Police released a photo Friday of a man suspected of slashing the tires of a police van during anti-NATO demonstrations on May 19.

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Police said the man slashed the rear tires of the police van about 9:30 p.m. in the 300 block of West Jackson, according to a community alert from Area Central detectives.

Protesters charged that the van drove through a crowd of marchers, and some said they had to jump to get out of the way. At least one person was injured by the van, who his friends identified as Jack Amico, 25, of Staten Island, N.Y.

The man suspected of slashing the tires of the van was described as white, in his 20s or 30s with brown hair and a slim build, police said. He was last seen wearing dark clothing.

Anyone with information about the suspect should call Area Central detectives at (312) 747-8382.

Interesting, in that it seems to indicate that not all the people involved in this incident were innocent victims but at least one was an aggressor. Slashing tires goes beyond free speech and non-violent protest.

Other media outlets in the Chicago area are varying in the details - some say Jack Amico wasn't, in fact, injured at all and others that his injuries were very minor. There are also more reports of the van driver being punched hard enough to leave injuries.

This has been one of the more problematic incidents of the weekend, as a cop delibrately running people down is, of course, unacceptable. On the other hand, a cop under attack trying to extricate himself, and some of his attackers/aggressors being injured during this, is a different picture.

An example of where raw footage doesn't tell the whole story and why even "blatant" examples of wrong-doing need to be properly investigated.

Link to video

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2012-05-26 11:11am

Saxtonite wrote:Technically, and as stated they used that charge when nothing else would stick. It is a technically but police do not go and cite people for that unless, you know they're going through the legal code for shit to stick on people.

You, sir, are a fucking moron.

Using an unapproved canister for gasoline is illegal for a damn good reason, and it's not so people won't fuck up their engines; it's a fire hazard and environmental contamination risk. The police will cite or arrest anyone who does it. Your friends were rightfully arrested for breaking a well-grounded law. Stop crying about it.

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