Why the Federation is secretly horrifying

[FaxModem1]

http://www.cracked.com/video_18398_why- ... fying.html

Very much style over substance, but still funny.

[Steve]

Hitler in a Starfleet uniform, ha!

On the issue of "cultural stagnation", I think the issue in part is A) the writers didn't want to have make fictional works in that world as well as the actual fictional universe they were depicting and B) having the E-D crew interested in things from our area of the timeline allowed instant viewer understanding.

If that had been a "real" dinner conversation and I was at it, I probably would have proudly displayed my nerd credentials by taking both sides of the argument apart.

[Ahriman238]

True, I think they mave have a point in how almost everyone we see is so culturally homogenous, despite the many protestations of Federation diversity. Then again, we know the Federation includes at least one sentient gas-race, so again it's more likely the limitations of the tv format, in both time and budget.

[FaxModem1]

They have a gaseous race? Who are they?

[Broomstick]

Medusans?

[Ahriman238]

Medusans?

Got it in one.

[Morilore]

That "cultural stagnation" point drove me fucking nuts watching DS9. What do we do with the holosuite? Alamo, 1950's spy movies, 1950's bar (inside the real, 24th-century bar!)... I think the worst was when Odo and Kira (neither of whom are human) went on a holosuite date to 1920's Paris. Have some culture, futuristic fictional society!

[Stofsk]

Did... did you just complain they lacked culture because they had a date in a holosuite Paris?

[Batman]

Obviously the real world is culturally stagnant too. I mean there's the SCA, people reenact US Civil War battles, heck a lot if not most of Fantasy RPGs are set in a pseudomedieval setting.

[Morilore]

20th-century Paris. I don't mind some references to current real-world culture, but I wished we had seen more creativity; maybe some attempt to refer to things between the 21st and 24th centuries.

[spaceviking]

I don't know anything about television production, but might they use so much of 20th century culture because paramount has 1920's Paris sets (and the like) laying around?

[Steve]

Also because it's easier for viewers to relate to.

[AMT]

Plus they do. See the Ent "Finale" (shudder)

[RogueIce]

Did... did you just complain they lacked culture because they had a date in a holosuite Paris?

Well, I can kinda see the point there, that Odo and Kira picked Paris over, I dunno, some place in historic Bajor?

Obviously, of course, the out of universe reasons are likely what spaceviking and Steve mentioned (sets being handy, viewers relating, etc) but that doesn't really cover the in-universe reasons why non-Earthlings would pick an Earth setting for their date.

Haven't seen the episode so not quite sure of the context, but yeah, it does seem odd. Then again, you can only do what you have programs for, and if the Feddies have been a fairly major presence on DS9 (I'm assuming this is sometime during the Dominion War?) it would make sense Quark has stocked up on popular "Earth programs" over Bajoran. Maybe he even suggested it to them and they went with it, I dunno.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If it's Odo and Kira, perhaps they picked Paris to experience a culture different to their own? I tihnk this example would hold more water if it were humans from Earth going on a date to holoParis rather than Bajorans etc.

[Darmalus]

I don't think it's any particular choice that is bad, I would like to see some of those places myself. It's just the lack of anything else that makes it stand out. No one mentions going to the 2200 in Luna City New Century celebration, for example. Well, there was that one baseball game Sisko went to, but visually it was indistinguishable from the 20th century. I mean, today you could go to a SCA tournament, visit a 1950's dance thing (sock hop?) then talk about the new book released last week. Star Trek seems to do the equivalent of stopping at the SCA tournament and going no farther, for everyone.

Of course, historical sets are cheap and already made, I wouldn't be surprised if you can get the costumes in bulk.

[FedRebel]

I don't know anything about television production, but might they use so much of 20th century culture because paramount has 1920's Paris sets (and the like) laying around?

It's not that hard to redress sets into something else, they did it a lot with crew quarters in all series for example.

So they could take that 1920's Paris set, change the furniture (with DS9 pieces), change the matte background, and you have a 5 star Alien restaurant.

[Ahriman238]

If it's Odo and Kira, perhaps they picked Paris to experience a culture different to their own? I tihnk this example would hold more water if it were humans from Earth going on a date to holoParis rather than Bajorans etc.

Which also happened in TNG. They did almost a whole episode on Picard taking an ex-girlfriend (now happily married) to a holodeck recreation of Paris, and the sidewalk cafe they used to go to. There was also a plot about a science experiment going horribly wrong and the imminent destruction of the space-time continuum, but that was a subplot. The A plot was Picard meeting his ex again.

[RogueIce]

If it's Odo and Kira, perhaps they picked Paris to experience a culture different to their own? I tihnk this example would hold more water if it were humans from Earth going on a date to holoParis rather than Bajorans etc.

Which also happened in TNG. They did almost a whole episode on Picard taking an ex-girlfriend (now happily married) to a holodeck recreation of Paris, and the sidewalk cafe they used to go to. There was also a plot about a science experiment going horribly wrong and the imminent destruction of the space-time continuum, but that was a subplot. The A plot was Picard meeting his ex again.

Which makes some sense. Picard is French, so Paris (and its history) would mean something to him.

But Odo and Kira are not French, or even from Earth. So why would Paris mean anything to them? I know Odo was in the city for Homefront/Paradise Lost, but he wasn't exactly sight-seeing; and I don't know if Kira even visited Earth, at least prior to whatever episode their date was in. So why Paris and not something from Bajor?

Unless of course they were just aping their Federation peers. Which makes the "Starfleet are the Borg" commentary that Eddington or whoever gave on DS9 scarily accurate.

[Stofsk]

If it's Odo and Kira, perhaps they picked Paris to experience a culture different to their own? I tihnk this example would hold more water if it were humans from Earth going on a date to holoParis rather than Bajorans etc.

Which also happened in TNG. They did almost a whole episode on Picard taking an ex-girlfriend (now happily married) to a holodeck recreation of Paris, and the sidewalk cafe they used to go to. There was also a plot about a science experiment going horribly wrong and the imminent destruction of the space-time continuum, but that was a subplot. The A plot was Picard meeting his ex again.

It wasn't really the subplot. They were both part of the same plot. You're thinking of latter-day TNG, DS9 etc when they started doing A plots and B plots in the same episode. 'We'll Always Have Paris' is about a lot of things, but the theme is about how you can't return to the past (or rather you shouldn't dwell on it) - even in an episode about time travel.

But Odo and Kira are not French, or even from Earth. So why would Paris mean anything to them? I know Odo was in the city for Homefront/Paradise Lost, but he wasn't exactly sight-seeing; and I don't know if Kira even visited Earth, at least prior to whatever episode their date was in. So why Paris and not something from Bajor?

Unless of course they were just aping their Federation peers. Which makes the "Starfleet are the Borg" commentary that Eddington or whoever gave on DS9 scarily accurate.

Holy shit are you guys seriously overthinking it this much? I'm not French, but I'd love to visit Paris. I'm sure they went to a holosuite Paris for a romantic date because, i dunno, it might be romantic? Besides, why would Kira insist on a venue from Bajor? Where's the logic here? Because it's something she knows? Why do people go on holidays to places they've never been before then?

[RogueIce]

Holy shit are you guys seriously overthinking it this much?

Have you forgotten which board you're on?

I'm not French, but I'd love to visit Paris. I'm sure they went to a holosuite Paris for a romantic date because, i dunno, it might be romantic? Besides, why would Kira insist on a venue from Bajor? Where's the logic here? Because it's something she knows? Why do people go on holidays to places they've never been before then?

Yeah but you're (obviously...at least so far as I know) from Earth, so of course you'd think of Paris. Why would a Bajoran (who AFAIK never went to Earth) and a Changeling who went once on business think of Paris as a romantic spot? I mean, I guess the Starfleeters have told them about it and all, but aren't there other romantic spots in the galaxy? Make a Risa holosuite program maybe? Is there no "romantic locale" type of place on Bajor?

Well, okay, Bajor kinda sucks so maybe not. But you know what I mean. Why would non-Earth people go to Earth-based locales and such for their vacations/dates/time off/etc? I get the OOU reasons, and I know you can make up reasons to justify it, but it just makes the Star Trek universe feel...well, smaller that way, y'know?

I guess that's my issue with it. The whole "Federation as Borg" thing is just an amusing bit of lols for me. But yeah, c'mon, ST needs a bit more world galaxy building than going back to Sherlock Holmes and 1950s gangsters!

[Stofsk]

Maybe there is a romantic locale on Bajor, but why would Kira and Odo want to take a holosuite date there? It would be far, far easier to get onto a Runabout, head to Bajor and back in a couple hours. But the draw of a holosuite is literally, you can go places you can't physically go to. So why wouldn't you take advantage of that?

PS, which episode did this take place in anyway? If it's 'His Way', then the 'date' was set up by Vic Fontaine anyway, in his quest to get Odo laid. Kira even said 'hey don't you feel silly having a date on the holosuite'.

[Eframepilot]

That "cultural stagnation" point drove me fucking nuts watching DS9. What do we do with the holosuite? Alamo, 1950's spy movies, 1950's bar (inside the real, 24th-century bar!)... I think the worst was when Odo and Kira (neither of whom are human) went on a holosuite date to 1920's Paris. Have some culture, futuristic fictional society!

Look around. Culture is dead. Everything is a post-modern globalized mishmash. Is anyone going to be nostalgic for the '00s? We never even bothered to name that decade!

[RogueIce]

PS, which episode did this take place in anyway? If it's 'His Way', then the 'date' was set up by Vic Fontaine anyway, in his quest to get Odo laid. Kira even said 'hey don't you feel silly having a date on the holosuite'.

Well, haven't gotten there yet, so that'll show me to judge an episode without seeing it. And also teaches me to never again question the competence and wisdom of the DS9 writers. I should've known they wouldn't let me down.

(Can I still question the competence of the Voyager production staff without watching it?)

[FaxModem1]

Depends on the season. 1-2, probable crap. Season 3, Okay, at best. Seasons 4-5, Good quality television. Season 6, Back to okay, and meandering back to crap. Season 7, Hoo boy, this is bad, even for Voyager.