'Heroic' Syrian troops executed dozens of woman and infants

[wautd]

BBC

Syria crisis: Most Houla victims 'were executed'

Most of the 108 people killed in Syria's Houla region on Friday were summarily executed, the UN says.

A spokesman for the UN's human rights office says witnesses told investigators that pro-regime militias carried out most of the killings.

Survivors have described gunmen entering homes, firing indiscriminately and slitting the throats of children.

The UN statement comes as UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan is meeting President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus.

Rupert Colville, spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told journalists in Geneva that initial investigations suggested that fewer than 20 of the victims in the village of Taldou, near Houla, were killed by artillery or tank fire.

"Most of the rest of the victims in Taldou," he added, "were summarily executed in two separate incidents."

Earlier, survivors who spoke to the BBC said that those who carried out the killings were militiamen - shabiha - from nearby Alawite villages.

Mr Annan called the massacre "an appalling moment with profound consequences".

'Murderous folly'

Ahead of his meeting with President Assad on Tuesday, the former UN secretary general said the Syrian government had to take "bold steps" to show it was serious about peace.

The BBC's Jim Muir, in neighbouring Lebanon, says it is make-or-break time for Mr Annan's peace plan, and he has to get something out of his visit to stop the drift towards a vicious sectarian civil war.

Under the plan, both sides were meant to stop fighting on 12 April ahead of the deployment of monitors, and the government was to withdraw tanks and forces from civilian areas.

Mr Annan is expected to press President Assad to make good on his promises, and much will depend on the position taken by Syria's main international ally and diplomatic protector, Russia, our correspondent adds.

Moscow, which has twice blocked UN Security Council resolutions backing action against the Damascus government, said on Monday that both sides bore responsibility for Friday's massacre.

"Both sides evidently had a hand in the deaths of innocent civilians," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said.

Western leaders have expressed horror at the killings, and the UK, France and US have all begun moves to raise diplomatic pressure on the Assad government.

France is convening another meeting of the so-called Friends of Syria group, which Russia does not take part in.

"The murderous folly of the Damascus regime represents a threat for regional security and its leaders will have to answer for their acts," said President Francois Hollande's office.

Just how low can the Syrian government sink until even Russia and China give a fuck you to Assad? (if ever?)

[Julhelm]

How would you know for sure it was gov't troops?

[Irbis]

What incentive would the witnesses have to say it was done by pro-regime forces if it was done by rebels? Wouldn't that make them abandon any cause rebels can possibly have? Especially seeing Alawites pretty much all support the regime.

It's possible it's fault of both sides, like Russians say, but still, it doesn't change the fact that the government continues to gun down civilians just as two high ranking UN ambassadors try to initiate peace talks, showing how serious they are about it.

[wautd]

How would you know for sure it was gov't troops?

Because the opposition doesn't have artillery and tanks? And even if it wasn't done by the government's soldiers but by militia that supports the current regime, the regime is still responsible for the massacre (for allowing it to happen).

[Block]

How would you know for sure it was gov't troops?

Because the Government's claim that it was Al-Qaeda doesn't make sense.

[Julhelm]

And all of the above is still conjecture. I'd rather we know for sure before we go in and bomb the shit out of the government. It worked so well in Libya, after all.

[Haruko]

My favorite part came when I was watching Deutsche Welle Journal, the German international news program, which showed that the regime denied responsibility for an attack on civilians, but U.N. observers pointed out that only the government could afford the artillery that was used.

I can imagine the excuse now. Obviously, the artillery must have been stolen, or now the rebels are suddenly rolling in with the same model of artillery that the government keeps using!

[TimothyC]

I distrust anything that the rebels are saying to the same degree as the government (why? because they have been caught lying to the international media - and Anderson Cooper [among others] has taken the bait hook line and sinker).

Oddly enough, between the rebels and the government I'd rather the government win (one part the devil you know, one part not murdering the Christian minority).

[Block]

The ideal situation would be for the terrorists to back down, allowing President Assad to restore law and order, and then sit down with the people and hammer out a compromise solution that addresses their legitimate grievances.

Alas, certain arrogant powers around the world have their sights set on regime change, so while they could help mediate the dispute, instead they fuel it.

Would that be the government funded terrorists militia know as the Shabiha? They're sorta the ones perpatrating most of the violence, on behalf of the government, who has no interest at all in negotiating. The people tried presenting their legitimate grievences in a calm manner and got shelled by artillery and tanks for their trouble.

[fgalkin]

I distrust anything that the rebels are saying to the same degree as the government (why? because they have been caught lying to the international media - and Anderson Cooper [among others] has taken the bait hook line and sinker).

Oddly enough, between the rebels and the government I'd rather the government win (one part the devil you know, one part not murdering the Christian minority).

I would distrust anything that NightWatch is saying given that they have been proven wrong more often than the rebels and the government combined.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Block]

I distrust anything that the rebels are saying to the same degree as the government (why? because they have been caught lying to the international media - and Anderson Cooper [among others] has taken the bait hook line and sinker).

Oddly enough, between the rebels and the government I'd rather the government win (one part the devil you know, one part not murdering the Christian minority).

I would distrust anything that NightWatch is saying given that they have been proven wrong more often than the rebels and the government combined.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I've tried to find exactly how Nightwatch is sourced and couldn't seem to come up with anything legitimate.

[fgalkin]

It's the ruminations of one analyst near retirement age. I read it for a daily dose of Bart-Bladism more than anything, as it's hilariously wrong more often than not, and it gives more insight into the minds on US analysts than an actual accurate analysis of the global situation.

To take its word as gospel, as Tim seems to do in regards to Syria, is ill-advised in the extreme.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Eulogy]

Man, even if the government really didn't slaughter those innocents, nobody will believe them. Not that the suspicion isn't deserved, but it looks like this is going to turn into another Libya.

[Block]

Assad doesn't have to worry about meeting Qaddafi's fate with Russia and China on his side. In case you missed how all this started, people were peacefully protesting for reforms and started getting slaughtered and kidnapped. The opposition has no reason to back down, especially since Assad can't be bothered to follow even the basics of the Kofi Annan peace plan. Ceasing to defend themselves means they disappear into deep dark holes or are buried like Hama was. I'm not sure you can call what the rebel side is doing terrorism, in fact I'm pretty sure you can't call it that unless you're being intellectually dishonest.

[Eulogy]

If (when?) Assad keeps butchering civilians, won't that make Russia and China look really bad? Will it tank their reputation if they are seen as protecting an obviously evil and bloodthirsty regime?

[Block]

If (when?) Assad keeps butchering civilians, won't that make Russia and China look really bad? Will it tank their reputation if they are seen as protecting an obviously evil and bloodthirsty regime?

They've been doing it for almost a year now, no one seems to particularly care internationally. It gets portrayed as evil amurika wants more war with brown peoples!

[Eulogy]

If (when?) Assad keeps butchering civilians, won't that make Russia and China look really bad? Will it tank their reputation if they are seen as protecting an obviously evil and bloodthirsty regime?

They've been doing it for almost a year now, no one seems to particularly care internationally. It gets portrayed as evil amurika wants more war with brown peoples!

Well, then, Russia and China will just have to be disappointed when the rebels finally manage to hang Assad from a rusty meathook, and his brass and cadre gets gulaged.

[ChaserGrey]

If (when?) Assad keeps butchering civilians, won't that make Russia and China look really bad? Will it tank their reputation if they are seen as protecting an obviously evil and bloodthirsty regime?

Besides what Block said, Russia and China ran interference for the Serbs throughout the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo- the folks who brought you Srebrenica and the Siege of Sarajevo. Doesn't seem to have done much damage to their reputation, either at the time or since. Why should this time be any different?

Read an interesting news analysis piece today that predicted Russian support, in particular, to be pretty strong and unswerving for the Assad regime for a similar reason it was for Milosevic. Just as Serbia was the last real Russian client state in Europe during the 1990s, today Syria is pretty much the last Russian ally in the Middle East. They're going to care about preserving some influence in that region a lot more than they're going to care about what the world at large thinks of them. The piece also pointed out that a lot of the same people are still running things over in Russia- just as one example, the Russian ambassador to the UN, who was particularly vocal in denouncing NATO intervention in the Balkans, is now their Foreign Minister- so it makes sense to expect continuity of policy.

[fgalkin]

Kosovo =! Bosnia, so it really shouldn't even be brought up in the same breath (there is a reason why Russia opposed intervention in one, and not the other).

An example of what I'm talking about (yes, it's Wikipedia, but it's just a sourced compilation). The US bombed civilian targets in Serbia to support massacres and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. This was NOT a war like Bosnia with a clear villain.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[TimothyC]

I would distrust anything that NightWatch is saying given that they have been proven wrong more often than the rebels and the government combined.

It's useful as a jumping off point to find other sources.

[fgalkin]

I would distrust anything that NightWatch is saying given that they have been proven wrong more often than the rebels and the government combined.

It's useful as a jumping off point to find other sources.

Then why did you quote it verbatum in threads about Syria?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[TimothyC]

Then why did you quote it verbatum in threads about Syria?

Because the majority of the time that I look for confirmation I find it. If you would be so kind as to provide specific pointers to examples of him getting things wrong on Syria, I am more than willing to listen.

[Irbis]

Man, even if the government really didn't slaughter those innocents, nobody will believe them. Not that the suspicion isn't deserved, but it looks like this is going to turn into another Libya.

In case you haven't noticed, Libya and Syria started simmering st the same time, one difference being their dictator lost and was kicked from power, while the other keeps kicking the populace.

Alas, certain arrogant powers around the world have their sights set on regime change, so while they could help mediate the dispute, instead they fuel it.

Yesss, I'm pretty sure Libyans hate the regime change and would gladly trade their bickering about upcoming elections for Syrian bubbling civil war

Democracy might not be ideal solution for Middle East, but dictators just keep the lid on kettle with ethnic group conflicts and keeping them will lead to much worse explosion down the line. The only way to keep "known devil" in charge is to pretty much redraw whole map of the Middle East along ethnic division lines instead of colonial borders, or just accept that removing a few despots now will be most likely least painful solution.

[wautd]

If (when?) Assad keeps butchering civilians, won't that make Russia and China look really bad? Will it tank their reputation if they are seen as protecting an obviously evil and bloodthirsty regime?

Err.. I don't think they have much reputation to loose to start with. And especially Russia will choose weapon sales to Syria and the safety of their marine base over what little reputation they have left.

[mr friendly guy]

here is an interesting thing on the BBC article

BBC News uses 'Iraq photo to illustrate Syrian massacre'
The BBC is facing criticism after it accidentally used a picture taken in Iraq in 2003 to illustrate the senseless massacre of children in Syria.

y Hannah Furness10:39PM BST 27 May 2012
Photographer Marco di Lauro said he nearly “fell off his chair” when he saw the image being used, and said he was “astonished” at the failure of the corporation to check their sources.
The picture, which was actually taken on March 27, 2003, shows a young Iraqi child jumping over dozens of white body bags containing skeletons found in a desert south of Baghdad.
It was posted on the BBC news website today under the heading “Syria massacre in Houla condemned as outrage grows”.
The caption states the photograph was provided by an activist and cannot be independently verified, but says it is “believed to show the bodies of children in Houla awaiting burial”.

A BBC spokesman said the image has now been taken down.

Mr di Lauro, who works for Getty Images picture agency and has been published by newspapers across the US and Europe, said: “I went home at 3am and I opened the BBC page which had a front page story about what happened in Syria and I almost felt off from my chair.
“One of my pictures from Iraq was used by the BBC web site as a front page illustration claiming that those were the bodies of yesterday's massacre in Syria and that the picture was sent by an activist.
“Instead the picture was taken by me and it's on my web site, on the feature section regarding a story I did In Iraq during the war called Iraq, the aftermath of Saddam.
“What I am really astonished by is that a news organization like the BBC doesn't check the sources and it's willing to publish any picture sent it by anyone: activist, citizen journalist or whatever. That's all.
He added he was less concerned about an apology or the use of image without consent, adding: “What is amazing it's that a news organization has a picture proving a massacre that happened yesterday in Syria and instead it's a picture that was taken in 2003 of a totally different massacre.
“Someone is using someone else's picture for propaganda on purpose.”

A spokesman for the BBC said: “We were aware of this image being widely circulated on the internet in the early hours of this morning following the most recent atrocities in Syria.
“We used it with a clear disclaimer saying it could not be independently verified.
“Efforts were made overnight to track down the original source of the image and when it was established the picture was inaccurate we removed it immediately.”

The telegraph article shows a picture from BBC uploaded on 27 may. The article in this OP is dated 29 May, but both are talking about the Houla massacre. So BBC admits to using the wrong image. Going on, one wonders how easy it is to back track the image.

http://tumblr.thefjp.org/post/239259346 ... wrong-year

from the Future Journalism Project

FJP Pro Tip: a reverse image search could have flagged this photo in seconds. Where to do it? We use Google Image Search (instead of typing a search term in the text box select the camera icon which allows you to either enter the URL of an image or upload one) and Tineye (the process is the same).

Now I have no idea if this is true, however since I am not a journalist I am not expected to have the skill of chasing a photograph. However I would expect journalists to follow the source so to speak.

RT is having a field day with the BBC's stuff up

Now firstly, I am not saying Syria's government are good guys by any stretch of the imagination, nor denying a massacre didn't happen (waiting for more evidence). However when you blatantly use a WRONG photograph and think that you can cover yourself by saying, well.... it might be the wrong one, we can't verify it, especially when the photograph is blatantly going to assign outrage against one side, that is just fucking lazy. That is just the most charitable interpretation. I trust people can work out what the most uncharitable interpretation is.

So BBC's reputation takes another hit. I must say I used to think very highly of the Beeb, but recent stuff ups seem to have hurt their reputation. Maybe they should stick to trying to make Doctor Who good again (sarcasm).