Obama's tongue slips, POTUS refers to Polish death camps

[PeZook]

Obama Misspoke On 'Polish Death Camp,' Says White House

WASHINGTON — The White House said President Barack Obama misspoke on Tuesday when he referred to a "Polish death camp" while honoring a Polish war hero.

The president's remark had drawn immediate complaints from Poles who said Obama should have called it a "German death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland," to distinguish the perpetrators from the location. Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski called it a matter of "ignorance and incompetence."

Obama made the comment while awarding the Medal of Freedom to Jan Karski, a resistance fighter against the Nazi occupation of Poland during World War II. Karski died in 2000.

During an East Room ceremony honoring 13 Medal of Freedom recipients, Obama said that Karski "served as a courier for the Polish resistance during the darkest days of World War II. Before one trip across enemy lines, resistance fighters told him that Jews were being murdered on a massive scale and smuggled him into the Warsaw Ghetto and a Polish death camp to see for himself. Jan took that information to President Franklin Roosevelt, giving one of the first accounts of the Holocaust and imploring to the world to take action."

Sikorski tweeted that the White House would apologize for "this outrageous error" and that Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk would address the matter on Wednesday.

"It's a pity that such a dignified ceremony was overshadowed by ignorance and incompetence."

Alex Storozynski, president of the Kosciuszko Foundation, said Obama's comment "shocked the Poles present at the White House and those watching on C-SPAN. ... Karski would have cringed if he heard this."

National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said: "The president misspoke. He was referring to Nazi death camps in Poland. We regret this misstatement, which should not detract from the clear intention to honor Mr. Karski and those brave citizens who stood on the side of human dignity in the face of tyranny."

Anxious to quell the controversy, the White House also noted that the president had visited the Warsaw Ghetto Memorial while in Poland and that he has repeatedly discussed the bravery of Poles during World War II.

The Polish Embassy in Washington, on its website, has a "how-to guide" on concentration camps that states that references to Polish death camps are "factually incorrect slurs" that should be corrected.

The Associated Press Stylebook states that when referring to "World War II camps in countries occupied by Nazi Germany, do not use phrases like Polish death camps that confuse the location and the perpetrators. Use instead, for example, death camps in Nazi-occupied Poland."

Now, I know everyone's tongue can slip from time to time, but damn! Talk about a way to offend the person you're trying to honor. Good thing he's been dead for a while

[madd0ct0r]

looking at the context of the quote, this thing is a storm in a teacup.

[Grumman]

looking at the context of the quote, this thing is a storm in a teacup.

Agreed. For the difference between "Polish death camps" and "death camps in Poland", Sikorski is sounding unreasonably whiny.

[PeZook]

Poles are complaining because the expression "Polish death camps" obviously suggests the camps were run by Poles. Furthermore, as we move away from WW2 being an event from living memory, it becomes more and more important to use proper terminology to combat harmful and damaging preconceptions.

[Irbis]

For the difference between "Polish death camps" and "death camps in Poland", Sikorski is sounding unreasonably whiny.

To be fair, this is Sikorski we're talking about, so it's nothing new, really. I mean, he already compared German pipelines to Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and wants to bomb the only real monument left in our capital, what's little whine compared to this?

[Broomstick]

Poles are complaining because the expression "Polish death camps" obviously suggests the camps were run by Poles. Furthermore, as we move away from WW2 being an event from living memory, it becomes more and more important to use proper terminology to combat harmful and damaging preconceptions.

I can understand that. I also understand that the difference between "Polish death camps" and "death camps located in Poland" isn't very much in many contexts. I can understand the Poles being a bit touchy about it. I can also hear a number of Holocaust survivors and their descendants pointing out there was actual Polish cooperation in regards to the camps. I can equally hear Poles who survived WWII pointing out that a crap load of Poles wound up in those camps and died there, too. I also expect that, given the current President's background he isn't as in tune with the nuances of the situation as some other folks.

Yes, definitely he should have used "death camps located in Poland" as a better phrasing.

[PeZook]

Well, just to be clear: I do think this was an honest slip, rather than a Freudian one revealing the President's true feelings. Many Poles right now are screaming their heads off right now, calling it an insult and disrespect and even our foreign minister isn't immune to it, though he's kinda famous for his love of hyperventillating and hyperbole.

I figure an apology is in order, and perhaps it should be an opportunity to educate people further about the complex situation of Polish occuption and the holocaust - since the media are doing a circus, and all.

[Broomstick]

I agree, this has the potential to be a "teaching moment" but with the modern media? :::sigh:::

[PeZook]

I agree, this has the potential to be a "teaching moment" but with the modern media? :::sigh:::

The circus CAN be hijacked, though. Even now Polish media are hosting lots of historians who are doing their best to give a reasoned and thorough view of the holocaust in Poland, which is how this opportunity can be used.

Because I can see why people in America can see it as not a very big deal, and must be told WHY Poles get so angry when you use this phrase, and screaming about insults and disrespect etc. isn't going to do it.

[UnderAGreySky]

The disheartening bit, to me, has been seeing David Frum go ballistic about this "gaffe" on Twitter. I had begun to hope that Frum would turn out to be a reasonable Republican - whether or not I agree about him on the War in Iraq et al, he I *know* is not batshit insane and has shown a turn to the left (talks about jobs more than the deficit). But now? *sigh*.

[Thanas]

Meh. In German we already refer to auschwitz as "polish death camps" as opposed to the "german camps" like Dachau. Because the adjective here denotes location. I do not think Obama to be that stupid, it is more likely he did the same as many of our historians do. Everybody knows the camps were run by the SS and I think Sikorski should give Obama at least enough credit to assume he had no ill intentions.

Then again, this is Sikorski, and he is a nationalistic shithead reminiscent of the brothers potatos, so....

[Lord Zentei]

The disheartening bit, to me, has been seeing David Frum go ballistic about this "gaffe" on Twitter. I had begun to hope that Frum would turn out to be a reasonable Republican - whether or not I agree about him on the War in Iraq et al, he I *know* is not batshit insane and has shown a turn to the left (talks about jobs more than the deficit). But now? *sigh*.

I'd say that it takes a lot more than a tirade about something like this to disqualify someone from being a "reasonable Republican". Stuff like this is part and parcel of politics, after all. In any case there seem to be plenty of Poles who are pissed off about it, so it does arguably qualify a "gaffe" in practice, even if it arguably shouldn't.

[Zaune]

Meh. In German we already refer to auschwitz as "polish death camps" as opposed to the "german camps" like Dachau.

I suspect a lot of people in Poland prefer to think of all death camps as German death camps, rather than admit that when the Nazis started their pogrom against the Jews, they found willing accomplices in the conquered territories. It's not as though Hitler invented anti-semitism.

[Tanasinn]

Meh. In German we already refer to auschwitz as "polish death camps" as opposed to the "german camps" like Dachau.

I suspect a lot of people in Poland prefer to think of all death camps as German death camps, rather than admit that when the Nazis started their pogrom against the Jews, they found willing accomplices in the conquered territories. It's not as though Hitler invented anti-semitism.

This. Methinks the Pole doth protest too loudly.

What this boils down to is a hysterical misinterpretation of a phrase obviously not intended to communicate what some Poles are pretending it does. It's a non-event that I rather expect is being cynically used by politicians and the media for the purpose of their own gain.

[Keevan_Colton]

The sentence clearly reads as meaning a camp in Poland. It's a perfectly valid English sentence construction and anyone bitching about it needs a swift kick in the bollocks. Thanas is correct to point out that it can be used as a geographical distinction, this is true in English in much the same way as it is in German.

[PeZook]

I suspect a lot of people in Poland prefer to think of all death camps as German death camps, rather than admit that when the Nazis started their pogrom against the Jews, they found willing accomplices in the conquered territories. It's not as though Hitler invented anti-semitism.

Nobody who knows anything about the subject is pretending all Poles were heroes selflessly saving Jews from certain death. There were people who gave Jews up, or only hid them because they were being paid, or even participated in pogroms themselves with not much encouragement. Those themes are present even in popular media, such as TV shows and movies about the holocaust in Poland. There were also pogroms after the war, and before it. Of course, if we're doing the whole "nuance" thing, then you must also point out that the Jewish population in Poland got so large because persecution elsewhere in Europe was much worse, and so the Jews migrated here in the XVI and XVIIth centuries. They began leaving en masse after the war, when government support of antisemitic actions became unbearable (the fact they had somewhere to go to must've helped, of course). Sorting out the property situation regarding their abandonem land and buildings is an ongoing concern.

...but what does this have to do with the camps? Every time they come up, we could take care to dilligently list all sort of antisemitic bullshit perpetrated in every single Allied country. The topic is the camps, the phrasing used by Obama and whether or not it's actually offensive or misleading.

The sentence clearly reads as meaning a camp in Poland. It's a perfectly valid English sentence construction and anyone bitching about it needs a swift kick in the bollocks. Thanas is correct to point out that it can be used as a geographical distinction, this is true in English in much the same way as it is in German.

It may be valid, but it's rarely used and can be misleading, which is, you know, the entire point? If I spoke of 2001 American terrorist attacks in New York, and someone who didn't know a whole lot about recent history read that phrase, what would his first thought be?

Funnily enough, the American Jewish Comittee also seems to think that phrase is inaccurate, misleading and shouldn't be used to describe the situation, as does the Israeli government, UNESCO, and even the freakin' Canadians - so it's not something silly Poles just made up, and nobody who speaks English agrees with. A lot of people seem to admit there are unpleasant connotations to the use of that adjective. And hell, the American Jewish Comittee is hardly in love with Poland and the Polish government.

[Keevan_Colton]

That doesn't work as a comparison because the subject is not a location and has a location also listed for it. Would you object to the term "american factories" to refer to the new plants opened by Toyota in the US?

It's hardly uncommon, while "factories in america" would also be correct, that doesn't invalidate "american factories" which also results in a better flow of the sentence structure.

As for the long list of people objecting, all that means is that a LOT of people need a kick in the bollocks. I never said anything about it being a particular issue of the poles, I said clearly ANYONE.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm with Keevan on this one - for a concrete noun of fixed geographic location, the default adjective parsing s the location. You know to separate the polish camps from the german camps.

The sentence could have been phrased otherwise, and perhaps the construction could even have been elegant, but we're getting into 'my bloody finger hurts' territory here.

[Thanas]

The Jewish organizations are also on Obama's nuts because he dared to criticize Israel on ethnic cleansing.

[PeZook]

Just to be clear, as I wrote, I seriously don't think Obama harbors some secret anti-polish sentiment and is actively working to insinuate the camps were manned and operated by Poles. I dislike that phrasing he used, but can't get THAT worked up about it (unlike some of my countrymen ; you wouldn't believe how much screaming has been going on from the usual suspects).

[Broomstick]

It may be valid, but it's rarely used and can be misleading, which is, you know, the entire point? If I spoke of 2001 American terrorist attacks in New York, and someone who didn't know a whole lot about recent history read that phrase, what would his first thought be?

I disagree. It's actually a common construction in referring to places like Auschwitz. I've been hearing it all my life.

Your point is valid, though - it's easy enough to say that people up through my generation are familiar enough with history to know that the "Polish" in that phrase refers to location, not ownership. Going forward it might be better to remove potential ambiguity from our phrasing.

Likewise, "2001 American terrorist attacks in New York" is not ambiguous now due to the recent nature of the events, but extend the timeline out a few decades yes, it's going to become fuzzy.

[HMS Conqueror]

I'm not a fan of Obama but this is absurd manufactured offence. The wording was indeed sloppy but the meaning inferred was obviously not intended.

[SCRawl]

Would it have been better for the president to have used a more carefully-constructed phrase? A little, yes. Does anyone have reasonable grounds for taking offence? No, I don't think so, for many of the reasons already mentioned. No one who has any understanding whatever about the subject of WWII would believe that the Poles were behind the death camps located within their borders.

[Todeswind]

Is the translation for what the President said into Polish radically different between the two phrases? I could easily understand the uproar if it were more stark of a gaffe once put into polish.

[PeZook]

Is the translation for what the President said into Polish radically different between the two phrases? I could easily understand the uproar if it were more stark of a gaffe once put into polish.

The two sentences sound almost identical, but if what Keevan says is true (that it's an accepted way of referring to a location in English), then they still sound vastly different, because it's most definitely NOT this way in Polish. And apparently some people think it's kinda ambiguous in English, too