OTNG the Bonding

[Ahriman238]

Here you go.

A kid loses his mother on an away mission, and the Enterprise crew must get him to cope properly with her death while contrite aliens try and replace her.

The episode ends with Worf adopting the child, who is never mentioned or seen again.

[DaveJB]

I think what this episode and its production proves is that Roddenberry's utopian ideal wasn't necessarily a problem by itself, but his enshrining of it and refusing to allow it to be questioned in any way was. It damn near killed this episode, and also Conspiracy in the first season (though that did at least result in the neural parasites which the DS9 relaunch novels made strong use of).

In all, while The Bonding wasn't really an especially good episode, what it did do well was demonstrate the skills which Michael Piller and Ron Moore would bring to the series.

[JME2]

I think what this episode and its production proves is that Roddenberry's utopian ideal wasn't necessarily a problem by itself, but his enshrining of it and refusing to allow it to be questioned in any way was. It damn near killed this episode, and also Conspiracy in the first season (though that did at least result in the neural parasites which the DS9 relaunch novels made strong use of).

On that note, I've never understood Roddenberry's refusal to depict conflict between the characters. Didn't he understand it's basic storytelling, that characters don't always agree and that disagreements can be equally dramatic? Or had he bought too much into his bullshit by this point in time?

[Captain Seafort]

Given the amount of squabbling between Spock and Bones, probably the latter.

[Batman]

If memory serves, a lot of what made TOS interesting happened despite Roddenberry, not because of him. If you look at TNG as it goes on, it becomes more interesting the less influence Gene has.

[DaveJB]

The weird thing is that one of TMP's central elements was the conflict between Kirk and Decker (and to a lesser extent, McCoy), and it was one of the few compelling and relatable aspects of the film. I can only guess that when he was kicked off the remaining TOS movies, and Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett took them in a direction he wasn't happy with, he decided to make the 24th century Federation a much different place than what was depicted previously.

[JME2]

If memory serves, a lot of what made TOS interesting happened despite Roddenberry, not because of him. If you look at TNG as it goes on, it becomes more interesting the less influence Gene has.

Which is unfortunately ironic because Berman continued to emulate Roddenberry's directives/views long after his death and, like early TNG, it ended up costing the franchise dearly.

[Stofsk]

I don't know where you guys get that Roddenberry influence on TOS was limited or what made TOS great happened despite Roddenberry. For the third season sure, that would be true, Roddenberry had given up at that stage and couldn't give a shit, but for the previous two? He wrote both the pilots don't forget, and they were each successful in getting the show greenlit. To say nothing of what he did during day-to-day production of the show.

Was he a dick? You bet. Just ask Harlan Ellison. Did people like Herb Solow, Bob Justman, John DF Black contribute enormously to the show and beyond? Yeah. But that doesn't mean Roddenberry was some kind of lame duck who nobody listened to. Hell, the show wouldn't have been made without him.

The reason why TNG's first two seasons were awful were because of things like Leonard Maizlish (Roddenberry's attack dog lawyer), who rewrote people's scripts and generally interfered with the show's production well beyond his purview as Roddenberry's attorney. (I believe there's a story out there that goes along the lines of he was prepared to sink Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, when Roddenberry chose then and there to die) Not to mention Roddenberry was, in general, beginning to decline in his health. Other stuff happened too, like David Gerrold - yes, that David Gerrold, the one who wrote 'The Trouble with Tribbles' - who wrote the TNG series bible, left the show directly because of Maizlish doing the above shit. And there was that guy who was sexually harrassing Gates MacFadden which is why she left in the second season (and only came back in the third after the asshole had been fired).

TNG's development is fascinating as it was a show that started off in almost the worst possible way, with off-stage bullshit politicking and crap that went on for two seasons, and yet it weathered that and came out a good show in the end. Guys like Michael Piller turned the ship around and helped it find its course. Whatever you might think of Rick Berman's creativity or leadership decisions, I never got the impression that he hated Trek and wanted to see it fail. Indeed, he always seemed to me as someone who was out of his depth, and didn't have the kind of experience a franchise like Trek needed. And arguably you could say he was only carrying out what Roddenberry 'would have wanted'.

[JME2]

Whatever you might think of Rick Berman's creativity or leadership decisions, I never got the impression that he hated Trek and wanted to see it fail. Indeed, he always seemed to me as someone who was out of his depth, and didn't have the kind of experience a franchise like Trek needed. And arguably you could say he was only carrying out what Roddenberry 'would have wanted'.

Yeah, to be fair to Berman, part of me doesn't envy him for having to deal with the meddling/pressure of UPN or the Paramount execs. There's plenty of blame to go around for Treks' decline during the 2000's. Berman's not directly responsible and I think you're right, that he did the best he could.

But, he still had a part and it's stories like the phone argument with Behr over the amputation of Nog's leg that really shows how disconnected and conservative his approach was as time went on.

[DaveJB]

I don't know where you guys get that Roddenberry influence on TOS was limited or what made TOS great happened despite Roddenberry. For the third season sure, that would be true, Roddenberry had given up at that stage and couldn't give a shit, but for the previous two? He wrote both the pilots don't forget, and they were each successful in getting the show greenlit. To say nothing of what he did during day-to-day production of the show.

Actually, the script which Roddenberry penned and wanted to film as the second pilot was what would eventually become The Omega Glory. It was Bob Justman who talked Roddenberry into using Where No Man Has Gone Before, which was written by Samuel Peeples (though I would guess Roddenberry did some revisions before shooting).

[Stofsk]

Holy shit. You're right. How could I forget that Sam Peeples penned the second pilot? I must be getting old.

[JME2]

And there was that guy who was sexually harrassing Gates MacFadden which is why she left in the second season (and only came back in the third after the asshole had been fired).

Wait, that's why Gates McFadden left after Season 1? I always thought she was unsatisfied with the direction of the first year.

[Stofsk]

I don't remember where I read that. Where's Uraniun when I need him!

All Mem-alfa says is she was dissatisfied with the state of her character and wanted more screentime and development. However, I suspect Mem-alfa isn't telling the whole story (it hints at 'some bad blood between her and several executive producers' being a possible reason but cites the disagreement and dissatisfaction over her character development as being the cause), but it outright says that she only came back due to support from Patrick Stewart and getting a personal invitation from Rick Berman.

Actually I just remembered, Maurice Hurley was the dude she was having blues with. From Mem-alfa: 'According to Rick Berman, Hurley was the reason behind Gates McFadden's departure from The Next Generation in its second season, as he disliked her acting and "had a bone to pick with her." After he left the show in the third season, McFadden was invited back by Berman.' It didn't mention sexual harassment, but if you read between the lines that's the likely cause (a producer in hollywood sexually harassing a female actor? IMPOSSIBUL). So we still need Uraniun to vist this thread and bestow his incomparable ST trivia wisdom onto us.

[Uraniun235]

I'm pretty sure I picked it up off of Memory Alpha, which in turn seems to have since rescinded that tidbit as it was supposedly uncited.

One of the talk/discuss pages mentions a webpage which is no longer online; searching for that webpage returned this result which quotes the dead link as follows:

Two odd tidbits from a raving fan site for McMuffin:

http://www.northco.net/~crusher/history2.html

"The real reason Gates left is because she was getting sexually harassed
by Maurice Hurley. She told Roddenberry it was him or her and for some
reason they picked him. So she left, but they realized it sucked w/o
her, and asked her to return. She agreed, but only if Hurley left. If
you notice, Hurley's name is present on the credits for all 1st and 2nd
season eps, but absent after that."

[Uraniun235]

(I believe there's a story out there that goes along the lines of he was prepared to sink Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, when Roddenberry chose then and there to die) Not to mention Roddenberry was, in general, beginning to decline in his health. Other stuff happened too, like David Gerrold - yes, that David Gerrold, the one who wrote 'The Trouble with Tribbles' - who wrote the TNG series bible, left the show directly because of Maizlish doing the above shit.

The ST6 story goes that the final cut was shown to Roddenberry like a day or two before he died, and that at the end, in person, he gave his blessing and approval... and supposedly, Maizlish was compiling a list of "fixes" to be presented to the film's producers when Roddenberry died.

The funny thing is that it is equally plausible that Maizlish was doing so on his own initiative, as it is that Roddenberry lied about loving the movie and was preparing to come back with a big "fuck you" memo, because that sort of two-faced dealing was exactly the sort of thing Roddenberry preferred to do (and even moreso in the 80s and beyond).

Additionally, Roddenberry was never happy with the way the films turned out post-TMP. It's no secret he hated the way TWOK turned out, but he even disliked The Voyage Home... that is, before it turned out to be a massive success. Then he tried to take credit for the idea.


As for Gerrold, if he hadn't settled out of court for a sizable amount of money, it's entirely possible he could have sued and won a co-creator credit on TNG because of all the work he did on the original TNG writer's guide.


(This post sourced from Joel Engel's biography of Roddenberry, which is probably as close as we'll ever get to an Inside Star Trek: TNG - which is a shame, because while it's interesting, it lacks the humor and charm that make Inside Star Trek a really fun book to read.)

[Stofsk]

The funny thing is that it is equally plausible that Maizlish was doing so on his own initiative, as it is that Roddenberry lied about loving the movie and was preparing to come back with a big "fuck you" memo, because that sort of two-faced dealing was exactly the sort of thing Roddenberry preferred to do (and even moreso in the 80s and beyond).

I would imagine he was pretty far gone by then, health-wise. I can believe Maizlish acting on his own initiative quite easily.

Additionally, Roddenberry was never happy with the way the films turned out post-TMP. It's no secret he hated the way TWOK turned out, but he even disliked The Voyage Home... that is, before it turned out to be a massive success. Then he tried to take credit for the idea.

I think I read somewhere in a Trek trivia book when I was young that the dude responsible for leaking the movie scripts was Roddenberry.

As for Gerrold, if he hadn't settled out of court for a sizable amount of money, it's entirely possible he could have sued and won a co-creator credit on TNG because of all the work he did on the original TNG writer's guide.

Man I'd love to read that shit. A lot of TNG seems like it was recycled from Phase II, did Gerrold work on that or was he only brought in for TNG?

(This post sourced from Joel Engel's biography of Roddenberry, which is probably as close as we'll ever get to an Inside Star Trek: TNG - which is a shame, because while it's interesting, it lacks the humor and charm that make Inside Star Trek a really fun book to read.)

Inside Star Trek also has the virtue of being written by the two guys most responsible for the show's success as well, so you're getting it straight from the horse's mouth or whatever. But they included all those scans of memos and shit, which makes the book feel like the literary equivalent of a documentary.

Who have we got who could do the same thing for TNG? Berman? Braga? Who'd care what they think?

(actually I probably would be interested to hear Berman's thoughts on things, decades after the fact)

Incidentally thanks for replying to this thread. Your posts in this forum are always interesting and insightful.

[Sidewinder]

Hearing the description of Moore's original story- that the boy used the holodeck to recreate his dead mother, to escape the pain of grief- I can't help but think it would've been 1000 times better. The human drama of dealing with grief and loss, is something we can relate to. The drama of having alien ghosts impersonate a dearly departed loved one, to make one feel better- assuming the aliens can even understand the emotion, or empathize with the grieving human- feels cheap.

[Sidewinder]

Additionally, Roddenberry was never happy with the way the films turned out post-TMP. It's no secret he hated the way TWOK turned out, but he even disliked The Voyage Home... that is, before it turned out to be a massive success. Then he tried to take credit for the idea.

I think I read somewhere in a Trek trivia book when I was young that the dude responsible for leaking the movie scripts was Roddenberry.

So did I- at least for 'The Wrath of Khan'. I looked it up, and found this:

There was no proof, but many people suspected that Roddenberry leaked the script to fans. Having little official control over Trek, he resorted to underhanded tactics while happily collecting his paychecks. Meanwhile, Harve Bennett gained a reputation for ignoring fan criticisms, because he turned a blind eye to Roddenberry’s most vocal “agents.”


Pushed out of the creative process, Roddenberry could do nothing but stew and scheme, using the fans to do his own bidding just as he had done in 1966-68 with the letter-writing campaigns and the “spontaneous” student march on NBC’s Burbank headquarters. It must have irked him to no end that The Wrath of Khan became the most beloved of all Trek films, while his former contribution earned the nickname of “The Motionless Picture.”


When Gene Roddenberry read the script for The Search for Spock, he bitterly objected to the destruction of the Enterprise. Almost immediately, the details of its destruction leaked out. Paramount knew that Roddenberry was the culprit, because his script had been secretly coded. It is unclear if Roddenberry was threatened or reprimanded by the studio, but he stopped leaking the details of new scripts.

[DaveJB]

Man I'd love to read that shit. A lot of TNG seems like it was recycled from Phase II, did Gerrold work on that or was he only brought in for TNG?

Gerrold did write a script for Phase II, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't a part of the writing staff. The three main writing staffers that were on-board prior to Phase II being canned and turned into TMP were Roddenberry, Harold Livingston (the screenwriter on TMP) and Jon Povill.

Who have we got who could do the same thing for TNG? Berman? Braga? Who'd care what they think?

While I don't think anyone's going to write anything as comprehensive as what we got on TOS, Ron Moore and Joe Menosky have been pretty open about their experiences on TNG, as has Bryan Fuller for mid-late Voyager, and Mike Sussman for Enterprise. Plus there was that unreleased book which Michael Piller wrote about his experience on Insurrection.

[Uraniun235]

I think I read somewhere in a Trek trivia book when I was young that the dude responsible for leaking the movie scripts was Roddenberry.

Yeah, it was Roddenberry. They proved it on Star Trek 3 when they implemented a hidden identifier in the scripts that were distributed, and the pirated scripts that made their way back to Paramount were tagged as Roddenberry's.

Inside Star Trek also has the virtue of being written by the two guys most responsible for the show's success as well, so you're getting it straight from the horse's mouth or whatever. But they included all those scans of memos and shit, which makes the book feel like the literary equivalent of a documentary.

Who have we got who could do the same thing for TNG? Berman? Braga? Who'd care what they think?

(actually I probably would be interested to hear Berman's thoughts on things, decades after the fact)

Incidentally thanks for replying to this thread. Your posts in this forum are always interesting and insightful.

Berman would probably have the most expansive view, as he was there from the beginning through the end. I dunno, I might (strongly) disagree with his judgment as a showrunner or a storyteller, but he might be able to offer an insightful narrative of the production process of TNG. The dude's coming up on 70, maybe he'll consider himself retired enough to be able to write candidly and without fear of hurting his career.


And your kind words are most appreciated.