Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

[Eframepilot]

Ehhh... has anybody been noticing the points I've made here? I've pointed out why Q isn't necessarily vulnerable to human attack I think, like, three different ways, and nobody even noticed.

Well, I haven't replied because we're arguing the same side. I agree with your evaluation of Q's powers, but I don't think it's viable to claim that Sisko has some special ability to hurt Q because of his Emmisary-ness. Sisko was carried to term by Sarah Sisko, who WAS possessed by a more-powerful-than-average Prophet, but the only unusual ability he has displayed is sensitivity to visions from the Prophets and Pagh-wraiths.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Ehhh... has anybody been noticing the points I've made here? I've pointed out why Q isn't necessarily vulnerable to human attack I think, like, three different ways, and nobody even noticed.

Well, I haven't replied because we're arguing the same side. I agree with your evaluation of Q's powers, but I don't think it's viable to claim that Sisko has some special ability to hurt Q because of his Emmisary-ness. Sisko was carried to term by Sarah Sisko, who WAS possessed by a more-powerful-than-average Prophet, but the only unusual ability he has displayed is sensitivity to visions from the Prophets and Pagh-wraiths.

Heh! We really are arguing the same point, and you sort of don't seem to know it! See, you're saying exactly what I'm saying -- he has displayed a tighter connection to a higher-level lifeform than any other human. I'm extrapolating from that ability to interact more readily with higher lifeforms than other humans the claim that that is exactly what he did with Q, probably unconsciously, in order to tag his avatar with that right hook. Because ordinary humans can't readily interact with higher-level lifeforms the way Sisko does, I'm suggesting that only Sisko could have done to Q what Sisko did.

In any case, I think we've readily established that even if what Q does is based on technology and not biology, Han Solo and Chewbacca would have no feasible way to cope with it, unless somebody took a good half-hour or so and gave them the scoop on Q beforehand, and even then they'd have to know where and when Q was going to show up if they expect to get the jump on him.

[Lord Poe]

Really? Prove it. Again, if I had a holodeck and a transporter, I could be Q too, and you'd never know it.

I would.

Exactly how would you know, Sean? There has been several TNG episodes where the main characters, who are used to holodecks on a daily basis, had absolutely no idea that they were on a holodeck.

I don't think the Borg encounter at J-25 occured in a version of a holodeck, so Q can accelerate a starship to thousands of times its "true" maximum velocity.

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

Standing on the E-D's hull, talking normally and walking around without gravity boots would require more than transporter and holodeck fakery.

But not a hell of a lot more, if it actually did happen. An X-wing pilot with a mag-con field and gravity boots could do it. All this would prove is that Q have advanced equivalents of those, OR , that Q was showing Amanda Roges the extent of Q powers, which is illusions and tech.

Moving through time, even to the Big Bang, entails quite a bit of technical sophistication too (it wasn't a trick, since it was an effort to escape another Q...a "hiding place" as Q called it).

Sean, the entire scenario could have been Q's version of a Dexter Hill adventure. Beam the crew to the holodeck and have at it.

Same story in miniaturizing VGR to the size of a Christmas ornament, or in "inadvertently" causing supernovae.

See above.

Q are a little more than just fakers. They of course make themselves appear to be more than they are, but their essence won't be destroyed by a guy with a handgun.

We don't know that for certain, especially if they are surprised by a fist to the face.

According to him. For a billion year old being, he's suddenly gotten
progessively older and fatter over the past 16 years.

He has appeared as such, yes, but you should divorce the idea that Q is limited to the form he takes on the Enterprise, DS9, or VGR. That can't be the case; otherwise, he wouldn't last a second in the center of a comet, couldn't walk around in a vacuum, etc.

Again, this wouldn't be the case following my speculation above.

If he chose to geniunely spar with Sisko--say, he wanted to know what it was truly like to get knocked out, or whatever--it doesn't really matter. He probably elected to experience the situation that way. When he doesn't want to be hurt, he's not: photorps didn't hurt him when he was a ball of energy chasing the E-D around.

When he was a ball of energy, how do we know he wasn't in an advanced Q craft? AGAIN, how do we know the entire scenario didn't take place on a Q holodeck?

[Lord Poe]

In any case, I think we've readily established that even if what Q does is based on technology and not biology, Han Solo and Chewbacca would have no feasible way to cope with it, unless somebody took a good half-hour or so and gave them the scoop on Q beforehand, and even then they'd have to know where and when Q was going to show up if they expect to get the jump on him.

Why? Sisko was never briefed in any way that prepared him to punch Q. Again, we've only seen Sisko at that point actually strike a Q, and look what happened. Why would Solo need to know anything more about an intruder aboard his ship that can make things appear from thin air before he clocked him?

[TheDarkling]

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

No actually it's complex and more so than it has to be, what is the problem with Q simply throwing them the distance - the technology exists we have seen it used before by others.

Your theory requires them to be transported without knowledge, put on a huge (or several interconnected) holodecks, their physical hull to be altered eith Borg weapons (as well as other systems), the Borg must also be altered and dealt with in a similiar manner (because they knew all about Picard and they had already adapted to phasers), ships computers to be altered (false files inserted and so forth) - this is all alot more complex than he imply did someting we have seen him and other non-Q do on other occasions.

Sean, the entire scenario could have been Q's version of a Dexter Hill adventure. Beam the crew to the holodeck and have at it.

No you are missing the point, if it were simply a Dixon Hill adventure Q would have shut down the holodeck, waded over to Quinn and slapped him down instead of having to go and agree to a hearing over the matter so that the Voyager crew wouldn't have to play hide and seek for the next few centuries.

We don't know that for certain, especially if they are surprised by a fist to the face.

And yet he reacted fast enough to freeze that guy who pulled a phaser on him during Encounter at Farpoint.

[Slartibartfast]

Ah, they were sitting outside the Big Bang? That is obviously an illusion, since the Big Bang produced spacetime itself. There was no place you could look at the Big Bang.

How come? There's a restaurant where you can watch the Big Crush, so it must be possible...

[Lord Poe]

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

No actually it's complex and more so than it has to be, what is the problem with Q simply throwing them the distance - the technology exists we have seen it used before by others.

The question here is, did it actually happen? Read the thread, please.

Your theory requires them to be transported without knowledge,

Why would this be a problem? That flash of light that accompanies Q's little tricks could be the transition right there, and they'd never know.

put on a huge (or several interconnected) holodecks,

Why would Q need "huge (or several interconnected) holodecks"? The Moriarity program used the holodeck on the E-D to fool the command crew into believing they were in the actual ship. The Romulans did this as well to Riker.

their physical hull to be altered eith Borg weapons (as well as other systems),

As I've said before, what's the problem? I've already acknowledged that Q could be far more advanced than 24th century Feds. Just as I would be to 21st century humans if I had access to 24th century tech.

the Borg must also be altered and dealt with in a similiar manner (because they knew all about Picard and they had already adapted to phasers),

Wrong. The Borg already knew about such things thanks to Seven of Nine's parents.

ships computers to be altered (false files inserted and so forth) - this is all alot more complex than he imply did someting we have seen him and other non-Q do on other occasions.

Have you even watched any Trek? The aliens in "Conundrum" did this easily!

Sean, the entire scenario could have been Q's version of a Dexter Hill adventure. Beam the crew to the holodeck and have at it.

No you are missing the point, if it were simply a Dixon Hill adventure Q would have shut down the holodeck, waded over to Quinn and slapped him down instead of having to go and agree to a hearing over the matter so that the Voyager crew wouldn't have to play hide and seek for the next few centuries.

No, YOU are missing the point. Quinn could have been PART of the "Dixon Hill" scenario! Or, it was Quinn's holoadventure, and Q COULDN'T shut it down. Take your pick.

We don't know that for certain, especially if they are surprised by a fist to the face.

And yet he reacted fast enough to freeze that guy who pulled a phaser on him during Encounter at Farpoint.

Q wasn't surprised, WAS he? That guy pointed his phaser at him; he didn't do a snapshot from the holster.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But not a hell of a lot more, if it actually did happen. An X-wing pilot with a mag-con field and gravity boots could do it. All this would prove is that Q have advanced equivalents of those, OR , that Q was showing Amanda Roges the extent of Q powers, which is illusions and tech.

That's where your theory about Q "tech" is blown out the window. Amanda Rodgers. Amanda Rogers was born and raised thinking she was human. She had Q abilities, but had never heard of the Q, thus no "technology" could ever have changed hands.

I hope this isn't a false analogy, but let's draw an analogy demonstrating why I think the "technology" argument isn't solid:

Chameleons change their color to adapt to their surroundings. Humans have recently invented technology which will mimic the chameleon effect. Thus, chameleons must be using technology to change color.

Clearly, as the example of Amanda Rogers demonstrates, the Q do through biology what humans can partially duplicate through technology. That does not mean that the Q must be using technology themselves.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

In any case, I think we've readily established that even if what Q does is based on technology and not biology, Han Solo and Chewbacca would have no feasible way to cope with it, unless somebody took a good half-hour or so and gave them the scoop on Q beforehand, and even then they'd have to know where and when Q was going to show up if they expect to get the jump on him.

Why? Sisko was never briefed in any way that prepared him to punch Q. Again, we've only seen Sisko at that point actually strike a Q, and look what happened. Why would Solo need to know anything more about an intruder aboard his ship that can make things appear from thin air before he clocked him?

Poe, I've gone to great lengths to elucidate on why Sisko was able to do that whereas any normal human would not. Have you read those posts?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

When he was a ball of energy, how do we know he wasn't in an advanced Q craft? AGAIN, how do we know the entire scenario didn't take place on a Q holodeck?

We don't. But we assume so both because there is no evidence to support the idea that what was going on was anything other than "real" events. Otherwise, how do we know -- for example -- that the entirely of ANH/TESB/ROTJ weren't the events of a video-game Anakin Skywalker was playing? We assume, unless we are explicitly informed in the story that an event was a hallucination/dream/holodeck adventure/whatever, that it actually happened.

So far, it has never been "discovered" in any canon story that the Q are anything other than what they claim to be -- additionally, there is no solid evidence that they are anything other than what they claim to be. Therefore, they are what they claim to be.

[Nobody]

Most people are awed by Q's smoke and mirror tricks. Sisko is the only one in Trek who has actually acted physically against him. Not even Worf thought to attack him.

I'd like to point out that's incorrect. In the first epsiode he seems completly Unsuprised when Tasha Yar jumped him, and just froze her in mid-air. He USED to anticpate violence from humans... Guess he's gotten soft...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Most people are awed by Q's smoke and mirror tricks. Sisko is the only one in Trek who has actually acted physically against him. Not even Worf thought to attack him.

I'd like to point out that's incorrect. In the first epsiode he seems completly Unsuprised when Tasha Yar jumped him, and just froze her in mid-air. He USED to anticpate violence from humans... Guess he's gotten soft...

Naw, he caught a one-two combo to the character. Paramount socked him with a Berman to the Omniscience and followed it up with a Braga to the immortality.

[TheDarkling]

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

No actually it's complex and more so than it has to be, what is the problem with Q simply throwing them the distance - the technology exists we have seen it used before by others.

The question here is, did it actually happen? Read the thread, please.

Yes I know and my point is there is no reason to assume it didn't happen exactly as we saw and the simpler theory is that what we saw is what happens, you are starting fromthe position that it is an illusion and trying to prove it instead of looking at th evidence and going from there.

Your theory requires them to be transported without knowledge,

Why would this be a problem? That flash of light that accompanies Q's little tricks could be the transition right there, and they'd never know.

put on a huge (or several interconnected) holodecks,

Why would Q need "huge (or several interconnected) holodecks"? The Moriarity program used the holodeck on the E-D to fool the command crew into believing they were in the actual ship. The Romulans did this as well to Riker.

Well if you recall Riker was in a large cavern sized holodeck and would also point out that there is a slight scale differential between fooling 3 people and fooling 1000+.

their physical hull to be altered eith Borg weapons (as well as other systems),

As I've said before, what's the problem? I've already acknowledged that Q could be far more advanced than 24th century Feds. Just as I would be to 21st century humans if I had access to 24th century tech.

Yes so the Q can replicate Borg weapons exactly.

the Borg must also be altered and dealt with in a similiar manner (because they knew all about Picard and they had already adapted to phasers),

Wrong. The Borg already knew about such things thanks to Seven of Nine's parents.

Wrong. They chose Picard specifically and knew about his posting to the Enterprise-D so I suppose you conclude that there database not only held information about Picard (whom they chose above all others) but could also predict where he would be stationed several years later (in effect telling the future).

ships computers to be altered (false files inserted and so forth) - this is all alot more complex than he imply did someting we have seen him and other non-Q do on other occasions.

Have you even watched any Trek? The aliens in "Conundrum" did this easily!

No I have never seen trek ever.

The Alien Conundrum inserted a file or two not detailed sensor readings etc - I'm not saying the Q couldn't do I was just listing what they would have to do compared to the far simpler idea that they actually flug the Ent-D X amount of LYs.

/quote]Sean, the entire scenario could have been Q's version of a Dexter Hill adventure. Beam the crew to the holodeck and have at it.

No you are missing the point, if it were simply a Dixon Hill adventure Q would have shut down the holodeck, waded over to Quinn and slapped him down instead of having to go and agree to a hearing over the matter so that the Voyager crew wouldn't have to play hide and seek for the next few centuries.

No, YOU are missing the point. Quinn could have been PART of the "Dixon Hill" scenario! Or, it was Quinn's holoadventure, and Q COULDN'T shut it down. Take your pick.[/quote]

Ah I see so the entire trial was made up by Q as was the resulting Q civil war, Q's mate, Q's son and basically all of the Voyager Q events (well I guess that gets rid of the only direct mention of the Q using technology - nice job).

Or we have Q not being able to shut down the holodeck - why not simply grab the Voyager crew or was Quinn holding onto them aswell?

We don't know that for certain, especially if they are surprised by a fist to the face.

And yet he reacted fast enough to freeze that guy who pulled a phaser on him during Encounter at Farpoint.

Q wasn't surprised, WAS he? That guy pointed his phaser at him; he didn't do a snapshot from the holster.

I will take your word for it, I can't be bothered to review the scene at the moment.

[Zoink]

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

No actually it's complex and more so than it has to be, what is the problem with Q simply throwing them the distance - the technology exists we have seen it used before by others.

Your theory requires them to be transported without knowledge, put on a huge (or several interconnected) holodecks, their physical hull to be altered eith Borg weapons (as well as other systems), the Borg must also be altered and dealt with in a similiar manner (because they knew all about Picard and they had already adapted to phasers), ships computers to be altered (false files inserted and so forth) - this is all alot more complex than he imply did someting we have seen him and other non-Q do on other occasions.

In Star Trek: Insurrection, the alien crew is transported to a holodeck ship w/o them noticing.

In one TNG episode, the entire crew (except Data) is tricked into ignoring a planet because the aliens would destroy them otherwise. Data manipulates the computer and with the help of Crusher, they erase their memories. Second time around, Data is successfull and the crew still have to recollection of this event.

Damaging the hull is easy enough with conventional weapons.

[TheDarkling]

In Star Trek: Insurrection, the alien crew is transported to a holodeck ship w/o them noticing.

In one TNG episode, the entire crew (except Data) is tricked into ignoring a planet because the aliens would destroy them otherwise. Data manipulates the computer and with the help of Crusher, they erase their memories. Second time around, Data is successfull and the crew still have to recollection of this event.

Damaging the hull is easy enough with conventional weapons.

The hull damaging had to be done with Borg weapons.

The other things you bring up aren't really relevant, no one is saying that the Q aren't capable of doing what is described just that doing what they actually appear to do is far simpler and there is no reason to assume that isn't exactly what they are doing(at least in teh case of throwing the Ent-D to j-25).

[Lord Poe]

Yes I know and my point is there is no reason to assume it didn't happen exactly as we saw and the simpler theory is that what we saw is what happens, you are starting fromthe position that it is an illusion and trying to prove it instead of looking at th evidence and going from there.

I'm just providing the devil's advocate POV. Most seem to tale Q's omnipotence at face value. Me, I'm showing with just as much proof for my side of the argument, that he could be nothing more than the Wizard behind the curtain.

Well if you recall Riker was in a large cavern sized holodeck

And? Don't dismiss the Moriarity scenario so fast. The cavern wasn't vast.

and would also point out that there is a slight scale differential between fooling 3 people and fooling 1000+.

What difference? Moriarity currently thinks he's traveling the cosmos, when in reality he's sitting on Barkley's desk.

Yes so the Q can replicate Borg weapons exactly.

Possible, sure.

Wrong. The Borg already knew about such things thanks to Seven of Nine's parents.

Wrong. They chose Picard specifically and knew about his posting to the Enterprise-D so I suppose you conclude that there database not only held information about Picard (whom they chose above all others) but could also predict where he would be stationed several years later (in effect telling the future).

How do you know they simply didn't pick oh.....the CAPTAIN OF THE SHIP?? Jeez...

The Alien Conundrum inserted a file or two not detailed sensor readings etc -

Oh bullshit. They not only rewrote most of the databases onboard, but disabled the rest, rewrote the crew roster, blanked the minds of all the humans AND Data THROUGH the Enterprise's defenses...

I'm not saying the Q couldn't do I was just listing what they would have to do compared to the far simpler idea that they actually flug the Ent-D X amount of LYs.

LOL!! And that's SIMPLER?

Ah I see so the entire trial was made up by Q as was the resulting Q civil war, Q's mate, Q's son and basically all of the Voyager Q events (well I guess that gets rid of the only direct mention of the Q using technology - nice job).

Sure, why not? Q has already shown an affinity for playing with humans.
You're telling me you never dreamed up scenarios just as wacky? As Spock said, the more advanced the mind, the more need for play.

Or we have Q not being able to shut down the holodeck - why not simply grab the Voyager crew or was Quinn holding onto them aswell?

Again, quite possible. Remember, even Picard couldn't stop a holoadventure by Wesley if the kid wrote his own override codes.

[Eframepilot]

Sure, everything Q did COULD be an illusion. Sure, it COULD all take place on a holodeck. But so what? ALL of Star Trek could take place on a holodeck; in fact, isn't that the simplest explanation for all of Trek's illogic? Time paradox? Holodeck. Continuity error? Holodeck. Baldness still existing when they can restore people from spiders and salamanders? Holodeck. Impossible FTL warp drive? Holodeck. Universal Translator? Holodeck. Instead of suspending disbelief in all of Trek's wackiness, you can just believe in the holodeck and say the rest is all fake!

Why stop there? I can't believe other people would ever discuss a subject so silly. Therefore, this is all taking place in one of our heads. Can you prove otherwise?

But we don't have to prove otherwise. We deny solipsism because it isn't a useful theory. Likewise, claiming that Q's powers are entirely holodeck-based serves no useful purpose. By the way Q is presented in behavior and permanence of his feats, there is no reason to believe Q's powers are illusion-based. Therefore, we accept his powers as real (whatever their exact origin) until proven otherwise. And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.

[Lord Poe]

And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.

Yet it happened. You lose. Again.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.

Yet it happened. You lose. Again.

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans. So you lose. So neener-neener-neener, and as much other silly playground stuff as you'd care to involve.

[SirNitram]

And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.

Yet it happened. You lose. Again.

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans. So you lose. So neener-neener-neener, and as much other silly playground stuff as you'd care to involve.

Because Sisko has some minor sensing ability? That's a steaming load of bullshit if I've ever smelt any. The ability to move around the galaxy, perform wonderous acts, and so forth, does not demand physical immunity, jackass.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Yet it happened. You lose. Again.

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans. So you lose. So neener-neener-neener, and as much other silly playground stuff as you'd care to involve.

Because Sisko has some minor sensing ability? That's a steaming load of bullshit if I've ever smelt any. The ability to move around the galaxy, perform wonderous acts, and so forth, does not demand physical immunity, jackass.

So you're saying that you don't need physical immunity to stand around in hard vacuum having a casual chat with Olivia d'Abo?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So, let me ask you something, then, Nitram. You seem to be claiming that Sisko is a perfectly normal human, with the exception of what you call "minor sensing abilities" -- I'm guessing you mean clairvoyance or precognition. So as applied to the topic of this thread, then, do Han Solo or Chewbacca have these abilities? Because if these are just latent abilities Sisko has, he was probably using them in the ring against Q without knowing it. Could Solo's clairvoyance beat Q's? How about Chewbacca?

Whether it's technology or not doesn't matter. Whether it's illusion or not does not fucking matter. If a guy can create the illusion of turning a medical professional into a hound dog and making her believe she was a hound dog, he can sure as fuck mess with a spice smuggler and his pet Wookiee's heads enough to keep them from offing him. Get it? You still lose.

[Lord Poe]

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans.

Sorry: bullshit. Sisko had no inkling of any "powers" whatsoever. Especially in the first season.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans.

Sorry: bullshit. Sisko had no inkling of any "powers" whatsoever. Especially in the first season.

Oh, well pardon me -- I didn't know you had to be aware of your biological processes and functions before those functions work. Good thing the doctor briefed me on pissing before we left the delivery room, or I might've been mighty uncomfortable all these years. :rolleyes:

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans.

Sorry: bullshit. Sisko had no inkling of any "powers" whatsoever. Especially in the first season.

Oh, well pardon me -- I didn't know you had to be aware of your biological processes and functions before those functions work. Good thing the doctor briefed me on pissing before we left the delivery room, or I might've been mighty uncomfortable all these years. :rolleyes: