Children of Dune

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-09 10:14pm

I'm looking forward to seeing the new mini-series. Shoudl be as good as the last one.

And if the last one didn't fit Dune exactly right, well it came pretty close. Not to mention (with exception of the Sadukar) the costumes were cool and fit the society.

I don't understand a lot the purists objects any better than I do to those that hate the FotR movie. Yes, certian liberties were taken but it still was a damn good adaptation. It won't fit your vision exactly but it was damn good none the less. It got right a lot of the spirit of Dune.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-09 11:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing the new mini-series. Shoudl be as good as the last one.

And if the last one didn't fit Dune exactly right, well it came pretty close. Not to mention (with exception of the Sadukar) the costumes were cool and fit the society.

I don't understand a lot the purists objects any better than I do to those that hate the FotR movie. Yes, certian liberties were taken but it still was a damn good adaptation. It won't fit your vision exactly but it was damn good none the less. It got right a lot of the spirit of Dune.

It could have been SO much more though. And I didn't hate it enough to NOT buy the DVD, or tape it when it aired originally and watch it over and over.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-09 11:30pm

Jadeite wrote:
Finished Heretics, and I finally get what the f*cking Scattering was. My question, why the hell they care about the Old Empire in the first place...
What exactly was the Scattering? Iv read all the books, and cant figure it out. And as for what the Honored Matres were running from in Chapterhouse, I think I know what it is.

**SPOILER WARNING**

In the newest Dune Prequel book, Omnius (the head of the AI), makes copies of himself and launches them into space, to explore and found new machine worlds. I think the the Matres found one of those worlds, and its after them now.

NO NO NO!!! Face Dancers that had absorbed millions of personas, thereby gaining liberty from Tleilaxu Masters were chasing the HM back to the Old Empire.
And Jadeite, the prequels burn nicely, it's the only thing they're good for. I checked Butlerian Jihad out from the library and could not read past page 59. IT SUCKED! For the author sanctioned version of prequel events go here!

http://futureprometheus.com/drmcnelly/
Check out the links, and pay particular attention to the timeline, and the NAMES of characters. Herbert said that if it didn't contradict his books, then it was official. Something he would never say about the "evil robots" in KJA's asswipeage!

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-10 12:46am

Frank Hipper wrote:It could have been SO much more though. And I didn't hate it enough to NOT buy the DVD, or tape it when it aired originally and watch it over and over.

It could have done things better. I'll agree that some of the sets were damn obvious and the things did suffer somewhat from being compressed and aired on TV but it was still a damn good mini-series.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-03-10 12:52am

Frank Hipper wrote:*grumblegrumbleit'sgonnasuckgrumbleworsethanB&Bgrumble*
Judging Dune by the mini-series is like juding ST by Enterprise, only worse. Read the books!! Now!

And expose yourself to the mind-boggling boredom of the series? No thank you. I think I'd rather read Robert Jordan. At least it's more lively than Dune.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-03-10 12:53am

Some thing in the miniseries could be done better...but overall I found it palatable, and Children looks to be a far superior work...seriously.

The few previews seem to hint at a greater delving into the books.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-10 01:10am

Here's a small review of the series. Looks good.

No real spoilers I saw.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-03-10 01:22am

neoolong wrote:Here's a small review of the series. Looks good.

No real spoilers I saw.

The reviewer compare Leto II to Luke Skywalker?

Either they complete change the ending of the book, or the reviewer doesn't really know what he's talking about concerning the role of Leto II...

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-03-10 01:24am

The entire Dune franchise, while amazing works of sci-fi, are terribly Tv or movie friendly. Its far to introspective and political with long sequences where nothing is explained , only hinted at. The politics of the Empire are so Byzantine as to make the US gov look like a bunch of pikers. Add into that a feudal, vendetta ridden, society, still scarred by the horrors of the Butlerian, Jihad, a massive secret breeding program to produce 'God' in a man, and a dependency on a rare narcotic found only on a planet full of neo-Jews(Zensunni Wanderers my ass) to hold the whole thing together, and shit I just explained the books and I'm fucking lost.....

The Lynch movie - Good try, especially the 4hour extended edition, with the ten min intoduction added to 'set up the universe', and all of the scenes that were edited for time when it was initialy released. Captured the look of the Dune-verse very well, although the Sardaukar in hefty bags were terribly stupid.....along with the Harkonnen heart-plug, cat/mouse antidote dispenser, massive WTF?! factor.......

Sci-Fi miniseries - Another very good stab, far more watachable than the original release Dune movie, but still lacking in several areas. Pros - Got the Fremen and the stillsuit right! Worms looked badassed, not the giant phallus things inthe Lynch movie. I liked the casting, especially William Hurt as Duke Leto, he worked better than Jurgen Prochnow for some reason.
Cons - To man liberties with the story at times, Irulan fucking Feyd Rautha, riiiight......the total emasculation of Hasimir Fenring's character, who was pivotal to the entire story and a badass to boot, and the deletion of Margot, his Bene Gessirit wife who is also KEY to everything!! Again, dumbassed uniforms for the Sardaukar, the poofy hats just ruined it for me.

Hoping that Children of Dune is better, the success of Dune should have helped pump a few more Euros into the production and hopefully were well spent to improve the film.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-10 01:27am

Some damn good points, maybe I should re watch that original as someone else did. Either way, the mini series kicked ass. Now, I'm sure if I had read the books, and it was glaringly different then I'd be pissed. But if it's like The Two Towers were the book and movie are different but both have that great story and epic appeal I wouldn't be pissed.

Case in point, Spiderman. When J. Cameron was boasting about how he would write and direct Spiderman he mentioned organic shooters. WTF. Spiderman had plenty of times in the books and cartoons were he'd be in mid flight or battling someone and run out of fluid. However, I think the organic shooters freed them up for more of a story and action. Not only that, but no Gwen Stacy. Let's face it, you can read history, and the back issues, but Gwen Stacy, she's just a name that gets mentioned. I'm very used to Mary Jane Watson. I always found the Goblin suit to be bad as fuck, but for real purposes, the mechanical suit fits the bill. Okay, that's enough of Spiderman, if you guys want to go deeper into it, then we'll make a new thread.

Something I've seen floating around are the Dune books. I know full well KJA's foul hand has penned some of these novels. So what I want to know, is which books to read? Please, if someone could tell me, I need new material with the EU winding down for a time.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-03-10 01:40am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Case in point, Spiderman. When J. Cameron was boasting about how he would write and direct Spiderman he mentioned organic shooters. WTF. Spiderman had plenty of times in the books and cartoons were he'd be in mid flight or battling someone and run out of fluid. However, I think the organic shooters freed them up for more of a story and action. Not only that, but no Gwen Stacy. Let's face it, you can read history, and the back issues, but Gwen Stacy, she's just a name that gets mentioned. I'm very used to Mary Jane Watson. I always found the Goblin suit to be bad as fuck, but for real purposes, the mechanical suit fits the bill. Okay, that's enough of Spiderman, if you guys want to go deeper into it, then we'll make a new thread.

Oddball point but Peter David created organic shooter as well as mini feeler for Spiderman 2099 before James Cameron.

Also the no Gwen Stacy is a good thing given Peter just leaped through High school to professional life in a leap with no college and little intervening(that and Stacy requires a couple other characters to be introduced to be somewhat close in content)

And the Goblin suit I agree worked well because it at least fit what he was.

Something I've seen floating around are the Dune books. I know full well KJA's foul hand has penned some of these novels. So what I want to know, is which books to read? Please, if someone could tell me, I need new material with the EU winding down for a time.

Dune and such are Herbert...while ALL the prequels are of KJA.

Personally take what you can from Dune onward...because the prequels fuck shit up beyond words and are crap to book.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-03-10 01:43am

As for the KJA/ Brian Herbert books, if you love Dune fanatically, do NOT read them, they are tripe served up as an appitizer to filet mignon. As books set in the Dune Universe, but not really canon, much like the EU in SW, then read on, but apply nothing in them to the actual Herbert books.

They manage to make a muck of it , turning complex intrigue and political manuvering, into a long series of action and adventure set pieces that have more in common with Star Wars than the Dune setting of Herberts divising.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-10 02:04am

First off, I tried to stay away from any of the 2099 books. I always figured Spiderman had feelers to an extent. It would explain why he can grasp through his costume and be able to let go when he feels like it. Still, I like both of those ideas. I think there was only a couple of things I didn't like about the movie. I remember some time before it came out I was talking with the accountant at work. She was asking me about it, and I said 'Somebody named Toby Mcquire is Spiderman'. She was like, 'That's a horriable choice. He's such a dork in all of his films.'. "Dork' I say, 'Perfect'. He was Peter Parker, 'The Amazing Spiderman!'

I figured with KJA on as the author it would be best to stay away from those books. I have never read the Young Jedi series because of it, and his total lack of respect for anything is the most underlying example of why I have a large dislike to the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-03-10 02:06am

Actually the comic explaination for him being able to web crawl....straight from the mouth of Stan Lee...was originally

Static Electricity

Seriously.

As for KJA...he ruined a lot of things, and honestly is something I am amazed get around so much and has some uncanny ability to fuck shit up.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-10 02:13am

Leave him in the drier for an hour and he's ready to go.

I can't believe KJA is allowed to write anything. He sucks, everyone fucking knows it. He totally fucked up the Chronology. Granted it should not have appeared until AFTER Episode III, much like the updated characters book. Holy Mother of Fuck. These people that make such decisions are the only reason he's still around.

p.s. I have both books, but only because they are necessary to cover a lot of shit, and it's doubtful they will make another one for some damn time.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-03-10 02:31am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Something I've seen floating around are the Dune books. I know full well KJA's foul hand has penned some of these novels. So what I want to know, is which books to read? Please, if someone could tell me, I need new material with the EU winding down for a time.

Like others said, Dune and onward are by Herbert. specifically they are

Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune

Rumor has is that KJA was going to write a "sequel" based on what Frank Herbert left behind. Now that's a disaster I don't want happen

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-10 02:45am

Fear not, Snipers are already in position.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-10 02:58am

After Children of Dune I found that the books got increasingly more obtuse. Hell, my mother, who's read and watched a fuckload more sci-fi than me, couldn't make it through the first few chapters because it was so dense.

But we WILL be watching the new miniseries. Just to see how it is.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 2003-03-10 03:18am

So due to KJA, the Matres are running from a machine civilization? What, the bloody fucking Borg?

As for growing more obscure as time went on... I could see how they would be less accessible on a first reading, certainly. Id say Dune is still by far the best of the series... but I enjoyed all of them (That is to say of Frank's work, Dune through Chapterhouse).

Scattering-After Leto II dies, his empire falls apart into violence and catastrophe, and as a minor side-note, the ridgid controls on space travel go, too. This was all part of the plan. The Scattering involves a (relatively) sudden and massive outgrowth of humanity, breaking it free of its core world (the 'million worlds' of the Old Empire) into relative infinty. That was the 'Golden Path' that starts being discussed as early as Children of Dune... to force stability and control on humanity for so long, so as to build a massive, repressed need. Paul was unwilling to undergo the changes necessary to extend his lifespan, and thus the source of his conflict with his son in Children.

Side note... their not entirely wrong to join them, IMHO. Dune is its own story. Messiah and Children are the lead-in to God Emperor. Heretics opens up for Chapterhouse, which you can either see as a fitting conclusion, or (based on things Herbert had going on late in the novel) the springboard for something else, something completely penulitmate.

In truth, I think the former more likely.. if youve read any of his other stuff, Herbert was always given to glancing just past the edges of very, very large forces moving semi-offscreen. RE: Godmakers, Green Brain.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-10 05:00am

septesix wrote:
neoolong wrote:Here's a small review of the series. Looks good.

No real spoilers I saw.
The reviewer compare Leto II to Luke Skywalker?

Either they complete change the ending of the book, or the reviewer doesn't really know what he's talking about concerning the role of Leto II...

He was comparing archetypes, not specific characters.

God Emperor · Post by **God Emperor** » 2003-03-10 05:46am

The latter books confusing? I found the latter ones to be really good.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-03-10 01:47pm

The latter books were great, I'm going through Chapterhouse right now. Heretics was one I couldn't put down at the end, but the destruction of ******* was kind of depressing, if you know what I mean.

This is just me surmising:

Anyhow, when Leto II died, melange production bombed. His storehouse wasn't found until Heretics, and the Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild almost died during these times. Interstellar trade dropped, and the Famine Times set in. When trade reopened, people took Ixian No-Ships and Navigation Machines, and exploded outwards looking for new resources and homes (Kind of like in Asimov.) They found something out there that scared the crap out of them, and now they're coming back, hoping to take over the Old Empire.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-03-10 02:48pm

the Original 6 Dune books are the best 6 books i ever read in my life. Such an epic story woth great battles and a brilliant inovative plot. Herbert was a genius but unfortunately he must be spining in his grave due to what his asshole son and Kevin Jack-Ass have done to his great works. I actually read the preaquals and decided i want to sue Herbert Junior. Most of the EU in Dune has been piss poor. The Lynch movie was great on its own, the cast was superb and the costume design was top notch, I thought the sardukar uniforms were very cleaver considering they where suposed to be Harkonnen troops. The Dune Mini Series made me wince. The basic story line was flawed. What the fuck happened to Countess Fenring? And as for the cast, don't get me started. Only Chani looked the part.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-10 08:28pm

Herbert was a genius but unfortunately he must be spining in his grave due to what his asshole son and Kevin Jack-Ass have done to his great works. I actually read the preaquals and decided i want to sue Herbert Junior. Most of the EU in Dune has been piss poor.

Hell, the plot outline of them could have been pretty good. It was based on Frank Herbert's own notes. The problem was Kevin Jerk-off Anderson. I'm convinced he's really being ghost written by a fifth grader.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-10 10:31pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Herbert was a genius but unfortunately he must be spining in his grave due to what his asshole son and Kevin Jack-Ass have done to his great works. I actually read the preaquals and decided i want to sue Herbert Junior. Most of the EU in Dune has been piss poor.
Hell, the plot outline of them could have been pretty good. It was based on Frank Herbert's own notes. The problem was Kevin Jerk-off Anderson. I'm convinced he's really being ghost written by a fifth grader.

If only they had published the notes, maybe with a little commentary here and there.
I will provide someone with my left testicle if they can provide proof that the following were in Herbert's notes:
That RM Mohaim is Jessica's mother.
That Paul was born in the palace on Kaitain.
That LetoI had been married previous to his involvement with Jessica.
That Vladimir Harkonnen's obesity can be attributed to a BG disease.
That Ix is ruled by a Great House.
That Salusa Secundus was devastated by nuclear weapons.
That a Prince Rhombur and his BG bride produced offspring by fucking ARTIFICIAL INSEMENATION!!!