According to the FBI's website, there were around 14,000,000 arrests made in 2006. How many stories like the OP have we seen since 2006? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'd guess less than a hundred, maybe less than fifty. Nowhere close to a significant percentage of 14,000,000, in any case. The vast majority of arrests go right, without anybody getting hurt, but that's boring, so the news cycle doesn't pick them up, its only when an arrest goes wrong in some way that anybody hears about it.
If 13,999,000 of those arrests were petty drug offenses and 25 of 50 arrests involving fundamental civil liberties went bad would you consider that a healthy system?
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many stable dictatorships, etc. can make the same claim that MOST arrests go fine.
Nova Andromeda wrote:
Seriously? The appropriate standard is for YOU to show there IS serious oversight and accountability since it is ESSENTIAL. You should know that and if you gave a shit about having a good criminal justice system in the US you wouldn't be making me do all the work for you.
You're the one making the claims of corruption here, shit for brains. The onus is on you to prove your claims.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
According to the FBI's website, there were around 14,000,000 arrests made in 2006. How many stories like the OP have we seen since 2006? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'd guess less than a hundred, maybe less than fifty. Nowhere close to a significant percentage of 14,000,000, in any case. The vast majority of arrests go right, without anybody getting hurt, but that's boring, so the news cycle doesn't pick them up, its only when an arrest goes wrong in some way that anybody hears about it.
If 13,999,000 of those arrests were petty drug offenses and 25 of 50 arrests involving fundamental civil liberties went bad would you consider that a healthy system?
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many stable dictatorships, etc. can make the same claim that MOST arrests go fine.
So exactly what percentage do you think should be the target for a healthy system?
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Darth Wong wrote:Arguing about the prevalence of a phenomenon without supporting evidence (Wikipedia? Seriously?) is utterly pointless. The real question is: what do you propose we do about it? And don't say "greater accountability"; that is a mission statement, not an actual plan. It's like someone saying he's going to improve government by "slashing waste"; it's meaningless boilerplate without a concrete thought to it.
Are you looking for something that is likely to work given all the current realities? I don't know of anything like that. Honestly, the rational humanist part of society needs to gain control of politics, but that's also a mission statement. I guess I'd start by organizing atheist, humanists, etc. and try to put together some sort of 'tradition' to replace that part that is so appealing about religion. I'd also encourage you to have more kids. I fear the fight will be generations at best.
Nova Andromeda wrote:WRONG! I'm saying we have no serious police accountability or strong independent oversight. That means the level of police abuse is largely unknown.
No, you're going "PROVE IT! WE DON'T KNOW THAT!" to someone who says "the great majority of arrests don't turn into human rights abuses."
Which means we have to stop and think. What is a plausible percentage of inhumane arrests (like the one in the OP)? Let's stop huffing and puffing and think about that. Could it be 100%? 10%? 1%? 0.1%? 0.001%?
If there have been a hundred million arrests in the past year, 0.1% of that would be one hundred thousand. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that there have been that many abusive arrests? Does your argument hinge on the idea that of these one hundred thousand human rights crimes, only 1% are reported? If so, then your argument is not credible, unless you have supporting evidence.
Also, you have yet to explain what "no oversight" means. Or even what you think "oversight" is. How much do you actually know about police work, the structure of police departments, and how to oversee police to avoid human rights abuses? Do you have clear ideas about this?
Or are you just blowing hot air?
Nova Andromeda wrote:Are you looking for something that is likely to work given all the current realities? I don't know of anything like that. Honestly, the rational humanist part of society needs to gain control of politics, but that's also a mission statement. I guess I'd start by organizing atheist, humanists, etc. and try to put together some sort of 'tradition' to replace that part that is so appealing about religion. I'd also encourage you to have more kids. I fear the fight will be generations at best.
BALTIMORE — Tucked behind a liquor store, opposite a flooring company, Majestic Body Shop was an unremarkable sight amid a blur of commercial properties just east of the city limits. But the police cars that always seemed to be parked at the repair shop caught the eyes of passing drivers. The F.B.I. noticed as well — agents were videotaping Majestic and tapping its phone.
What the investigation revealed was startling: a bribery racket suspected to involve kickbacks to dozens of Baltimore police officers.
The scheme to divert cars damaged in traffic accidents to the body shop in return for payoffs resulted in one of the widest police corruption scandals in Baltimore history. This week, a 10th officer will be sentenced to prison, one of 14 officers who pleaded guilty to federal extortion charges. One trial ended in conviction, another officer pleaded guilty in state court and at least 14 suspended officers still face departmental discipline and possible state charges.
The scandal delivered a body blow to a police force that has struggled to win public confidence. The sheer number of officers involved stunned department veterans and civilians alike.
In the aftermath, Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III — who invited the F.B.I. to investigate the force — brought in Grayling G. Williams, the Department of Homeland Security’s former counternarcotics chief, to head the division charged with rooting out corruption. The previous director had been ousted for socializing with an officer indicted on a charge of heroin trafficking. “We want to do a better job,” Mr. Williams said, “and we want this to be the Police Department that the public wants.”
Mr. Bealefeld, 49, who recently announced plans to retire in August after 31 years on the force, will almost certainly be remembered for reducing the city’s crime and murder rates as well as for his aggressive anticorruption efforts, including the Majestic case. He acknowledged that the corruption cases during his five years as commissioner had been trying, but said “it comes with the territory.”
And he made no apologies for his efforts to change the department’s direction and shed its troubled image reinforced — unfairly, Mr. Bealefeld contended — by the fictional television drama “The Wire.”
“I made clear from the very beginning that I would hold bad cops accountable,” he said.
The Baltimore case was unusual for the large number of officers involved; police corruption typically involves only a small number of officers.
“The big takedowns, the pervasive corruption” are uncommon, said Kevin L. Perkins, the F.B.I.’s acting executive assistant director for criminal and cyber operations.
The scheme began when Officer Jhonn S. Corona struck a deal to bring business to two brothers, Hernan Moreno Mejia and Edwin Mejia, the body shop’s owners. All three have pleaded guilty; Mr. Corona received a sentence of two and a half years last month.
The plan worked like this: Officers who summon a tow truck to accident scenes are required to use so-called medallion tow trucks authorized by the city; instead, they would call the Mejia brothers, who would send a nonmedallion truck.
Each time a car reached Majestic, officers received several hundred dollars. Some damaged the cars more to increase the insurance payout. The scheme grew as Mr. Corona recruited other officers, who in turn brought in more colleagues, until at least 51 were involved. Court documents from one defendant suggest 59 officers made calls to the brothers.
Even before the Majestic case came to light, Mr. Bealefeld had worried that internal oversight was failing and had turned to the F.B.I. because of rumors of criminality on the force, including the officer who was eventually indicted on a charge of dealing heroin.
The turning point came after Paula Protani, an employee of a medallion towing company and the vice president of a towing association, filed a complaint in August 2009 that the police passed to the F.B.I. The agency began recording calls between the brothers and officers. Bank records revealed that the brothers paid between $200,000 and $1 million to the officers.
“It was quick, easy money in their pockets,” Ms. Protani said.
As the operation continued, the scope of the graft took shape. Rather than play down the case, Mr. Bealefeld sought to make an example of the officers.
When the time came last year to make arrests in the case, Mr. Bealefeld and federal agents lured the 17 officers facing federal charges to the police academy, where Mr. Bealefeld confronted them and stripped them of their badges before agents led them away in handcuffs. To ensure that future officers knew about it, he summoned two academy recruits to watch.
The commissioner has been aggressive in his efforts to mend the department’s reputation, said Rod J. Rosenstein, the United States attorney for Maryland.
“He knows that there has been a problem,” Mr. Rosenstein said. “He’s personally committed to doing everything he can to hold accountable corrupt police officers in order to change the culture of the organization.”
Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, whose predecessor stepped down in a plea deal related to corruption, said the Majestic case had been a “double-edged sword,” revealing graft to prove that the city did not sweep it under the rug.
“I understand the risks in all of that,” she said, “but I know that in the long run, it’s the best thing for the city.”
Corruption can and does get dealt with, so you cannot legitimately claim there isn't any oversight.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
From the sound of it, assuming it's not a troll attempt, I'm not sure Nova has a clear idea of what "oversight" is. He may think "oversight" is "the magic man who makes bad things not happen," instead of being "teams of overworked investigators who are trying to watch everybody at once," which is a more practical definition.
That would explain why he expects "put atheists in charge" to fix everything. That sounds more like a millenial vision- put the Right People in charge and suddenly all problems go away because the magic man has waved his hand.
According to the FBI's website, there were around 14,000,000 arrests made in 2006. How many stories like the OP have we seen since 2006? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'd guess less than a hundred, maybe less than fifty. Nowhere close to a significant percentage of 14,000,000, in any case. The vast majority of arrests go right, without anybody getting hurt, but that's boring, so the news cycle doesn't pick them up, its only when an arrest goes wrong in some way that anybody hears about it.
If 13,999,000 of those arrests were petty drug offenses and 25 of 50 arrests involving fundamental civil liberties went bad would you consider that a healthy system?
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many stable dictatorships, etc. can make the same claim that MOST arrests go fine.
Once again, I'm not saying shit like the OP article isn't a problem, what I'm saying is that its not typical. Things like the OP article are, in fact, a tiny fraction of a percent of arrests, which makes them pretty much the defination of "atypical."
A fuse is a physical embodyment of zen, in order for it to succeed, it must fail.
Power to the Peaceful
If you have friends like mine, raise your glasses. If you don't, raise your standards.
PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:No, not typical. Events like this get a lot of publicity, but are actually fairly rare. I myself, and several of my friends, (being, as we were, criminals, back in the bad old days) have been arrested several times, and never had anything remotely like this happen. Despite what you might see on TV or the internet, the typical American police officer is not a jack-booted thug. Most of them are just people doing a stressful, mostly thankless job, where being shot at is an occupational hazard. Police often get shown in a bad light because they only make the news when they do something wrong. How often do you hear about it when a cop arrests a guy, the guy cooperates, the cop follows all the rules and everything goes smoothly? Not saying shit like the OP article doesn't happen ever, or that its not a problem, just that its not as prevalent as mass media would have you believe.
Do you have a shred of evidence to back up these claims? I thought not.
Guilty until proven innocent, eh?
Sig images are for people who aren't fucking lazy.
So, why doesn't anybody here wonder why the US has such high per capita arrest rates in the first place?
Statstically, ONE IN TWENTY AMERICANS got arrested in 2006. Why is that?
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Drug abuse (I think that is distinct from trafficking): 12.5%
Drunk Driving: 10.7%
larceny/theft: 9.6%
Violent crime: 4.2%
EDIT: Property Crime (vandalism):12.5% (Larceny-theft is included in this number)
It should also be noted that at least according to the web page I was on, number of arrests is distinct from number of people arrested, as one person can be arrested multiple times or for multiple charges.
PeZook wrote:So, why doesn't anybody here wonder why the US has such high per capita arrest rates in the first place?
Statstically, ONE IN TWENTY AMERICANS got arrested in 2006. Why is that?
Because a lot of states have really fucked up laws and enforcement of said laws. But that's a separate issue and not really relavent to this discussion.
Also, arrests are not the same as convictions, that might seem obvious, but I thought I'd point it out in case it wasn't.
A fuse is a physical embodyment of zen, in order for it to succeed, it must fail.
Power to the Peaceful
If you have friends like mine, raise your glasses. If you don't, raise your standards.
Questor wrote:
It should also be noted that at least according to the web page I was on, number of arrests is distinct from number of people arrested, as one person can be arrested multiple times or for multiple charges.
I know, that's why I wrote that STATISTICALLY one in twenty Americans got arrested, obviously a lot of that number will be multiple arrests ; Still, it's several times higher per capita than other nations.
And as usual it seems the drug war is to blame. Well, figures.
PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:
Also, arrests are not the same as convictions, that might seem obvious, but I thought I'd point it out in case it wasn't.
Yeah, I know that. But the discussion was about conditions and procedures and possible abuse during arrest.
As an aside, why the fuck did they handcuff the guy to his bench when he was in a solitary cell with a locked door and guards outside?
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Also consider that some of those arrests (probably a lot actually) are for multiple offenses at once.
When you arrest a 'career' criminal, usually multiple charges are laid at the same time. The most I've ever heard in a single arrest (that wasn't part of some massive investigation) was 23. (Numerous cases of assault and weapons violations)
Does the article in question indicate if it's just listing the primary offense on a charge, or if making a distinction between single and multi charge arrests?
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
PeZook wrote:I know, that's why I wrote that STATISTICALLY one in twenty Americans got arrested, obviously a lot of that number will be multiple arrests ; Still, it's several times higher per capita than other nations.
And as usual it seems the drug war is to blame. Well, figures.
Partly to blame. Drug arrests don't seem to be a majority, and it's not like other countries don't punish drug use at all.
The drug arrests may contribute to a long-term recidivism effect, though: by trying to ostracize convicts you practically guarantee they'll commit other crimes later. Which might or might not be drug crimes.
Yeah, I know that. But the discussion was about conditions and procedures and possible abuse during arrest.
As an aside, why the fuck did they handcuff the guy to his bench when he was in a solitary cell with a locked door and guards outside?
I see a few explanations:
One, it's a fuckup: cops going around in the middle of a big political protest, possibly with minimal sleep, possibly the guy who normally handles something being out, or an individual person running the station just being stupid and/or asinine, or a lot of similar things.
Two, there's some demented 'standard procedure' in place that assumes every criminal has the killer instincts and skills of an elite commando
Simon_Jester wrote:Two, there's some demented 'standard procedure' in place that assumes every criminal has the killer instincts and skills of an elite commando
It could also be a half-assed attempt to prevent self-harm.
Aaron MkII wrote:You can't ambush the cop coming through the door if your hand cuffed to the bench.
Well, then all prisoners should be shackled to their beds, drugged and have catherers inserted so that they don't have to be fed or escorted to the bathroom - that way they have no opportunity to ambush cops with their elite commando skills and hidden cybernetic knives!
Is there a reason the cop can't just go "Stand up. Turn around, face the wall." before going in? I mean, just how much of a problem are arrestees ambushing cops in lockups? They shoved him into a holding cell unhandcuffed later, with a whole bunch of other people, too.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Aaron MkII wrote:You can't ambush the cop coming through the door if your hand cuffed to the bench.
Well, then all prisoners should be shackled to their beds, drugged and have catherers inserted so that they don't have to be fed or escorted to the bathroom - that way they have no opportunity to ambush cops with their elite commando skills and hidden cybernetic knives!
Is there a reason the cop can't just go "Stand up. Turn around, face the wall." before going in? I mean, just how much of a problem are arrestees ambushing cops in lockups? They shoved him into a holding cell unhandcuffed later, with a whole bunch of other people, too.
In an era of hypersensitivity about everything, reporting every event as a harbinger of the apocalypse, and insisting every event be investigated and punished "to the top" it only takes one instance of anything to ensure a years long bureaucratic nightmare "solved" by regulation/procedure overkill. Rarely the correct regulation/procedure, just one that seems full proof and addresses the flavor of hysteria of the day.
Until another event like the one in the OP gets the same treatment, and the pendulum swings the other direction, we lay another level of regulation and procedure on top of the previous one, and we crucify the people who came up with the previous methods.
And then another perp out of a million ambushes an interviewer. Wash, repeat...
5: The author's hypothesis, extrajudicial punishment for suspicion of having the wrong politics, at least deserves to be on the list of possible reasons if assumption of elite commando skillz makes the cut... It would certainly explain why we don't seem to hear about this sort of abuse in most drug possession cases.
"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
Eh, I think the last part of Simon's option 1 is probably most likely, the cop who did it was just a dick. Which is not to say he didn't do it because the author was a "damned dirty liberal," but that's still an expression of individual dickishness, rather than a department wide policy.
What happened in the article wasn't even that bad, comparatively. I spot three main things. 1) The author never saw a warrant. This is the worst offense here, if the police really didn't have a warrant, as opposed to the author just not seeing one. 2) The police didn't let the author use the restroom when he needed to. This, I think, falls under the category of "dick move," but can also possibly be explained by a lack of personell on hand, there was a major event going on in the city at the time. 3) The author was held without charges for longer than is legal, by six hours, which, once again, might just be due to the police department being somewhat overwhelmed, with the NATO summit and a large protest going on at the same time.
The author wasn't beaten or tortured, he wasn't held for months without trial, he wasn't denied proper medical care, once it was confirmed that he needed his meds, he wasn't denied access to a lawyer, in the end, he wasn't even charged with anything. He WAS arrested for a bullshit reason, which is fucked up, and he found that being arrested is an unpleasant experiance, which is to be expected, and thirty hours later, he was free to go. This whole incident is pretty far down the list, as far incidents of police brutality/corruption go.
A fuse is a physical embodyment of zen, in order for it to succeed, it must fail.
Power to the Peaceful
If you have friends like mine, raise your glasses. If you don't, raise your standards.
Nova Andromeda wrote:Are you looking for something that is likely to work given all the current realities? I don't know of anything like that. Honestly, the rational humanist part of society needs to gain control of politics, but that's also a mission statement. I guess I'd start by organizing atheist, humanists, etc. and try to put together some sort of 'tradition' to replace that part that is so appealing about religion. I'd also encourage you to have more kids. I fear the fight will be generations at best.
So your answer to "how do we solve a specific institutional problem with the police" is "people who think like me need to take over society"?
You can't imagine a way to solve a specific institutional issue without completely changing society? What makes you think having "rational humanists" in charge means there won't be institutional problems in the police force? Do you think that social problems will automatically go away if we can just get everyone to have the correct beliefs (which means similar to your own I suspect), or put people with the correct beliefs in charge of the government?
