9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

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Ralin
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:Where is the evidence that this sort of voter fraud is a problem anyway? The only sort of voter fraud I ever hear about on any kind of wide scale actually being convicted involves Republicans removing qualified voters from the polls.
Does there need to be? I'm not saying that there's a rash of voter fraud, but this is the sort of thing that's seems so basically reasonable that I can't justify it not being a requirement.

That said, if it's going to be a requirement I agree that valid ID needs to be available for free.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:Where is the evidence that this sort of voter fraud is a problem anyway? The only sort of voter fraud I ever hear about on any kind of wide scale actually being convicted involves Republicans removing qualified voters from the polls.
Does there need to be? I'm not saying that there's a rash of voter fraud, but this is the sort of thing that's seems so basically reasonable that I can't justify it not being a requirement.

That said, if it's going to be a requirement I agree that valid ID needs to be available for free.
I don't see the point for laws that don't actually seem to solve any problems.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:I don't see the point for laws that don't actually seem to solve any problems.
Just because it's not a problem now doesn't mean it couldn't become one.

But like I said, I don't have any illusions why Republicans want to do this. I just don't think it makes sense not to require proof that you are who you say you are before you can vote. And photo ID is what you have to provide to do that in most other areas of life.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Blayne »

If it ain't broke, keep blaming Obama that it's broken so they elect you to fix it. - Colbert.

Voter fraud isn't a problem, I personally see no need to unnecessary laws, there's some 10,000 federal laws on the books that could in some way indite you unknowingly for a criminal activity if you aren't smart about your 5th amendment rights.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:I don't see the point for laws that don't actually seem to solve any problems.
Just because it's not a problem now doesn't mean it couldn't become one.

But like I said, I don't have any illusions why Republicans want to do this. I just don't think it makes sense not to require proof that you are who you say you are before you can vote. And photo ID is what you have to provide to do that in most other areas of life.
Let me put it another way. How is this not already solved by existing laws?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Todeswind »

1,784 votes. However the comparison is invalid for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the homeless can apparently obtain a different form for free. EDIT: As can apparently anyone in state with proof of residence otherwise unable to afford it.
A person who is registered to vote, but does not have an acceptable form of ID, may obtain a FREE PENNDOT PHOTO ID for voting purposes at a PennDOT Driver’s License Center
http://phillyelection.com/pa_voter_id_l ... meless.pdf

They aren't required to provide any information that wasn't already part of the voting process in PA in order to get their free ID.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Todeswind wrote:1,784 votes. However the comparison is invalid for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the homeless can apparently obtain a different form for free. EDIT: As can apparently anyone in state with proof of residence otherwise unable to afford it.
A person who is registered to vote, but does not have an acceptable form of ID, may obtain a FREE PENNDOT PHOTO ID for voting purposes at a PennDOT Driver’s License Center
http://phillyelection.com/pa_voter_id_l ... meless.pdf

They aren't required to provide any information that wasn't already part of the voting process in PA in order to get their free ID.
So that boils things down to my other question. What problems does a voter ID requirement fix that is not solved by existing laws?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:So that boils things down to my other question. What problems does a voter ID requirement fix that is not solved by existing laws?
The problem of someone being able to lie and say that they are someone else and vote in their name? How exactly are you supposed to prove that you are who you say you are without photo ID?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Course, nobody in the PA state legislature even remotely seriously tried to demonstrate that was in fact a problem before passing this law through a Republican controlled government. They could have, they didn't, because it isn't. Certainly nobody tried at all to demonstrate the gain out outweigh the disfranchisement that would result.

At best the law may stop some people from voting with completely fake names, going around stealing other peoples identities to vote in public buildings which often have security cameras isn't the brightest idea.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:So that boils things down to my other question. What problems does a voter ID requirement fix that is not solved by existing laws?
The problem of someone being able to lie and say that they are someone else and vote in their name? How exactly are you supposed to prove that you are who you say you are without photo ID?
If someone's really determined to stuff the ballot box don't you think there are better methods than getting a bunch of people without IDs to go down to the polls and fill out a form?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by evilsoup »

In the UK, I get sent a polling card in the post with my name on it, and I have to go to a designated polling station to vote. Is it the same in the US?

Surely it would require a pretty huge organisation to perpetrate voting fraud on any level that would remotely matter - each person would only be able to go to each polling station once, maybe twice if the polling officers are half-asleep. And the whole thing would be blown wide open if a few people actually did turn up to vote, only to find that their name had already been ticked off the list.

It just seems like a lot of effort for very little gain, and a practical certainty of getting caught.

Of course, I guess someone could steal my vote in particular if they wanted to... but that seems like a very strange thing for someone to want to do on an individual level, and besides it's not like photo ID cards are impossible to forge.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:If someone's really determined to stuff the ballot box don't you think there are better methods than getting a bunch of people without IDs to go down to the polls and fill out a form?
I'm not hearing an explanation of why it wouldn't work. And like you said, it took how many votes to win Florida for Bush?

Just because someone hasn't tried this yet doesn't mean we shouldn't make it hard for whoever decides to be the first.
Of course, I guess someone could steal my vote in particular if they wanted to... but that seems like a very strange thing for someone to want to do on an individual level
"Because I'm a dick and I want to fuck with you" seems like a pretty good possibility.
In the UK, I get sent a polling card in the post with my name on it, and I have to go to a designated polling station to vote. Is it the same in the US?
This does seem more reasonable.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by weemadando »

Stofsk wrote:
Blayne wrote:
Todeswind wrote:Considering that some forms of ID can apparently be done both online and through the mail I'm skeptical that that counts as a legitimate reason.
Dude, turnout is extremely low, why economically disincentivize voting? This is separate of course from the clearly constitutional/legal arguments.

Frankly election day should be a holiday so you have the day off to vote, or have polls open all week and allow for early mail in voting through run-off method.
Or you have polling day on the weekend.

Seriously this shit isn't hard.
Also, photo ID? Voter cards? Proof of address?

"Is this your electorate? Name? Address? OK, here's your ballot papers, number everything on the white one and put it in the white ballot box, put one number above the line or number all the boxes below the line on the pink one and put it in the pink ballot box."

Fuckin' controversial stuff.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Stark »

Even in the US, some states do it better than in AU. Its just cultural inertia.

And frankly, the best kind of 'voter fraud' is simply controlling who votes and who doesn't. That's why actual democracies try to make voting as inconvenient as possible and require or encourage all citizens to vote. I should look up the AEC guidelines and see how many states in the US run elections in a way that wouldn't be considered prejudiced.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ultonius »

A small proportion of that 9.2% could be members of the Amish community, who rarely have driving licences, and are probably reluctant to use a photographic form of identification anyway. According to the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies at Elizabethtown College, there were 61,270 Amish in Pennsylvania in 2011. Of course, that includes children too young to vote. Large families mean that under-18s often make up more than half the population of Amish communities, so for a conservative estimate I'll assume that only 20,000 of that population were over 18. That's less than 3% of 758,000, and even if the entire Amish population were adult, they would be less than 10% of it, so the vast majority must lack the cards for some other reason.

If this whole voter ID problem is a deliberate tactic by the Republicans, they may have damaged their cause somewhat, since the Amish, when they vote at all, usually vote Republican, due to the party's 'Christian values' and 'small government' reputation. In the 2004 Presidential election, the Republicans in Pennsylvania made a special effort to gain the Amish vote.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by someone_else »

Wait a sec, making a national ID card and give it to citizens for relatively free (like for Italy and most other places I know of) and requring the citizens to give that in ANY situation whaere identification is necessary was too hard?
This way it's a pain in the ass to keep out forgeries since it's a fucktons of different things to check.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Between 2002 and 2007, the Justice Department had an extensive investigation into voter fraud. In that period, they did not prosecute and convict a single person of impersonating an eligible voter and taking their place. Out of the 300 million votes, 86 people were convicted of electoral fraud, mainly felons who didn't know they weren't allowed to vote. Texas investigated their 2008 and 2010 elections and found five cases of "illegal voting." Indiiana has had a voter ID law since 2008, but that didn't prevent electoral officials from forging documents in 2008 or stop their secretary of state from committing felony voter fraud in 2010.

Not only is it trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, it's not even effective at it. In return you disenfranchise thousands upon thousands of people already marginalized in this country.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Zaune »

someone_else wrote:Wait a sec, making a national ID card and give it to citizens for relatively free (like for Italy and most other places I know of) and requring the citizens to give that in ANY situation whaere identification is necessary was too hard?
This way it's a pain in the ass to keep out forgeries since it's a fucktons of different things to check.
That sort of thing tends to be viewed with suspicion due to the potential for mission creep. There was a thread on it in SLAM a while back if you didn't see it.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

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Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:If someone's really determined to stuff the ballot box don't you think there are better methods than getting a bunch of people without IDs to go down to the polls and fill out a form?
I'm not hearing an explanation of why it wouldn't work. And like you said, it took how many votes to win Florida for Bush?

Just because someone hasn't tried this yet doesn't mean we shouldn't make it hard for whoever decides to be the first.
Because it's safer to use methods where you don't have hundreds of potential whistleblowers?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

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General Zod wrote:Because it's safer to use methods where you don't have hundreds of potential whistleblowers?
Okay, what the hell is the alternative? Let people vote without ID and just trust on the honor system that no one is lying? How the fuck does it make sense that the ID requirements for buying alcohol or getting on a plane are higher than the supposedly extremely important act of voting?
Wait a sec, making a national ID card and give it to citizens for relatively free (like for Italy and most other places I know of) and requring the citizens to give that in ANY situation whaere identification is necessary was too hard?
Well duh. That would be communism. Or fascism. Not that those aren't the same thing.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:Because it's safer to use methods where you don't have hundreds of potential whistleblowers?
Okay, what the hell is the alternative? Let people vote without ID and just trust on the honor system that no one is lying? How the fuck does it make sense that the ID requirements for buying alcohol or getting on a plane are higher than the supposedly extremely important act of voting?
Why bother using live voters when they can just look up dead people's IDs and request mail-in ballots?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:Why bother using live voters when they can just look up dead people's IDs and request mail-in ballots?
You're still not really answering my question.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by General Zod »

Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:Why bother using live voters when they can just look up dead people's IDs and request mail-in ballots?
You're still not really answering my question.
I'm still waiting on an answer of how it's not solved by existing laws. Are you saying you're so familiar with our current legislation that you can confidently say there's no laws on the books that don't already take care of it?
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

Post by Ralin »

General Zod wrote:I'm still waiting on an answer of how it's not solved by existing laws. Are you saying you're so familiar with our current legislation that you can confidently say there's no laws on the books that don't already take care of it?
No, but that doesn't change the fact that requiring the same standard of proof that you have to provide for most other things in life is pretty damned reasonable.
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Re: 9% of Pennsylvanian voters not allowed to vote.

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Ralin wrote:
General Zod wrote:I'm still waiting on an answer of how it's not solved by existing laws. Are you saying you're so familiar with our current legislation that you can confidently say there's no laws on the books that don't already take care of it?
No, but that doesn't change the fact that requiring the same standard of proof that you have to provide for most other things in life is pretty damned reasonable.
Some standard of proof, sure. Limiting it to just one specific piece of ID? No. Alternate forms of ID should be allowed. If there's found to be a problem their vote can be stricken in the review process.
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