What it's like to be arrested in America

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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Simon_Jester »

Raw Shark wrote:5: The author's hypothesis, extrajudicial punishment for suspicion of having the wrong politics, at least deserves to be on the list of possible reasons if assumption of elite commando skillz makes the cut... It would certainly explain why we don't seem to hear about this sort of abuse in most drug possession cases.
Honestly I'd call that the individual policeman being a fuckup- it's practically indistinguishable.

As long as it's not a policy of "we always do this to political prisoners," it's a disciplinary issue, not a "WAAAH PIGS HAVE NO OVERSIGHT" issue.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by madd0ct0r »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote: What happened in the article wasn't even that bad, comparatively. I spot three main things. 1) The author never saw a warrant. This is the worst offense here, if the police really didn't have a warrant, as opposed to the author just not seeing one. 2) The police didn't let the author use the restroom when he needed to. This, I think, falls under the category of "dick move," but can also possibly be explained by a lack of personell on hand, there was a major event going on in the city at the time. 3) The author was held without charges for longer than is legal, by six hours, which, once again, might just be due to the police department being somewhat overwhelmed, with the NATO summit and a large protest going on at the same time.
4) or possibly 0) - His electronic stuff was stolen or lost by the police - In terms of fundamental problems, it sounds less then a warrant, but if t were me personally, having my camera go missing would probably piss me off the most. Especially f I'd been using that camera to film the protests.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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General Zod wrote: So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Ralin »

Skgoa wrote:Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Because we're either not used to it (most Americans) or feel that we hear entirely too much about them (many Americans on this forum).
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote: So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Because people start using the negative points to incorrectly say the US is usually like this?
See the topic title for example
"What it's like to be arrested in America"

This is an outlier, not a regular experience. Yet it's portrayed by the misleading title in such a way that this is what you should expect should you get arrested... and it's not.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote: So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Do you ever wonder what it would be like to log on every day and get insulted over stuff that is typically outside your control? I don't even like the American government but the anti america stuff here is often ridiculous.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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I'd like to remind people that it is indeed fallacious to generalize out of one (or five) news articles either way.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by General Zod »

Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote: So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Why is it that idiots whine about having their own logic thrown back in their face?
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Simon_Jester »

Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote:So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Because someone takes a thing that happened in America rarely. Then they claim that it happens 'routinely.' This is a great way of making the US civil rights record look like the Stasi reborn. Which gets pretty tiresome for people who don't enjoy being lied about.

Or some bizarre fringe group that makes up like 5% of the population does X. And we get people asking "why do Americans do X?" It's ridiculous, but it passes without comment in the right echo chamber.

I can talk about the US's problems like an adult. But why should I bother to waste time doing it, if you won't do it?
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote:So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Because someone takes a thing that happened in America rarely. Then they claim that it happens 'routinely.' This is a great way of making the US civil rights record look like the Stasi reborn. Which gets pretty tiresome for people who don't enjoy being lied about.

Or some bizarre fringe group that makes up like 5% of the population does X. And we get people asking "why do Americans do X?" It's ridiculous, but it passes without comment in the right echo chamber.

I can talk about the US's problems like an adult. But why should I bother to waste time doing it, if you won't do it?

Yep, pretty much this, my entire involvement in this thread stems from the incident in the OP being refered to as "typical," when it actually only happens some tiny fraction of a percent of the time. Its insulting, and I'm sure I'm not the only American board member that gets sick of being casually insulted here whenever the U.S. features in a news story.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Since some people seem to be confused, I'd like to point out that I am an American. Believe it or not, it is possible to love something and still criticize parts of it. I love my father, but hate the fact that he smokes 2 packs a day, even when we're in the car and I'm trapped with the smoke.

And to those people who say this is just one bad experience, I'd be happy to go search through news stories and blog posts for more examples. I remember reading several such stories every day during OWS. Although it happening even once is too much.

As to why this happened and why I believe it's not exactly a rare occurrence, it's because he was doing something that wasn't illegal but the cops still didn't like and wanted him to stop doing it. The probably unwarranted raid and they way he was treated was clearly to scare the protesters so they wouldn't protest. It was a terror tactic, plain and simple. I'm sure people who get arrested for petty larceny or drunk driving or other basic crimes get treated reasonably well. 90-95% are treated well, I'm sure. But that doesn't make the other 5-10% okay.

Despite all the sneering and tittering going on in this thread, there are simple, common sense things we can do to prevent this kind of tactic: We can make it so the police and other people the government has chosen to give authority not self-policing. Make it so that judges can force police to discipline officers, even if the plaintiff/victim doesn't deserve monetary damages for a police screw up. Or my favorite plan, create a federal agency with the sole purpose of making sure those in authority don't abuse said authority.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by General Zod »

Dominus Atheos wrote: And to those people who say this is just one bad experience, I'd be happy to go search through news stories and blog posts for more examples. I remember reading several such stories every day during OWS. Although it happening even once is too much.
People aren't saying it's just a one-off, but we're saying it's not as common as some people in this thread think it is.
As to why this happened and why I believe it's not exactly a rare occurrence, it's because he was doing something that wasn't illegal but the cops still didn't like and wanted him to stop doing it. The probably unwarranted raid and they way he was treated was clearly to scare the protesters so they wouldn't protest. It was a terror tactic, plain and simple. I'm sure people who get arrested for petty larceny or drunk driving or other basic crimes get treated reasonably well. 90-95% are treated well, I'm sure. But that doesn't make the other 5-10% okay.
How do you define "rare"? Until you give a definition it's easy to shift the goalposts every time someone doesn't agree with a number.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Dominus Atheos »

And I don't want to prove Godwin's law, but have the people in this thread who said that there's nothing they can do ever heard Martin Niemöller's famous quote "First they came for the communists"?

What I'm saying is that if the stories about American police abuses makes you offended that people are saying so many bad things about your country, your first reaction should be getting angry that your country does so many bad things!
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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General Zod wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:As to why this happened and why I believe it's not exactly a rare occurrence, it's because he was doing something that wasn't illegal but the cops still didn't like and wanted him to stop doing it. The probably unwarranted raid and they way he was treated was clearly to scare the protesters so they wouldn't protest. It was a terror tactic, plain and simple. I'm sure people who get arrested for petty larceny or drunk driving or other basic crimes get treated reasonably well. 90-95% are treated well, I'm sure. But that doesn't make the other 5-10% okay.
How do you define "rare"? Until you give a definition it's easy to shift the goalposts every time someone doesn't agree with a number.
Read the last two sentences in that quote.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Dominus Atheos wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:As to why this happened and why I believe it's not exactly a rare occurrence, it's because he was doing something that wasn't illegal but the cops still didn't like and wanted him to stop doing it. The probably unwarranted raid and they way he was treated was clearly to scare the protesters so they wouldn't protest. It was a terror tactic, plain and simple. I'm sure people who get arrested for petty larceny or drunk driving or other basic crimes get treated reasonably well. 90-95% are treated well, I'm sure. But that doesn't make the other 5-10% okay.
How do you define "rare"? Until you give a definition it's easy to shift the goalposts every time someone doesn't agree with a number.
Read the last two sentences in that quote.
Okay, now what are you basing that number on? If this figure is to be believed, between 2009 and 2010 there were just under 6000 instances of police abuse reported. Assuming 600,000 police employed within the US (from a quick Google search), that amounts to less than 1% of cops being abusive assholes.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Aaron MkII wrote:
Skgoa wrote:
General Zod wrote: So Germany's full of cannibals right? I won't be eaten if I visit will I?
Why is it that americans get this childish every time a negative point about the US is mentioned?
Do you ever wonder what it would be like to log on every day and get insulted over stuff that is typically outside your control? I don't even like the American government but the anti america stuff here is often ridiculous.
"insulted"?

Why do you take it as a personal insult when people say there's something wrong with your society? You probably look around every day and complain about things you don't like about your society, but when someone outside your borders says the same thing, you take it as an insult to yourself?
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Darth Wong wrote:"insulted"?

Why do you take it as a personal insult when people say there's something wrong with your society? You probably look around every day and complain about things you don't like about your society, but when someone outside your borders says the same thing, you take it as an insult to yourself?
Wouldn't/don't you get annoyed by hearing Americans constantly running down Canada and everything about it? Especially if it's something you think isn't true, or at least exaggerated?

EDIT: Also I'm pretty sure Aaron is Canadian.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Darth Wong wrote: Why do you take it as a personal insult when people say there's something wrong with your society? You probably look around every day and complain about things you don't like about your society, but when someone outside your borders says the same thing, you take it as an insult to yourself?
I'd prefer it if they weren't just completely making shit up in their complaints.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Dominus Atheos »

General Zod wrote:Okay, now what are you basing that number on? If this figure is to be believed, between 2009 and 2010 there were just under 6000 instances of police abuse reported. Assuming 600,000 police employed within the US (from a quick Google search), that amounts to less than 1% of cops being abusive assholes.
The source of that statistic is news stories in which allegations of misconduct were officially reported. I don't think the OP reported misconduct as he thought it would be pointless despite the fact that most people would agree that his arrest and standard of care is well below what should be reasonably expected when forced into the custody of public employees. So that statistic is useless.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by General Zod »

Dominus Atheos wrote:
General Zod wrote:Okay, now what are you basing that number on? If this figure is to be believed, between 2009 and 2010 there were just under 6000 instances of police abuse reported. Assuming 600,000 police employed within the US (from a quick Google search), that amounts to less than 1% of cops being abusive assholes.
The source of that statistic is news stories in which allegations of misconduct were officially reported. I don't think the OP reported misconduct as he thought it would be pointless despite the fact that most people would agree that his arrest and standard of care is well below what should be reasonably expected when forced into the custody of public employees. So that statistic is useless.
If you can find some better numbers I'm all ears.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

Darth Wong wrote: "insulted"?

Why do you take it as a personal insult when people say there's something wrong with your society? You probably look around every day and complain about things you don't like about your society, but when someone outside your borders says the same thing, you take it as an insult to yourself?

I don't know about you, but I find it insulting when someone makes a broad, sweeping, generalization that lumps me in with people that the only thing I have in common with is being born in the same continent-spanning country.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Aaron MkII »

Darth Wong wrote: "insulted"?

Why do you take it as a personal insult when people say there's something wrong with your society? You probably look around every day and complain about things you don't like about your society, but when someone outside your borders says the same thing, you take it as an insult to yourself?
I'm Canadian dude.

Edit: But yeah, I'd get annoyed if people started using things like the RCMP killing that Polish guy in the Vancouver airport as a "typical" incident, or the FLQ crisis as evidence that Canada has a problem with terrorists.
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Chicago Tribune
As the NATO summit approached, Chicago police Friday continued to hold several people suspected of making Molotov cocktails but would say nothing about the arrests, adding to a growing mystery over the nature of the investigation.

Police earlier Friday released from custody — without charging — four of the nine people who were swept up in a late-night Wednesday raid of a Bridgeport apartment building. Two more were released Friday night without charges.

According to law enforcement sources and police reports obtained by the Tribune, the arrests were the result of a monthlong investigation into a group suspected of making Molotov cocktails — crude bombs usually created by filling glass bottles with gasoline.

But the National Lawyers Guild criticized the police raid, saying the nine NATO protesters only had beer-making equipment in their possession.

The nine range in age from their 20s to a 66-year-old grandfather with a heart condition. Several are affiliated with the Occupy movement and had arrived in Chicago in recent weeks from California, North Carolina, Massachusetts and elsewhere.

Details of the investigation remain murky.

Chicago police and Cook County prosecutors so far have declined to publicly discuss or even acknowledge the arrests in the 1000 block of West 32nd Street, even as the conduct of the officers has come under criticism from those arrested and other building residents.

Witnesses described police officers dressed all in black armed with battering rams and guns drawn swarming into the building, conducting warrantless searches and refusing to tell them what was going on.

One resident told the Tribune police taunted him and his roommate, repeatedly calling them communists and using anti-gay slurs.

Adding to the mystery, two other individuals were detained in separate arrests Thursday.

A 24-year-old man was arrested at his Northwest Side home for allegedly conspiring to build Molotov cocktails, while a 28-year-old West Side man, who is on probation for a 2011 conviction for the aggravated battery of a police officer, was arrested for allegedly attempting to possess an explosive device, according to sources and police records.

The second individual was scheduled to appear in bond court Friday but was pulled at the last second for an unexplained reason.

Darrin Annussek, 36, one of the four released Friday, said he was detained for 30 hours, including being handcuffed and shackled for 18 hours in an “interrogation room.” He said police refused his request to use a restroom and did not read him his constitutional rights.

“None of us were told why this was happening,” other than that he was being held on a “conspiracy” charge, Annussek told reporters Friday outside the Harrison District station.

Annussek, a laid-off social worker, said he began marching in November from Philadelphia to Atlanta “to try and spread the positive message of Occupy Wall Street.” He arrived in Chicago in time for the May Day march.

“To be charged with felony conspiracy to endanger anybody's life is not only a slap in the face, it's against everything I stand for,” he said.

The wife of the 66-year-old suspect, who was also released Friday without charges, said her husband told her he was trying to get police to return his cellphone, a computer and his heart medicine. She laughed when told about the bomb-making allegations.

“He's a pretty middle-of-the-road, very pacifist kind of guy,” she said. “That is the most ridiculous thing.”

A 25-year-old resident of the Bridgeport building said he heard a loud bang at about 11:30 p.m. Wednesday as police swarmed into his second-floor unit with guns drawn.

Police pulled his sleeping roommate out of bed, he said.

“The only thing we were told was that we were in the middle of an investigation,” said the man, who spoke to the Tribune on the condition he not be identified.

Police found books in the apartment that included one with selected writings by Karl Marx. The resident said police handcuffed him and his roommate, ignored their complaints the cuffs were too tight, repeatedly called them communists and used anti-gay slurs.

“These guys were bullying us, harassing us and mocking us,” the man said. “They were cruel.”

He said neither he nor his roommate is involved in any NATO protests and did not know any of the nine who were detained.

Another resident, a 26-year-old man, said he was on the back porch outside his third-floor apartment smoking a cigarette when police appeared with guns drawn and began climbing the back fire-escape steps.

The man, who also spoke to the Tribune on condition his name wasn’t published, said the officers never physically mishandled him.

“They were very nice about stomping on my civil rights,” he said.

Sarah Gelsomino, an attorney with the National Lawyers Guild, confirmed that two people arrested in Bridgeport were released, Daniel Murphy and Robert LaMorte.

They believe that three people who were arrested are still in custody, Gelsomino said. Police would not confirm that.

Gelsomino said authorities have to release the other three by midnight if they aren't charged because they would have hit a 48-hour deadline for criminal suspects.

Lawyers from the Guild are going into the station to try to get more information. If they are not released or charged, the Guild will move forward with habeas corpus motions.

Gelsomino said it was an illegal search.

After midnight, about 40 supporters remained outside of the police station, awaiting the release of the three who remained in custody. Speaking with reporters and supporters, Gelsomino said she and other guild attorneys hoped to speak with investigators sometime this morning.

"We don’t have a lot to tell you because we’re still in the dark," she told the crowd.

Following his release, LaMorte, 21, of South Carolina, said he had been in Chicago for less than an hour when he was arrested.

He said he had hitchhiked from New York to Gary and received a ride from a friend to Chicago. He said he was never told what he was held for.

“I’m leaving here first chance I get,” LaMorte said. “I don’t want to deal with any more problems.”
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

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Chicago Tribune
Inside the Bridgeport apartment, police and prosecutors say, three men who'd traveled to Chicago to protest the NATO summit filled beer bottles with gasoline and talked about how to use them.

"While the Molotov cocktails were being poured, (defendant Brian Church) discussed the NATO summit, the protests and how the Molotov cocktails would be used for violence and intimidating acts of destruction," Assistant State's Attorney Matthew Thrun said in a court document. "At one point, Church asked if others had ever seen a 'cop on fire' and discussed throwing one of the Molotov cocktails into the 9th District police station."

The three were charged Friday with conspiracy to commit terrorism and other crimes. The men planned to attack Mayor Rahm Emanuel's home, President Barack Obama's campaign headquarters in the Loop and "certain downtown financial institutions," prosecutors said.

Prosecutors say the men were members of the "Black Bloc" — a group of self-proclaimed anarchists whose tactics typically involve wreaking chaos within otherwise peaceful protests. The challenge for Chicago police has been to guard against that sort of trouble while shepherding thousands of nonviolent demonstrators around town safely.

So we bristled when Sarah Gelsomino, an attorney from the National Lawyers Guild, which is representing the three men, said the arrests were part of "an intimidation campaign on activists." What intimidation campaign?

Within hours after the charges were announced, hundreds of demonstrators had been summoned to Jackson Boulevard and LaSalle Street to protest the oppression of "the NATO 3." A Twitter post from the Occupy Chicago movement complained of "bogus terrorism charges" against nonviolent protesters.

Certainly, the men are innocent unless proven guilty.

Maybe there's some other explanation for what police believe was going on in the apartment Wednesday night. People in possession of far fewer facts were happy to embrace the claim that the men were brewing homemade beer, not making Molotov cocktails.

Given the evidence prosecutors outlined in their proffer, though, it's clear police had no choice but to interrupt the gathering. Chicago police and federal agents had been watching the men for a month and moved in because they felt an "imminent threat," police Superintendent Garry McCarthy said. According to the proffer, the men were about to load their homemade bombs into a car.

"What we believe is that this is a way to stir up prejudice against people exercising their First Amendment rights," said Michael Deutsch, an attorney for the men.

That doesn't square with what Chicagoans have witnessed in the days leading up to the summit, as thousands of activists took advantage of the international spotlight to draw attention to every cause under the sun.

A handful of arrests were made Monday at a pop-up protest outside Obama's campaign headquarters. On Tuesday, immigrant groups marched through the West Loop demanding an end to deportations, and South Siders joined in a protest against global police oppression. Wednesday's marchers called for a moratorium on home foreclosures; Thursday's protesters carried pink Mylar balloons and demanded an end to NATO military operations.

On Friday, National Nurses United staged a rally to call for a "Robin Hood" tax on financial transactions to pay for safety net programs. The event attracted thousands of demonstrators representing dozens of causes.

Throughout it all, we've seen nothing to support Gelsomino's claim that "police have been terrorizing activists in Chicago."

Their marching orders, spelled out weeks ago by McCarthy, were to "protect free speech, First Amendment rights, while at the same time ensure criminal activity is dealt with swiftly."

The NATO 3 will have their day in court. Maybe, like thousands of others, they came to town to protest peacefully. But police had good cause to question that. Good call.
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Re: What it's like to be arrested in America

Post by Aaron MkII »

Ok, I know there is a thing in the US about Communism but a book with Karl Marx writings? Really? it's 2012 for fucks sake, the cold war has been over for 20 years.
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