Daniel Tosh - Offensively unfunny misogynist

[Terralthra]

So, I take it you haven't read any of the studies or evidence or logic I and others have been posting this whole thread? You're still treating it like it's just an issue of "political correctness", itself a term popularized by conservative opinion columnists to resist progressive politics by appealing to fears of a culture war.

I personally find those conclusions perfectly believable, but I also think they're beside the point. Scrib's argument is not based on the idea that rape jokes are harmless. It's based on the idea that disrupting an entertainment event is an obnoxious thing to do. There are plenty of studies which suggest that violence in movies and television can affect peoples' thinking, and many movies promote extremely offensive stereotypes or condition us to accept dangerous ideas (eg- militaristic thinking, which is incredibly common in blockbuster movies), but you generally don't see self-appointed morality police walking into theatres with bullhorns and trying to disrupt everyone's experience. If they want to protest, they choose other venues.

The issue I have is that phrases like "holier-than-thou" aren't usually used of people who have a legitimate grievance. I see this all the fucking time in communities where people raise legitimate concerns about important issues, but aren't listened to or are brushed off because it would cause "drama." Personally, if it's between "encourages rapists to think their behavior is normal and widespread" and "briefly annoys some people trying to have a good evening out," I'm not sure I fall so firmly on the side of "don't annoy people!"

I know that guilt by association is fallacious, but there are people who are reacting to this controversy by telling the blogger in question (and other female bloggers who are signal-boosting it) that they need to get raped themselves, that they must be on their period, or that they're just cunts. That obviously doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with the heckler's actions is similarly misogynist, but it's certainly notable in and of itself.

[Metahive]

They probably weren't laughing because of the rape joke, they did so because she was a heckler. Sorry, but when you go around fucking with people's experiences they fuck with you back. It was mean and spiteful, but I don't know about most people, comedy clubs and the like are things they go out to enjoy rarely, it's not surprising that a culture of dislike for hecklers would grow and get out of hand once.

Sorry, pure bullshit since Tosh's entire shtick was already about making fun of rape which had the audience on the floor LOLing. You're reaching.

You may also not give a shit in this particular case, good for you, but in any situation where one holier than thou fuckstick decides to interfere in other people's experience in a probably ineffectual and disruptive way, then said crowd will indeed be against her. Like I said, everyone has a fucking cause, the religious people sit quiet for religious jokes, the vegetarians shut the fuck up, the people with children with Downs or whatever wriggle uncomfortably, and so on as we get further down the line and more uncomfortable. It's a good rule of thumb to just realise that your idea of what's right and wrong is not at the center of people's reality, and will never be. Now you may feel like you've found the fucking holy grail of uncomfortable subjects, one that allows you to be a disruptive asshole with little to no repercussion, but the comedian and his fans also found theirs: hecklers.

I notice you ignored something I said earlier, it's important for comedians to not kick down on the totem pole, especially not against people who can't help their condition. Vegetarians and the religious are so by choice, women and racial minorities are not. Therefore making fun of them is not only lazy but also something that obstructs social progress. Sexist misogynism is still rampant in western society, it must be attacked and countered whenever it rears its head.

And what exactly prevents you from walking out, complaining, starting a petition, organizing a boycott, all of which are probably more effective in the long run than getting yourself mocked and thrown out? I mean, if you're a self-righteous attention whore I can see why you would pick the heckling option but there are ways to deal with outrage without pissing on everyone because you think you're so superior.

It's not pissing on everyone, it's pissing on misogynist scumbags. It's much more effective to counter assholes just as they're doing their asshole thing than later, since it shows them right there that their BS isn't tolerated by everyone.

Finally, let it be known that I'm of the firm opinion that encouraging and perpetuating rape culture is far higher on the scale of douchebaggery than disrupting some third-rate comedian. Therefore preaching to me about the evils of heckling in this situation falls on deaf ears.

[Blayne]

Maybe I don't get out much or see many comedians but:

I notice you ignored something I said earlier, it's important for comedians to not kick down on the totem pole, especially not against people who can't help their condition. Vegetarians and the religious are so by choice, women and racial minorities are not. Therefore making fun of them is not only lazy but also something that obstructs social progress. Sexist misogynism is still rampant in western society, it must be attacked and countered whenever it rears its head.

I have never known this to be the case, I mean, just look at South Park or again, Christopher Titus who made fun of both White and Black people on his new comedy special and women on his previous one.

[Darth Wong]

Finally, let it be known that I'm of the firm opinion that encouraging and perpetuating rape culture is far higher on the scale of douchebaggery than disrupting some third-rate comedian. Therefore preaching to me about the evils of heckling in this situation falls on deaf ears.

Yeah, I'm sure that if a woman stands up in a comedy show and acts exactly the way misogynists expect a stereotypical "shrill feminist" to act, that will change a lot of minds.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That obviously doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with the heckler's actions is similarly misogynist, but it's certainly notable in and of itself.

Yeah... the internet is a fucked up place sometimes.

Sexist misogynism is still rampant in western society, it must be attacked and countered whenever it rears its head.

Yes it is. It is also not something people like to talk about.

I laugh at gay jokes. I crack gay jokes. Does that mean I am a homophobe or encouraging it? Hardly. Hell, just today, I made a joke about how I tried to kill my little sister while I was still in the womb, before she was even conceived due to my mom being Rh- and both my sister and I RH+. Does this mean that I find babies born with hemolytic diseases and Jaundice to be a good state of affairs? No.

Humor, in addition to have evolving as a social signal, can also be used to open up conversations, by lowering someone's defenses and making it permissible to discuss taboo subjects.

Some subset of people laugh at rape jokes because they hate women. Other people laugh at rape jokes as a means of dealing with its horribleness. Look at it from the other angle. Not from the point of view of the victim's suffering, but as a dispassionate observer of the rapist. The rapist, one who is so insecure that he resorts to taking power for himself by violating someone else, can be an object of considerable humor. A properly constructed rape joke has you laughing at the rapist, not the raped.

Now, I am not saying Daniel Tosh should not take some flak at apologize. He should. Whether he was simply trying to bite back at a heckler, or make a point about humor, he failed. I can see where he was going with it either way, but what he said was not appropriate. It happens, every comedian flubs, it is the nature of the line they dance around. But to say that rape jokes should be out of our dialogue as a society is misplaced.

[Darth Wong]

I haven't spoken much about the particular performance in question for the simple reason that I didn't see it, and comedy is a notoriously delicate thing. Transcribe it, especially in pieces, and the whole impression can be completely lost. It may be entirely possible that it didn't seem as vile in person as it does from the quotes. Or maybe it was every bit as vile; I don't know. I just know that sometimes, something looks worse in a quote than it did in context, in person. I've heard race jokes that I considered funny, and I've heard race jokes that I considered just plain racist. Sometimes, the delivery is a big part of the distinction.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe it's like the flowchart here.

http://talkinreckless.com/2011/02/07/wh ... rape-joke/

Some rape jokes are all right because they're utterly absurd in all ways- they don't legitimize real rape. Other rape jokes are all right because they don't take the rapist's side- most jokes take sides. But jokes that do take the rapist's side, that present it as being normal for guys to talk and think about raping women- maybe we should have second thoughts about jokes like that, and look at all these studies talking about how they may be tying back into the actual rape rate.

...

Anyway, "she shouldn't heckle a comedian." I see a lot of people saying that.

I have to ask: does it matter?

Whether the heckler woman should have been heckling or not is irrelevant. Tosh is a grown man, he gets to decide what he says. The "she shouldn't heckle" thing just seems like a red herring, a way to avoid Tosh having responsibility for his own words.

[Darth Wong]

Maybe it's like the flowchart here.

http://talkinreckless.com/2011/02/07/wh ... rape-joke/

Some rape jokes are all right because they're utterly absurd in all ways- they don't legitimize real rape. Other rape jokes are all right because they don't take the rapist's side- most jokes take sides. But jokes that do take the rapist's side, that present it as being normal for guys to talk and think about raping women- maybe we should have second thoughts about jokes like that, and look at all these studies talking about how they may be tying back into the actual rape rate.

...

Anyway, "she shouldn't heckle a comedian." I see a lot of people saying that.

I have to ask: does it matter?

Whether the heckler woman should have been heckling or not is irrelevant. Tosh is a grown man, he gets to decide what he says. The "she shouldn't heckle" thing just seems like a red herring, a way to avoid Tosh having responsibility for his own words.

Who said Tosh isn't responsible for his own words? I don't recall anyone saying that. I'm just saying that his response to her heckling is not unusual at all; comedians are often quite abusive to hecklers, for the reasons outlined. If we're talking about what he said before she heckled, then sure, it's a red herring.

[Simon_Jester]

Eh. I figure I can still call him slime for his response to the heckling, even if people like him respond that way a lot.

[Darth Wong]

By the way, since the comparisons to Michael Richards' infamous racist incident are inevitable, I thought it might be interesting to link to the forum thread from that old incident:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=100915

I think it's worth noting that Richards didn't just say one racist thing, but actually went on an extended racist tirade, hence the greater degree of vitriol directed at him (also, there's the fact that people could see the video, and see his tone and demeanour).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Whether the heckler woman should have been heckling or not is irrelevant. Tosh is a grown man, he gets to decide what he says. The "she shouldn't heckle" thing just seems like a red herring, a way to avoid Tosh having responsibility for his own words.

It is less about her initiating an exchange as it is about the assumption of risk. You start heckling the comedian, and he will improvise stuff about YOU, personally. That is just how it is, like mom and pop restaurants in italy being "all you can eat" in the "all you are physically capable of fitting down your throat" sort of way.

Or a better example

If you do not like being hugged, hit on, or groped by other men, going into a gay-oriented nightclub is probably not a place you want to venture in to. Those things are culturally acceptable inside that social context, not so much outside of it. If you go in, you are accepting everything that goes with it, unless you take steps to avoid it (Like wearing an "I am straight" T Shirt). If you go to a comedy club, there is a good chance that one of the guys on stage will say something that raises your hackles, especially with an ensemble. Some may pick on their audience as an integral part of their act. Some may poke at race issues, others religion. If you get mad and heckle them, it is putting a "taunt me" sign on your back. It is an act of forbearance, in that context, if they DONT proceed to taunt you.

Sometimes, the delivery is a big part of the distinction.

Oh hell yes. I can see this particular joke being delivered in two ways, one as a declarative statement where he may have been looking for audience agreement. The other as an aside remark upon irony. The only way to tell the difference would be voice tone and body posture.

[Magis]

I keep asking people but so far all I seem to get is goose-stepping around the answer. How is "wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys raped her" a joke?

Why don't you just look up 'joke' in a goddamn dictionary?

1) something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act

If he was trying to make people laugh, then it was a joke. If people did laugh, then I guess his joke worked as intended. Sheesh. This isn't fucking rocket science.

[Flagg]

By the way, since the comparisons to Michael Richards' infamous racist incident are inevitable, I thought it might be interesting to link to the forum thread from that old incident:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=100915

I think it's worth noting that Richards didn't just say one racist thing, but actually went on an extended racist tirade, hence the greater degree of vitriol directed at him (also, there's the fact that people could see the video, and see his tone and demeanour).

The Richards thing was just him losing his shit and trying out racism, which he clearly isn't good at since he doesn't know how to lynch someone. This Tosh thing sounds like what others have said, him dealing with a heckler in probably not the best way.

[Broomstick]

If the situation was something like "isn't watching a guy getting his ass beat by 5 guys funny? You always get that one pussy hanging out doing nothing until the one guy is lying in the ground, then the pussy comes in and hits him once then runs."
"Getting jumped isn't funny!"
"Wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys just beat that dudes ass right now?"

would we have this kind of controversy?

Not sure, but I for one find that scenario just as un-funny as Tosh saying it would be funny for a female heckler to be gang-raped by 5 guys.

The right to speak freely is not free of responsibility for consequences. If you stand up at a performance and heckle a likely consequence is being targeted by the performer(s) on stage or ejected from the venue. On the other hand, suggesting gang-rape is an appropriate response to a heckle is all out of proportion to the harm done, and if later on some members of the audience act on that suggestion - whether it was said in jest or not - then I think a consequence might well involve being accused of provoking, suggesting, or somehow abetting a crime.

Now, IF Tosh had immediately followed up with "No - guys, ACTUALLY raping her wouldn't be funny, but this joke is..." or something else to indicate that no, he really didn't mean to suggest anyone do anything of the sort then yeah, not so bad. He would have responded to his heckler, made his point, and moved on. As reported (because I wasn't there and neither were you and all accounts are second hand here) I could see a potential for some suggestible shady characters taking him up on the "suggestion".

Are some rape or rape-related jokes funny? In a dark/morbid manner, yes, they can be. Humor can be a defense mechanism or a way to deal with fears. ACTUAL rape is not funny, nor is suggesting actual rape.

I think there are better ways Tosh could have dealt with this. That's strictly my opinion, of course, yours may differ.

ETA: I also think that if you're that offended maybe you should just get up and leave instead of heckling. The audience bitch didn't handle this well, either.

[blahface]

Update on Huffington Post

UPDATE: Laugh Factory owner Jamie Masada, who claims to have been present the night of Tosh's show, has told Buzzfeed that the comedian's exchange with the offended audience member didn't happen the way she described.

According to Masada, Tosh didn't make a joke about the woman getting raped and the topic arose when the comedian asked the audience what they wanted to talk about and someone said "rape." He says that this is when the woman called out to Tosh, and that he responded like so:

"Daniel came in, and he said, 'Well it sounds like she’s been raped by five guys' — something like that. I really didn’t hear properly."

He also alleges that the woman stayed for the entire set and did not complain to management until after the show.

[Kuja]

Rob already posted it. I think it seems fishy, myself.

[Darth Wong]

That's what happens when there are no recordings. Two different sides, two different stories.

[Kuja]

That's what happens when there are no recordings. Two different sides, two different stories.

Unfortunately. I just don't put much stock in Masada's version of the story since in his version Tosh invites the audience to give feedback and the woman's line seems more directed at a fellow audience member than the guy on stage, while Tosh's tweet calls it heckling which seems more in line with her version of how things happened.

[Darth Fanboy]

It really doesn't matter that much, because Masada's side still confirms that Tosh directed a pretty shameful statement at a member of the audience. Masada admits he didn't hear the whole thing clearly and there is no disputing that Tosh directed a pretty nasty and hurtful comment otherwise he wouldn't be issuing such a rare apology. I still think the lady should have gotten her money back, but only because of how nasty the comment was. If she had just sat through the show and not been directly targeted I wouldn't think that.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd be surprised if he offered an apology for any reason other then the producers of Tosh.0 got a phone call from Comedy Central saying that they were concerned this might affect sponsorship if it wasn't nipped early. But impossible to really know, just because someone is an asshole as a comedian and on a TV show playing a bit doesn't mean they are completely awful person all the time. He might actually have regretted it. Might not.

[Meest]

He did apologize on twitter on Tuesday, incident happened on Friday, not sure when the blog when up that started it all, guessing the weekend. He posted “all the out of context misquotes aside, i’d like to sincerely apologize.” then followed with “the point i was making before i was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them.” Sounds pretty genuine and in a way shows his viewpoint on comedy, maybe in his mind he's helping people cope or that's how he copes.

Was a good point in the thread regarding gender, there's plenty of male drop the soap jokes that make it into movies and tv shows, why is that tolerated? Sure it's not directed at a heckler, but from what people are saying here in the thread it's not appropriate talk for any entertainment form. Heckler isn't a fictional person is that the line being drawn that changes a joke to trying to incite an act?

[Scrib]

They probably weren't laughing because of the rape joke, they did so because she was a heckler. Sorry, but when you go around fucking with people's experiences they fuck with you back. It was mean and spiteful, but I don't know about most people, comedy clubs and the like are things they go out to enjoy rarely, it's not surprising that a culture of dislike for hecklers would grow and get out of hand once.

Sorry, pure bullshit since Tosh's entire shtick was already about making fun of rape which had the audience on the floor LOLing. You're reaching.

I'm not saying that they didn't laugh at the rape joke before, I'm saying that they laughed at Tosh's response regardless of whether it was funny or not simply because it was a heckler. And "on the floor LOLing"? Really? Did I miss something in the article or are you overstating?

You may also not give a shit in this particular case, good for you, but in any situation where one holier than thou fuckstick decides to interfere in other people's experience in a probably ineffectual and disruptive way, then said crowd will indeed be against her. Like I said, everyone has a fucking cause, the religious people sit quiet for religious jokes, the vegetarians shut the fuck up, the people with children with Downs or whatever wriggle uncomfortably, and so on as we get further down the line and more uncomfortable. It's a good rule of thumb to just realise that your idea of what's right and wrong is not at the center of people's reality, and will never be. Now you may feel like you've found the fucking holy grail of uncomfortable subjects, one that allows you to be a disruptive asshole with little to no repercussion, but the comedian and his fans also found theirs: hecklers.

I notice you ignored something I said earlier, it's important for comedians to not kick down on the totem pole, especially not against people who can't help their condition. Vegetarians and the religious are so by choice, women and racial minorities are not. Therefore making fun of them is not only lazy but also something that obstructs social progress. Sexist misogynism is still rampant in western society, it must be attacked and countered whenever it rears its head.

Wait...I don't get your point, are you claiming that it's okay to make fun of certain people because their way of life is optional, even if they don't see it as such? Or do you simply prioritize it lower than mockery of minorities? Either way, I think comedy can at times point out a lot of the idiosyncrasies in our culture as well as allow us to look at things that we normally avoid in a lighter frame (not in this case) so if you're claiming that we should outright stop making jokes about minorities at all then I disagree.

And what exactly prevents you from walking out, complaining, starting a petition, organizing a boycott, all of which are probably more effective in the long run than getting yourself mocked and thrown out? I mean, if you're a self-righteous attention whore I can see why you would pick the heckling option but there are ways to deal with outrage without pissing on everyone because you think you're so superior.

It's not pissing on everyone, it's pissing on misogynist scumbags. It's much more effective to counter assholes just as they're doing their asshole thing than later, since it shows them right there that their BS isn't tolerated by everyone.

Finally, let it be known that I'm of the firm opinion that encouraging and perpetuating rape culture is far higher on the scale of douchebaggery than disrupting some third-rate comedian. Therefore preaching to me about the evils of heckling in this situation falls on deaf ears.[/quote]

This seems like good advice. Indeed why should people be comfortable around misogyny ever? The problem is that people can and will always skip past your argument if you are too much of a hassle and when they don't want to have a discussion. The 100 people at the comedy club do not give a shit about a discussion that very moment, standing up,yelling and getting banned does fuck all except make you the bad guy. People are more than willing to simply ignore your argument in favor of their immediate comfort. Getting your friends, starting a stink online and protesting might make someone think twice. In certain contexts, getting up and yelling does little for your cause apart from making you look shrewish. Especially in a comedy club, where the comedians and the fans won't tolerate this and they have the majority of the power.

It's simply ineffective as far as I can see. There are certain contexts, like in a conversation where jumping on Tosh could be effective,but in scenarios where we have a social contract to prevent these sorts of things, doing them doesn't benefit you.

Even look at this case, what brought attention to this? What made Tosh apologize? It wasn't Heckler #232334223443 gets it.

[Metahive]

Yeah, I'm sure that if a woman stands up in a comedy show and acts exactly the way misogynists expect a stereotypical "shrill feminist" to act, that will change a lot of minds.

That's word for word the same thing faitheists say about GNU atheists. "If you don't act all conciliatory towards the religious they'll see all their prejudice about hateful atheists confirmed!". And just like that argument I reject it. Disapproval of unsavory habits has to be up-front and be delivered as strongly as possible to even hope to make an impression. The first thing people need to know is that there's some sort of resistance towards a practice, otherwise they won't even start reflecting about it. That I'm convinced of.

As an example, without the suffragettes, everything would have gone back to status quo ante for women after WWI concerning voting rights and yes, they were seen as "shrill feminists" too.

Humor, in addition to have evolving as a social signal, can also be used to open up conversations, by lowering someone's defenses and making it permissible to discuss taboo subjects.

You might be right, but do you remember Dave Chapelle? When he noticed that his shtick was encouraging racism instead of showing the absurdity of it, he dropped it. This sort of thing requires a skilled comedian, not a hack like Tosh. Simply not everyone is sophisticated enough to be Jonathan Swift making modest proposals. #

I'd also argue that Tosh isn't even trying to aim that high, he's just delivering low-brow guffaws for a low-brow audience.

I laugh at gay jokes. I crack gay jokes. Does that mean I am a homophobe or encouraging it? Hardly. Hell, just today, I made a joke about how I tried to kill my little sister while I was still in the womb, before she was even conceived due to my mom being Rh- and both my sister and I RH+. Does this mean that I find babies born with hemolytic diseases and Jaundice to be a good state of affairs? No.

How do you know you're not encouraging homophobia? I had a gay friend once who liked to make self-deprecatory jokes about his sexual preferences as well. While he was fully accepted within our circle of friends, I did notice that my non-gay friends had no qualms about perpetuating gay stereotypes on their own in other circles. That's when I was first confronted with the concept of human compartmentalization. Heck, I myself made cracks about Germany in Korea but stopped it when I noticed that my korean relatives took them at face value and propagated them elsewhere. This is not something to be brushed off easily.

[Ritterin Sophia]

We should totally make a game where you get to assault her for pointing out the misogynistic nature of rape jokes and how unfunny they are.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah, I'm sure that if a woman stands up in a comedy show and acts exactly the way misogynists expect a stereotypical "shrill feminist" to act, that will change a lot of minds.

That's word for word the same thing faitheists say about GNU atheists. "If you don't act all conciliatory towards the religious they'll see all their prejudice about hateful atheists confirmed!".

And they would have a point, if atheists thought they were being righteous by storming into churches on Sunday and screaming at the pastor. There's a middle-ground between being "conciliatory" and being an asshole.