Daniel Tosh - Offensively unfunny misogynist

[Darth Wong]

We should totally make a game where you get to assault her for pointing out the misogynistic nature of rape jokes and how unfunny they are.

Refrain from such absurd strawman distortions of peoples' arguments in future. No one here has said anything even remotely suggesting that it would actually be OK to assault her, and this kind of snarky bullshit merely lowers the signal-to-noise ratio.

[Academia Nut]

Refrain from such absurd strawman distortions of peoples' arguments in future. No one here has said anything even remotely suggesting that it would actually be OK to assault her, and this kind of snarky bullshit merely lowers the signal-to-noise ratio.

That's unfortunately not a strawman, he's referencing what happened to a female blogger who started up a Kickstarter to raise money to fund a discussion on female representation about video games. Someone made a Flash game where you beat her up.

[Pendleton]

And they would have a point, if atheists thought they were being righteous by storming into churches on Sunday and screaming at the pastor. There's a middle-ground between being "conciliatory" and being an asshole.

Well, I have heard it levelled at Dawkins et al that he is militant in a way that may as well be construed as him going out with a posse and raining on religionist parades. That would be from the people who see any sacred cow status attributed to religion at all, though.

[Pendleton]

That's unfortunately not a strawman, he's referencing what happened to a female blogger who started up a Kickstarter to raise money to fund a discussion on female representation about video games. Someone made a Flash game where you beat her up.

They did? I heard about this on BBC News, Extra Credits and Fat, Ugly Or Slutty. They never mentioned a game, just the tirade of written and verbal abuse online.

[Academia Nut]

Found an article on it:

Internet Trolls Online Beat Up Anita Sarkessian Game

[Darth Wong]

Refrain from such absurd strawman distortions of peoples' arguments in future. No one here has said anything even remotely suggesting that it would actually be OK to assault her, and this kind of snarky bullshit merely lowers the signal-to-noise ratio.

That's unfortunately not a strawman, he's referencing what happened to a female blogger who started up a Kickstarter to raise money to fund a discussion on female representation about video games. Someone made a Flash game where you beat her up.

Except that no one here is saying that this kind of abuse directed at the blogger was a good thing.

[Darth Wong]

And they would have a point, if atheists thought they were being righteous by storming into churches on Sunday and screaming at the pastor. There's a middle-ground between being "conciliatory" and being an asshole.

Well, I have heard it levelled at Dawkins et al that he is militant in a way that may as well be construed as him going out with a posse and raining on religionist parades. That would be from the people who see any sacred cow status attributed to religion at all, though.

Of course they think he's militant. But he isn't marching into churches and heckling the pastor, is he? I'm comparing him to this situation, because metahive thinks the two situations are identical.

[Metahive]

I bet that woman did not go into the show with the express purpose to yell at the performer, so I don't see that as an equivalent situation. Remember that pastor a few months ago who preached from the pulpit that he'd like to herd all homosexuals into ghettos and starve them to death? If someone from the congregation had stood up then and there and told the pastor that he was a hateful twit, that would be an equivalent. And know what, I'd applaud that person too.

I'm not saying that they didn't laugh at the rape joke before, I'm saying that they laughed at Tosh's response regardless of whether it was funny or not simply because it was a heckler. And "on the floor LOLing"? Really? Did I miss something in the article or are you overstating?

Does heckling mean you deserve to be gang-raped? Otherwise how could that be in any way found to be funny unless you're a low-brow troglodyte who's part of the problem?

Wait...I don't get your point, are you claiming that it's okay to make fun of certain people because their way of life is optional, even if they don't see it as such?

Yes. If you're a grown person and mormon, vegetarian, buddhist or what not you have no one to blame for that particular "predicament" but yourself. That's part of being an adult after all. That's why such people offer a more ready target for mockery than people who can't help it. I'm not arguing that lifestyle targets are always justified, just that they rank higher on the totem pole than racial or gender minority targets.

Or do you simply prioritize it lower than mockery of minorities? Either way, I think comedy can at times point out a lot of the idiosyncrasies in our culture as well as allow us to look at things that we normally avoid in a lighter frame (not in this case) so if you're claiming that we should outright stop making jokes about minorities at all then I disagree.

So you agree that humor that kicks downwards does normalize an undesirable situation? Why should racism and misogyny be made light of considering the serious effects they still have on western society? Sorry, but here we have to fundamentally disagree. If you make light of something you make it more acceptable.

Take Islam for example. While I will readily attack the tents of that faith that I find irrational and delusional, I will not agree with every two-cent demagogue who considers them to be a cheap target to release social tension on.

This seems like good advice. Indeed why should people be comfortable around misogyny ever? The problem is that people can and will always skip past your argument if you are too much of a hassle and when they don't want to have a discussion. The 100 people at the comedy club do not give a shit about a discussion that very moment, standing up,yelling and getting banned does fuck all except make you the bad guy. People are more than willing to simply ignore your argument in favor of their immediate comfort. Getting your friends, starting a stink online and protesting might make someone think twice. In certain contexts, getting up and yelling does little for your cause apart from making you look shrewish. Especially in a comedy club, where the comedians and the fans won't tolerate this and they have the majority of the power.

See my reply to Darth Wong. I say that confrontation leaves a much deeper impression than accomodation. If no one had ever stepped on someone's toes in regards to racism, blacks would still travel on the back of the bus today.

It's simply ineffective as far as I can see. There are certain contexts, like in a conversation where jumping on Tosh could be effective,but in scenarios where we have a social contract to prevent these sorts of things, doing them doesn't benefit you.

If you hold some conviction dearly and deeply, direct attacks on them are more likely to make you reflect about them. Think about it, when are you more likely to think about your convictions, when they're left alone or when they're boldly challenged? Say you're die-hard theist. What will motivate you to find evidence for God's existence more if not direct and unabashed claims that he doesn't exist?

[Darth Wong]

I bet that woman did not go into the show with the express purpose to yell at the performer, so I don't see that as an equivalent situation. Remember that pastor a few months ago who preached from the pulpit that he'd like to herd all homosexuals into ghettos and starve them to death? If someone from the congregation had stood up then and there and told the pastor that he was a hateful twit, that would be an equivalent. And know what, I'd applaud that person too.

Anyone who goes into a comedy show unaware that he might hear something offensive is not too smart. If I go into a comedy show, I know there's a pretty good chance that I will hear some idiot racist joke, perhaps even directed at my particular ethnicity. If it really offends me, I might get up and leave. I'm not going to try to turn the event into a hearing.

I can understand your point if it's some totally unexpected offensive tirade, but look at the venue. Also, I don't know why everyone is so quick to believe that she actually has perfect word-for-word recollection of how it went down. In emotionally charged situations, you tend to remember how it made you feel, more than the precise events that took place.

[Meest]

I bet that woman did not go into the show with the express purpose to yell at the performer, so I don't see that as an equivalent situation. Remember that pastor a few months ago who preached from the pulpit that he'd like to herd all homosexuals into ghettos and starve them to death? If someone from the congregation had stood up then and there and told the pastor that he was a hateful twit, that would be an equivalent. And know what, I'd applaud that person too.

The blog shows that the only performer she knew on the card was Dane Cook and knows that he can be on the fence for her tastes. She went to have a good time like everyone else going but then says she couldn't sit there and had to defend all of womankind. Of all the places to take a stand why there, if anything Tosh.0 shows that college aged people (who are the majority demo for him) like to light their crotches on fire and film it. Don't think her protest did anything other than potentially boost his viewership, like Darth Wong said she just perpetuated the stereotype and could justify their laughter for them.

I'll bring up the gender card again, the current fad in comedy is vulgar female comedy, don't hear much outrage about that, it's the same crap just from the opposite view. The most popular new show was Two Broke Girls where their male co-workers constantly sexually harass them. They also make rape and horse sex jokes, but hey if girls say it it's fine because their threats to rape or counter rape anyone isn't serious. Sarah Silverman, Whitney Cummings, the SNL ladies behind Bridesmaids etc get praise when they are just matching male vulgarity. To me that's more dangerous because those shows are rated tv-14, where a comedy club might have 18+ limits. The place Tosh performed says 18+ unless otherwise notified.

[Metahive]

Anyone who goes into a comedy show unaware that he might hear something offensive is not too smart. If I go into a comedy show, I know there's a pretty good chance that I will hear some idiot racist joke, perhaps even directed at my particular ethnicity. If it really offends me, I might get up and leave. I'm not going to try to turn the event into a hearing.

I think we are simply in fundamental disagreement here. I already laid out that I find comedians who beat down on the power gradient to be unacceptable since they do nothing but perpetuate an undesirable social situation. If here in Germany a comedian suddenly started making vulgar racist jokes on stage, there'd be some immediate calling out and you could be sure that comedian would feature on most newspapers the next day. Maybe the German attitude towards these things is just radically different from that of the anglo-saxon-sphere.

That's not to say that Germany does not have any problems with subconscious racism and sexism though. It's just dealt with differently.

I can understand your point if it's some totally unexpected offensive tirade, but look at the venue. Also, I don't know why everyone is so quick to believe that she actually has perfect word-for-word recollection of how it went down. In emotionally charged situations, you tend to remember how it made you feel, more than the precise events that took place.

I think Tosh's supposed apology already damns himself. I mean ”The point I was making before I was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them"
Why the fuck make jokes about rape? What's that going to achieve? If his shtick had been all about portraying rapists as pathetic wusses who can only get what they desire by violence, OK, but somehow I don't think that's the direction he was going in, not when you take in account his thinly-veiled rape-threat to the heckler.

Don't think her protest did anything other than potentially boost his viewership, like Darth Wong said she just perpetuated the stereotype and could justify their laughter for them.

It also perpetuates the stereotype of the boorish, misogynist fratboy troglodyte. You might lose some for the former, but you'll also gain some for the latter. I'd argue that losing people who think that rape-threats are something funny is not a big loss.

I'll bring up the gender card again, the current fad in comedy is vulgar female comedy, don't hear much outrage about that, it's the same crap just from the opposite view. The most popular new show was Two Broke Girls where their male co-workers constantly sexually harass them. They also make rape and horse sex jokes, but hey if girls say it it's fine because their threats to rape or counter rape anyone isn't serious. Sarah Silverman, Whitney Cummings, the SNL ladies behind Bridesmaids etc get praise when they are just matching male vulgarity. To me that's more dangerous because those shows are rated tv-14, where a comedy club might have 18+ limits. The place Tosh performed says 18+ unless otherwise notified.

Does the fact that Mao supposedly killed 70 million people mean that anyone with a bodycount below that isn't worth discussing? No. Neither does the fact that Sarah Silverman and co. are supposedly bigger douchebags let Tosh off the hook.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think Tosh is damned more for actively encouraging people on his show to sneak up on women sitting down and grab them in a way to make them feel fat and video tape it, then post the result to YouTube. Which a bunch of assholes went out and did.

I'm in the fuck that guy camp, I guess.

[Blayne]

I already laid out that I find comedians who beat down on the power gradient to be unacceptable since they do nothing but perpetuate an undesirable social situation.

I asked you about this, under what circumstances has this ever been the standard among contemporary comedians? In North America these kinds of jokes have a *long* history, just see the George Carlin clip I posted.

[Torchship]

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

Do you have a study to support this claim? I followed the link to the source, but they just state this without support. Not that I doubt the basic concept of rapists being somewhat encouraged by the popularity of rape jokes, but their use of terms like "virtually all" strikes me as hyperbolic nonsense.

[Darth Wong]

I think we are simply in fundamental disagreement here. I already laid out that I find comedians who beat down on the power gradient to be unacceptable since they do nothing but perpetuate an undesirable social situation. If here in Germany a comedian suddenly started making vulgar racist jokes on stage, there'd be some immediate calling out and you could be sure that comedian would feature on most newspapers the next day. Maybe the German attitude towards these things is just radically different from that of the anglo-saxon-sphere.

Given that the event in question took place in America, not Germany, perhaps you should recognize that the expectations when walking into the venue should be different then.

I think Tosh's supposed apology already damns himself. I mean ”The point I was making before I was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them"
Why the fuck make jokes about rape? What's that going to achieve? If his shtick had been all about portraying rapists as pathetic wusses who can only get what they desire by violence, OK, but somehow I don't think that's the direction he was going in, not when you take in account his thinly-veiled rape-threat to the heckler.

Without a recording of the performance it's hard to tell, but that's beside the point: you can't categorically declare that an entire subject area is off-limits.

[Terralthra]

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

Do you have a study to support this claim? I followed the link to the source, but they just state this without support. Not that I doubt the basic concept of rapists being somewhat encouraged by the popularity of rape jokes, but their use of terms like "virtually all" strikes me as hyperbolic nonsense.

Virtually all may be an overstatement, but the point does stand. Do you have access to a University Library that subscribes to various research databases? If so, some reading to get you going:


Rapaport, K. & Burkhart, B. (1984). Personality and attitudinal characteristics of sexually coercive college males. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 93, 216-221.

Koss, M.P., Leonard, K.E., Beezley, D.A., & Oros, C.J. (1985). Nonstranger sexual aggression: A discriminant analysis of the psychological characteristics of undetected offenders. Sex Roles, 12, 981-992.

Lisak, D. & Roth, S. (1988). Motivational factors in nonincarcerated sexually aggressive men. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 55, 795-802.

Rubenzahl, S.A. & Corcoran, K.J. (1998). The prevalence and characteristics of male perpetrators of acquaintance rape. Violence Against Women, 4, 713-725.

While the questionnaires in question vary, what they all tend to find is that if you take a sample of a bunch of men and ask them if they've ever raped someone, by using questions like "Have you ever restrained a woman physically to obtain sex?" or "Have you ever obtained sexual activities with the threat of force?" without ever mentioning the word "rape," some 5%-25% (depending on how you ask and the sample in question), will say "yes."

The researchers also asked a bunch of questions correlated with "normalcy of rape" attitudes. Questions like "What percentage of men would rape if they were sure they could get away with it?" and "T/F: A woman who goes home with a guy after a date has implicitly consented to sex?" They find that with a very very low p-value, men who report that they have coerced sexual activity tend to answer questions like those with answers indicating that they believe all men would coerce sex, and that, more globally, men who admit to coercive sex tend to believe that male/female relationships are inherently exploitative: that men who don't manipulate and coerce sex (extremely high correlation to their answer to the question "T/F: All men only want one thing.") are destined to "lose" at relationships.

[Simon_Jester]

Without a recording of the performance it's hard to tell, but that's beside the point: you can't categorically declare that an entire subject area is off-limits.

Hm. Is that an absolute statement? Could you imagine any circumstances at all where society could declare that a subject area is off-limits? Somewhere where the consequences of talking about it really are worse than those of not talking about it?

[Magis]

Without a recording of the performance it's hard to tell, but that's beside the point: you can't categorically declare that an entire subject area is off-limits.

Hm. Is that an absolute statement? Could you imagine any circumstances at all where society could declare that a subject area is off-limits? Somewhere where the consequences of talking about it really are worse than those of not talking about it?

I for one cannot imagine such a circumstance. Christopher Hitchens gave speech at the University of Toronto on the topic of free speech which was probably the very best speech of his career. The full video is on youtube, and from my perspective his arguments are absolutely convincing.

The youtube link is here. There is a short (40 second or so) intro by some TV host before Hitchens' speech actually begins.

[Max]

Tosh is really hit or miss with me. A robot can perform his material and I wouldn't know the difference. With that said I'd like to think that people are smart enough, that if they go to a show without knowing the act, they would ask the person in the box office/someone familiar with the show about the show and the material. Anyone who's ever seen or heard Tosh will tell you he's a) offensive towards everything, and b) seriously, he's fucking offensive. Race, mentally handicapped, women, children, rape, pedophilia... the guy has no boundaries. So I have little sympathy for this woman. Funny is subjective, and really is a moot point to hammer on when this woman wasn't being held there against her will. She decided to heckle him instead of simply leaving and getting a refund (or whatever). Heckling is disruptive and 99% of the time ineffective. To my, albeit anecdotal, experience.. not only will the comedian add you to his comedy (whether it's "funny" or not), but the people who paid to see the show are going to absolutely not be sympathetic towards you.



I wish we had more context of the joke and the routine instead of someone's disgruntled interpretation of what happened. I know when I get "viscerally terrified and threatened" I tend to have a less than acccurate recolection and may exaggerate a point or miss important detail.


And I personally take issue with calling people who enjoy his comedy "neanderthals". Just because people don't conform to your particular brand of humor doesn't mean they are fucking cave men dragging their knuckles across the ground. Get off your fucking holier than thou horse.

[General Zod]

And I personally take issue with calling people who enjoy his comedy "neanderthals". Just because people don't conform to your particular brand of humor doesn't mean they are fucking cave men dragging their knuckles across the ground. Get off your fucking holier than thou horse.

What, you can't take a joke?

[TheFeniX]

I think Tosh is damned more for actively encouraging people on his show to sneak up on women sitting down and grab them in a way to make them feel fat and video tape it, then post the result to YouTube. Which a bunch of assholes went out and did.

He also had some bit about slapping guys in the face then hitting them in the nuts. It was called "bitchslap, nutshot" or something stupid. Tosh spends about as much time bagging on middle-class white guys as anything else. I personally think he should have a bit called "Jump off a cliff and record it" and let the problem work itself out.

While the questionnaires in question vary, what they all tend to find is that if you take a sample of a bunch of men and ask them if they've ever raped someone, by using questions like "Have you ever restrained a woman physically to obtain sex?" or "Have you ever obtained sexual activities with the threat of force?" without ever mentioning the word "rape," some 5%-25% (depending on how you ask and the sample in question), will say "yes."

There were 85,000 reports of forcible rape in America in 2010. Even assuming they were all committed by men against women, with ~150,000,000 males in this country, about 0.05% of American males are raping women. So, either rape reporting is beyond abysmal in this country and (at a minimum) 750,000+ women are being raped every year (or 37 million if you take the 25% figure) and that many rapists are walking the streets, or it's more likely the study is flawed because even I've made a comment that would label me a rapist: "Woman, get back in bed right now before I drag you back" in response to her saying "we need to get up and get ready to leave."

This kind of reminds me of the idea that men get laid on average 3-4 times more than women. Which, unless there are massive gay orgies (which the interviews specifically don't count) or the women outnumber men 9 to 1, it isn't possible.

[Max]

And I personally take issue with calling people who enjoy his comedy "neanderthals". Just because people don't conform to your particular brand of humor doesn't mean they are fucking cave men dragging their knuckles across the ground. Get off your fucking holier than thou horse.

What, you can't take a joke?

Oh, my bad. I forgot to take into account that any comments on the SD.net news and politics threads which generalize a groups of people are, in reality, stand-up comedy. Just like at the Laugh Factory.

For a second there I assumed the last 5 pages have been seriously debating the OP. I'm glad you pointed out, in a completely non-passive aggressive way, the error in me assuming things irrationally. Thank you.

[Darth Wong]

And I personally take issue with calling people who enjoy his comedy "neanderthals". Just because people don't conform to your particular brand of humor doesn't mean they are fucking cave men dragging their knuckles across the ground. Get off your fucking holier than thou horse.

What, you can't take a joke?

Enough with the snarky comments. It was not being presented as a joke; it was being presented as a serious argument. You are just being smarmy, as a substitute for making an actual argument. If you can't make legitimate arguments, and your idea of a contribution (or worse yet, rebuttal) is to snipe at people with smarmy remarks instead, then just shut the fuck up.

[Terralthra]

While the questionnaires in question vary, what they all tend to find is that if you take a sample of a bunch of men and ask them if they've ever raped someone, by using questions like "Have you ever restrained a woman physically to obtain sex?" or "Have you ever obtained sexual activities with the threat of force?" without ever mentioning the word "rape," some 5%-25% (depending on how you ask and the sample in question), will say "yes."

There were 85,000 reports of forcible rape in America in 2010. Even assuming they were all committed by men against women, with ~150,000,000 males in this country, about 0.05% of American males are raping women. So, either rape reporting is beyond abysmal in this country and (at a minimum) 750,000+ women are being raped every year (or 37 million if you take the 25% figure) and that many rapists are walking the streets, or it's more likely the study is flawed because even I've made a comment that would label me a rapist: "Woman, get back in bed right now before I drag you back" in response to her saying "we need to get up and get ready to leave."

Rape reporting is abysmal. Studies show that women report rape to the authorities 31% of the time, with attempted rape and sexual assault even lower. The Criminal Victimization report listed 260,940 rapes, attempted rapes, and sexual assaults. Research indicates that even these statistics are woefully understated, as many women, when asked, describe an incident that meets the legal definition of rape, but don't recognize it as such themselves. Studies on undetected (nonreported) rapists show that on average, these undetected offenders are responsible for nearly 6 rapes each. This supports research showing 1 in 4 women of college age describe scenarios in which they've been raped or had rape attempted, while 1 in 12 men describe scenarios in which they have raped or attempted rape.

Also, I don't think you understand the studies. These questions aren't asked of women, they're asked of men. If you were asked "Have you ever used threats of physical violence to have sex with a woman against her will?" would you answer "Yes" because of that comment? Because these men do.

[General Zod]

Oh, my bad. I forgot to take into account that any comments on the SD.net news and politics threads which generalize a groups of people are, in reality, stand-up comedy. Just like at the Laugh Factory.

For a second there I assumed the last 5 pages have been seriously debating the OP. I'm glad you pointed out, in a completely non-passive aggressive way, the error in me assuming things irrationally. Thank you.

I just think it's kind of funny that someone who likes Tosh's sense of humor would get offended at being called a knuckle dragging neanderthal. Insulting rape victims on a stage is fine but insulting tosh fans anywhere else isn't? How do you rationalize that sort of dichotomy?