Morons in need of Imerial-Level Smack-Down

[Batman]

I think this is the first time I've seen a double double post

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think this is the first time I've seen a double double post

This is indeed a disturbing universe

Either we've got a troll or a real live trektard. Either way it'll be funny as hell to watch him burn.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Crap, I could have sworn I clicked the edit button

EDIT: Going by the times on the posts, it must be a glitch. And coming out in favour of Trek in a thread titled "Imperial level smackdown", that's got troll written all over it

[Batman]

Apparently you and the hamster both (or the board hickuped again, wouldn't be the first time either).

[the atom]

The most amazing aspect of this topic is how the supporters of Star Wars consistently believe that the Imperial space ships would stand a chance against the far superior Federation technology.

I'll assume 'superior' in this case is some interesting variation of shiny and/or sleek?

[Daefaron]

The most amazing aspect of this topic is how the supporters of Star Wars consistently believe that the Imperial space ships would stand a chance against the far superior Federation technology.

I'll assume 'superior' in this case is some interesting variation of shiny and/or sleek?

And easier to break. How many times do we see a single hit strike the shields and they go "Shields at 80%!"

Also, the fact their inertial dampeners don't work at all and a single torpedo to the ass-end of the ship will send the bridge crew stumbling. And hits that would cause minor damage at best (if the ship was made right) cause consoles to explode randomly, in different areas of the ship.

Oh, and the fact their 'failsafes' hardly, if ever, work.

[Batman]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

[PeZook]

So, the fact Trek ships can be fucked up by single hits (no yields, no numbers of course...) is evidence of shitty technology now?

Man, you gotta inform every single navy in the world that they're not building their ships right!

[Daefaron]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

Lose main power, all prisoners escape.

So, the fact Trek ships can be fucked up by single hits (no yields, no numbers of course...) is evidence of shitty technology now?

Man, you gotta inform every single navy in the world that they're not building their ships right!

No, but for 'vastly superior' tech.. it's amazing the galaxy class cruiser can be so easily damaged, considering at TNG times it was the best ship the Federation had.

And you know, warp core ejection never working on it.

Meanwhile in Star Wars... I believe it was said somewhere that an ISD is built to take (IIRC) 30+ minutes of bombardment... from another ISD running all power to weapons. I'll have to ask my friend about it again though.

Also, I wasn't saying "A single hit fucks them up beyond repair." I was commenting on the fact they can take a single hit... and lose primary weapon control/ability to fire at all. A single hit to the other end of the ship will cause the bridge crew to stumble (Though the same tech that prevents them from becoming splats on the wall when going to warp would cause them to not feel anything in that case as well, unless the torpedo strike was close to the bridge). Or you know, hits that cause consoles to randomly explode(which may not even be tied into the system affected).

Meanwhile... have we ever seen a star wars ship randomly have a console explode for no reason during battle? (Meaning, it was were the strike was/directly tied to that system.) Have we seen a minor hit send crew stumbling? (Death star scene, IIRC, those hallways were near the area the x-wings were actually attacking.)

[EnterpriseSovereign]

And you know, warp core ejection never working on it

Contrast this to Voyager, which could eject the warp core at the drop of a hat

As for the intertial dampeners, the only thing that I can think of that might explain why they do fuck all against weapon impacts vs warp travel is that maybe they only work properly when the main computer knows in advance when they need to work. But then, when the ship goes to Red Alert the computer can reasonably expect impacts and prepare the IDs accordingly. Or perhaps they actually do work, but can only absorb a portion of the impact.

Case in point for one hit crippling weapons was in "Deadlock", where the Vidiians claimed to have destroyed Voyager's weapons array with one hit

[Daefaron]

Yeah. I heard that same line before too. "Oh, but the dampener system doesn't know exactly where the impact will be and how much force it'll have, hence the tossed around." I mean, if the whole point of the system is to make the crew feel as if the ship isn't moving at all (while it is at varying speeds and direction)... then how come it doesn't do anything in the face of weapons fire to the shields or hull?

And follow it/prelude it with talking about how super advanced the sensors are. So starfleet has super advanced sensors that can tell you the conditions of a crew underground on a planet, but can't predict the torpedo will hit deck 5, section 27b?

Lol, and apparently at random times main engineering on a Galaxy class is abandoned. I mean, in the one where Troi was in command and the entire ship disabled... Not a soul was in main engineering. Riker and Data barely arrived in time when... shouldn't there have been the engineering staff there trying their best to restore power? Power generators to lug in and activate the consoles?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The Duras Sisters were onto something when they said that Geordi must be the only engineer that doesn't go to engineering.

If Federation ships' sensors could actually predict where a projectile would hit, they might actually have half a chance of taking it out, since at such ranges beam weapons are insta-hit. IIRC, the only example of point defense was in STXI- Contrast with The Wrath of Khan, when they saw the torpedo coming but they couldn't lock on phasers fast enough

[Scottish Ninja]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

Lose main power, all prisoners escape.

Lose main power, all prisoners aren't condemned to die trapped in their cells. Given the Federation's cultural attitudes, I think this is along the lines of "feature, not a bug".

[Daefaron]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

Lose main power, all prisoners escape.

Lose main power, all prisoners aren't condemned to die trapped in their cells. Given the Federation's cultural attitudes, I think this is along the lines of "feature, not a bug".

And I counter with. "Lose main power, now those super dangerous, insane criminals are let loose on the ship that were supposed to stay in cells until arriving at a prison."

Which in either case, is bad. Case A: random event knocked power out. They escape and can wreck havoc/take over ship. Maybe even steal shuttlecraft.
Case B: Middle of battle. Even worse cause it could be friends of the criminals attacking, or an unrelated third party. Either way, they can escape and sabotage the ship/damage things from the inside to make the attackers have an easier time.

The Duras Sisters were onto something when they said that Geordi must be the only engineer that doesn't go to engineering.

If Federation ships' sensors could actually predict where a projectile would hit, they might actually have half a chance of taking it out, since at such ranges beam weapons are insta-hit. IIRC, the only example of point defense was in STXI- Contrast with The Wrath of Khan, when they saw the torpedo coming but they couldn't lock on phasers fast enough

Yeah, even then the Kelvin turrets are apparently torpedos themselves. Either way... how many times did they just sit there going "Derp look at the shiny.... ohcrap boom!" in the shows/movies .

Did they actually try to lock phasers on the torpedo? or was it the Ship itself? I'm forgetting the scene .

[Batman]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

Lose main power, all prisoners escape.

Sort of my point except they'd need to lose all power for this to be inevitable but yeah, stupid idea. Door=good. Door+forcefield=better. Just the forcefield=bad.
As for the inertial dampers not compensating for weapon impacts, that's not their job, they're there to compensate for STL acelleration (I have no idea why people think they're needed for the jump to Warp, that's by definition a non-Newtonian maneuvre). It's not the dampers' fault that apparently sometime between now and the 24th century somebody disinvented the seatbelt.
I find it much more bothersome that the ship is shaking to begin with, especially given the (often negligible) yield of the weapons making it shake. Apparently, mass lightening is a lot more efficient than people give it credit for

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The issue of prisoners, this reminds me of the destruction of the Valiant, when the ship was totally shot up yet the forcefield in the brig was still up, albeit fluctuating- lucky for Jake that Nog got him out

Link

As for the scene in TWOK- they put the Reliant on screen just in time to see it fire a photon torpedo.

Kirk: "Sulu, divert all power to phasers"
Spock: "Too late"
Kirk: "Hang on!"

I couldn't find an original clip, this is as close as it gets to point defense.

Looking at that, I'm strongly reminded of the scene in ROTJ when the Executor loses bridge shields

[Daefaron]

Valiant... starfleet's finest cadets... who are also utterly stupid.

I mean, Jake was totally so much a threat, they had to lock him up. Likewise, they decided they were too macho to follow their orders of returning the information... So they charged, failed, got everybody killed (bar 3), and lost the data. Also... in the first charge they go "Get us close so they can't lock on!" After the first pass (which, tactically, SHOULD have been the one to hit the braces), they zoom so far out, on the return pass... they get hit a good number of times.

Go red squadron. Kinda looked like the force-field was losing power/damaged, based on the flickering. I personally would've just tossed him in quarters with a guard outside. Easier. Even then, kinda proves my examples about consoles exploding. A hit to the aft sections of the ship cause the bridge consoles to explode and kill the person at the station?

[Batman]

The 'fundamental interconnectedness of all things' approach to engineering at work. Throughout TNG it's painfully obvious that you can essentially access vital bridge functions from anywhere on the ship, it seems only fair that a hit anywhere on the ship should blow up bridge consoles

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Valiant... starfleet's finest cadets... who are also utterly stupid.

I mean, Jake was totally so much a threat, they had to lock him up. Likewise, they decided they were too macho to follow their orders of returning the information... So they charged, failed, got everybody killed (bar 3), and lost the data. Also... in the first charge they go "Get us close so they can't lock on!" After the first pass (which, tactically, SHOULD have been the one to hit the braces), they zoom so far out, on the return pass... they get hit a good number of times.

Go red squadron. Kinda looked like the force-field was losing power/damaged, based on the flickering. I personally would've just tossed him in quarters with a guard outside. Easier. Even then, kinda proves my examples about consoles exploding. A hit to the aft sections of the ship cause the bridge consoles to explode and kill the person at the station?

That's what I was driving at when I commented on that vid, proof if proof were needed was that though they did get hit on the final pass it was manageable since those hits did nothing more than shake up the ship, versus explosions on the bridge from the first hits. Of course, it might be explained in part that the Defiant-class is much smaller, so any hits would be naturally closer to the bridge. Either those plasma conduits are dangerously unstable, or consoles double as fireworks storage lockers.

Had Sisko been at the helm though, they might have had a chance

[CarsonPalmer]

Wars prison cell-door. TNG prison cell-force field. Nuff said.

Lose main power, all prisoners escape.

Lose main power, all prisoners aren't condemned to die trapped in their cells. Given the Federation's cultural attitudes, I think this is along the lines of "feature, not a bug".

You can open a door without power.

[Scottish Ninja]

It depends on how it's built. I think you're missing the point, though, which is the respective design philosophy for failure modes. On the Death Star, what happens if the power goes out? Is Leia supposed to be able to get out of her cell? I don't think that door's opening from the inside and certainly not without power. If there's then an evacuation of the Death Star, who is going to try and force that door open (and it opens upward too IIRC, for bonus difficulty) so that she can get to an escape pod? I suspect the answer is no one.

In contrast, I don't think most of the cells used by the Federation are really intended to be all that secure. "Super dangerous, insane criminals" is probably not what Starfleet typically expects to deal with, and so a starship's brig is not exactly a maximum-security prison. The forcefield then is totally logical; it allows someone to speak to someone on the other side without having to lower it (yes, bars can accomplish the same thing) and the failure mode is such that if evacuation of that section is necessary due to a power failure that no one gets trapped in there. That seems to me to be a valid humane concern.

[Batman]

Um-no? If your concern is prisoner evacuation in case of an emergency, all you need to do is use a door that can be opened by hand (something that happens all the time in Star Trek by the way). Non-catastrophic localized power failure? Force field-prisoners on the loose. Door-prisoners still in cells. Power failure necessitating evacuation? Force fields-prisoners are on the loose doing Valen alone knows what. Doors-prisoners are evacuated in an orderly fashion by security personell.

[fordlltwm]

The brig on the Enterprise A was supposed to be impossible to break out of wasn't it?

Spock mentioned something about testing it and failing to get out.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The brig on the Enterprise A was supposed to be impossible to break out of wasn't it?

Spock mentioned something about testing it and failing to get out.

Scotty proved it was not impossible to break into

[Daefaron]

Yes... because we all know if Spock can't get out of something, nobody else can.