10 dead, 35+ wounded at Batman premiere shooting

[Alyrium Denryle]

[quote="<a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">General</a> Zod"]Maybe we should wait until an actual psychiatrist can diagnose this guy before making all sorts of grand proclomations about the state of his mental health? Just an idea.[/quote]

For fuck's sake Zod, we are speculating. Dont be such a kill-joy. We can take bets if you prefer.

The level of intricacy of his planning of the attack probably rules out an insanity defense even if he is schizophrenic.

Noooo. That is not how that shit works. The legal standard for an insanity defense is that you did not know at the time that what you were doing is wrong. This can take the form of a complete psychotic break, OR elaborate delusions.

You have to remember, schizophrenia is not just hallucinations. You dont hear the voices telling you they are angels and you have to do what they say. You hear those things yes, but the rationality check is also short-circuited. Even if when medicated you know they are not real, you dont know they are not real when off meds, or when the meds become ineffective--which they often do when you are stressed, take cocaine or other dopamine agonists (which will instantly cause an "episode" even in medicated schizophrenics), or when your body simply compensates for the presence of the meds and returns to its default crazy state.

One can engage in some pretty well-thought-out plans under those conditions.

[JME2]

Keep in mind that being insane does not mean he goes free.

Fair enough.

[Luke Skywalker]

Noooo. That is not how that shit works. The legal standard for an insanity defense is that you did not know at the time that what you were doing is wrong. This can take the form of a complete psychotic break, OR elaborate delusions.

How does this imply he did not know right from wrong? If he, as an asinine and sleep-deprived example, was offered a hundred million dollars in cash by an imaginary voice in his head if he were to commit a mass shooting spree, he's still an evil fucker for his crimes. The only possible manner in which moral compass would be, IMO, clinically disabled would be if he was literally sociopathic, or had the delusion that he was in WW2 and the audience members were nazis, or whatever.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I saw academic pressure cause a person to snap once. When I was in college there was a grad student who was under a lot of pressure from her faculty advisor. One day some student said something that just set her off in a lab and she clobbered him with a 6 pound fossil before running into the atrium and jumping off the balcony onto a sample case. She was restrained by security and taken away, and never came back.

[Darth Wong]

When people snap like this, people always look into his religious beliefs or academic and job issues. No one ever puts the spotlight on the obvious: no girlfriend.

Easy women. They could save America.

[Enigma]

Just a note on metal detectors in movie theaters; According to the Aurora police, the gunman propped open a rear door and came in through an exit which was supposed to be only opened from the inside.

I read that too. You would think someone would have seem that and gotten suspicious.

Propped the door open can be mean a lot of things, including just slipping a credit card over the latch as you close it so that the latch is jammed closed and the door can thus be pried open from the outside even though it doesn't have an outside handle (claw hammer under the bottom of the door or something similar).

Door alarms could have prevented him from entering from the emergency exits, or any exit that isn't the main entrance. Maybe the sound of the alarm blaring could've scared him off.

[weemadando]

They'd be silent alarms because the 99.999999999% of the time that they're used for idiots sneaking in or whatever, you don't want to have everyone else in the cinema complaining about the noise and demanding refunds etc.

[Simon_Jester]

Noooo. That is not how that shit works. The legal standard for an insanity defense is that you did not know at the time that what you were doing is wrong. This can take the form of a complete psychotic break, OR elaborate delusions.

How does this imply he did not know right from wrong? If he, as an asinine and sleep-deprived example, was offered a hundred million dollars in cash by an imaginary voice in his head if he were to commit a mass shooting spree, he's still an evil fucker for his crimes. The only possible manner in which moral compass would be, IMO, clinically disabled would be if he was literally sociopathic, or had the delusion that he was in WW2 and the audience members were nazis, or whatever.

The voice in your head could be telling you "People who watch Batman movies are evil pod people. Kill them all to save humanity!" If the inner scale that weighs the plausibility of these things is missing... how would you resist that?

People with heavy-duty paranoid or schizophrenic delusions can actually believe stuff that ridiculous, so much so that in their own mind they're doing a totally righteous and reasonable thing by hurting or killing people. Just as you'd think you were in the right if you decided to go try and get rid of someone you knew was an evil Martian spy out to blow up the Earth.

When people snap like this, people always look into his religious beliefs or academic and job issues. No one ever puts the spotlight on the obvious: no girlfriend.

Easy women. They could save America.

I like it. But I have no sense of humor, as everyone knows, so...

Does having no girlfriend make them insane? Or does being insane make it impossible for them to get a date?

Everything I've heard about Jared Lee Loughner, for example, makes me think it would be impossible for him to hold a relationship together for long. No woman, no matter how easy, would want that kind of crazy.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If the entrance I think he went through was like others I've seen, its simply a door to the side of the screen in the theater that allows people to exit the building directly from the theater. They aren't emergency exits, and they don't have alarms. According to one account, the attacker actually KNOCKED and was let in by someone who I would guess assumed it was a person trying to sneak in.

[Alyrium Denryle]

How does this imply he did not know right from wrong? If he, as an asinine and sleep-deprived example, was offered a hundred million dollars in cash by an imaginary voice in his head if he were to commit a mass shooting spree, he's still an evil fucker for his crimes. The only possible manner in which moral compass would be, IMO, clinically disabled would be if he was literally sociopathic, or had the delusion that he was in WW2 and the audience members were nazis, or whatever.

*sigh* this is why no one ever plays Malkavians right in V:TM....

Schizophrenia creates some really odd disconnects with reality. The capacity for rational thought connected to reality can go out the window (they can be extremely rational in the context of their delusion though). Perception of the entire world and everything a person perceives can be skewed. A Schizophrenic can for example believe--really believe--that that voice is a voice from God, telling them to do things. They can also believe that the people in the theater are out to get them, or imagine scenarios--they they believe to be true--so wacky that no one who is not schizophrenic can come up with them. They can get amazingly... Meta, as well. I once observed a Schizophrenic women on a bus who was having a conversation with an imaginary person about the imaginary demon that was following her around and harassing her. When she exited the bus, she turned on this imaginary person and screamed "YOU DONT UNDERTSTAND! YOU JUST DONT UNDERTSTAND!" And ran off.

Their ability to differentiate fantasy from reality can be so bad that while they may know murder is wrong, they have no way of determining whether what they are doing is murder, or a justified killing, or whether they are killing Demons or Vampire Badgers or whatever it is inside their delusion they feel they need to kill. Thankfully, most schizophrenics are not harmful to others. Often just themselves... but sometimes....

[CaptainChewbacca]

Just a note, I went to the local movie theater today to buy tickets for an afternoon showing tomorrow, and there was an armed security guard in front of the building.

[eion]

Theater doors here are exactly as Chewie described. They aren't alarmed because the theater owners actually encourage you to use them so you can get in your car and go quickly and not crowd up their hallways and dirty their restrooms after they've already got your money.

Methinks that all might change though. If the doors were alarmed and used only in emergencies, or only opened at the end of a showing, or something, it would not only hopefully prevent another massacre like this, but also perhaps cut down on people trying to sneak in that way.

And hopefully there was another group of armed security patroling the back doors too.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I doubt it there were people patrolling the perimeter of the building, 1 security guard doesn't provide effective protection, it merely serves as a deterrent and to make people feel safe.

[Mr Bean]

Having personal experience with a paranoid schizophrenic I can back up Alyrium Denryle is saying about schizophrenics and how their condition can impact their lives.
My personal experience comes from my mother, you've never heard about her from me on the forums but I've talked about her once or twice in the moderators private corner and she's undergone two significant breakdowns in the last ten years one of which require hospitalization.

Let me put you in her shoes when she's off her meds and having a bad episode...
You have psychic powers... you don't really have said powers but you believe that when you look at someone you can tell everything about someone. You are able to see entire back stories and past histories based of a single meeting a few exchanged words. And now here's the kicker, 90% of what you see is negative and not only negative in a mild way but horribly so, a day in her life meeting new people was a day meeting men who beat their wives, women who neglected their children, rapists, child molesters and general assholes.

Remember all she needs to do is meet you once to form an opinion about you, one that she will hold on to despite all evidence to the contrary and if you do have a legitimate negative interaction she would over-react. This is the person who when I was in a fight in high school, a fight I started and was witnessed to and I had confessed to fighting another student she stormed into the office and assaulted the vice principle because she was convinced of... something to this day I don't know what but she believed the VP was framing me to get back at her because... who the hell knows. Either way she trashed his office and had the VP been any less understanding could have ended up with her in jail, instead she left and I helped the VP clean up his office.

Schizophrenics are perfectly capable of acting rationally within what they believe reality to be.

[General Zod]

[quote="<a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">General</a> Zod"]Maybe we should wait until an actual psychiatrist can diagnose this guy before making all sorts of grand proclomations about the state of his mental health? Just an idea.

For fuck's sake Zod, we are speculating. Dont be such a kill-joy. We can take bets if you prefer.[/quote]

It just seems like a cheap and easy cliche to bring up whenever something like this happens. Can't people come up with something better than "lol must've been insane?"

[Alyrium Denryle]

[quote="<a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">General</a> Zod"]Maybe we should wait until an actual psychiatrist can diagnose this guy before making all sorts of grand proclomations about the state of his mental health? Just an idea.

For fuck's sake Zod, we are speculating. Dont be such a kill-joy. We can take bets if you prefer.

It just seems like a cheap and easy cliche to bring up whenever something like this happens. Can't people come up with something better than "lol must've been insane?"[/quote]

And sometimes, very rarely, it IS something other than insanity. What, would you prefer we blame video games, or something that is actually likely, like being nuts?

[General Zod]

And sometimes, very rarely, it IS something other than insanity. What, would you prefer we blame video games, or something that is actually likely, like being nuts?

I don't know, but insanity seems like a quick and easy copout when there's no readily available explanation. It just seems funny to me that it's always insanity when someone's by themselves but not when they're with a group of people.

[Alyrium Denryle]

[quote="<a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">General</a> Zod"]

And sometimes, very rarely, it IS something other than insanity. What, would you prefer we blame video games, or something that is actually likely, like being nuts?

I don't know, but insanity seems like a quick and easy copout when there's no readily available explanation. It just seems funny to me that it's always insanity when someone's by themselves but not when they're with a group of people.[/quote]

That is because getting a group of people together requires a common motivation that is usually something that looks like "rational". If it is one guy? Religious or political extremism, or crazy--be it persistent or temporary.

Unless you have a better set of explanations.

[Lord Revan]

On the subject on insanity defense isn't, really, really hard to pull of in real life?

[CaptainChewbacca]

On the subject on insanity defense isn't, really, really hard to pull of in real life?

Not if you're actually insane. The question is between psycopathy and sociopathy. A psycopath cannot distinguish between right and wrong, while a sociopath knows but doesn't care. They would have to prove that Holmes is so disconnected from reality that he can't be held responsible for his actions.

[Lord Revan]

On the subject on insanity defense isn't, really, really hard to pull of in real life?

Not if you're actually insane. The question is between psycopathy and sociopathy. A psycopath cannot distinguish between right and wrong, while a sociopath knows but doesn't care. They would have to prove that Holmes is so disconnected from reality that he can't be held responsible for his actions.

what I meant it's not the 100% effective "get out of jail free" card it's generally depicted in media but rather of it to work you have to be actually truly insane.

[Alyrium Denryle]

On the subject on insanity defense isn't, really, really hard to pull of in real life?

Not if you're actually insane. The question is between psycopathy and sociopathy. A psycopath cannot distinguish between right and wrong, while a sociopath knows but doesn't care. They would have to prove that Holmes is so disconnected from reality that he can't be held responsible for his actions.

what I meant it's not the 100% effective "get out of jail free" card it's generally depicted in media but rather of it to work you have to be actually truly insane.

Yes, and you end up in a padded room until you are safe around others, which for many, never happens.

[Grumman]

If the doors were alarmed and used only in emergencies, or only opened at the end of a showing, or something, it would not only hopefully prevent another massacre like this, but also perhaps cut down on people trying to sneak in that way.

It is necessary for the doors to be operable from the inside while the movie's on, because that's when the room's full of people and when, if a fire cuts them off from the main entrance, they are most needed. I suppose you could just turn off the alarm for 10-20 minutes after the film ends, but that might cause problems with dumbasses not recognising that the alarm is on at other times.

[Zaune]

When people snap like this, people always look into his religious beliefs or academic and job issues. No one ever puts the spotlight on the obvious: no girlfriend.

Easy women. They could save America.

If that wasn't probably true, I'd really want to call you out for being crass and tasteless...

[Lord of the Abyss]

On the subject on insanity defense isn't, really, really hard to pull of in real life?

Not if you're actually insane.

It's my understanding from an interview of a lawyer I heard years ago that an actual, legal insanity defense is very hard to pull off, because the legal definition is both very restrictive and archaic. He explained that in the great majority of cases what the media calls an "insanity defense" is simply an attempt at a hung jury or jury nullification; the defense isn't trying to meet the legal definition of insanity, it's trying to appeal to the sympathy of the jury. Which probably wouldn't work in this case.