Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Eframepilot »

The Morning Plum: Mitt Romney is boxed in on Bain
Greg Sargent wrote: When it comes to the argument over the true nature of Mitt Romney’s ties to Bain Capital after 1999, when the controversial deals took place, there are two separate questions that — for all practical political purposes — don’t necessarily have the same answer:

1) Has it been proven that Romney asserted direct managerial control over the company during the period in question, or that he personally approved or consulted on any of the deals that are now the subject of the Obama campaign’s attacks?

2) Even if the answer to the above is No, should Romney still be held partly responsible for — and is it fair to associate him — the activities of a company which still listed him as chairman and CEO, which Romney himself co-founded and built up, and which retained ties to Romney in complicated ways during the disputed period?

The Romney campaign wants this dispute to start and end with the first question. That’s because we don’t have evidence that Romney was directly involved in the deals in question. But is it unreasonable or out of bounds for Democrats to continue asking the second question, particularly given the convoluted nature of his continued ties to the company and the continued revelations about those ties? Is this association really not fair game? That’s a tough case to make.

Some news outlets continue to conflate the above two questions. But today’s New York Times, in its big piece wrapping up what we now know about this whole story, rightly notes that the political argument is focused partly on the second question, and that there are no clean answers.

The Times presents both sides of the argument. It notes that there is “no evidence” Romney exercised control over Bain in the disputed period, but it also points out that “his campaign has declined to say if he attended any meetings or had any other contact with Bain during the period.”

Ultimately, Romney is now in a box. Obama and his advisers don’t mind if he keeps denying direct control over the company. By continuing to hit Romney over the deals, they are forcing him to continue denying responsibility for the activities of a firm at which he continued to be listed as CEO and chairman. This will be a hard argument for Romney to make convincingly, and it reinforces the Obama campaign’s larger message about Romney’s shiftiness and lack of transparency about his finances. And the Romney camp’s jargony rebuttals are far more difficult to grasp than is the Obama camp’s continued question: Doesn’t the buck stop with you?

....
It's hilarious how badly Romney is responding to Obama's attacks over his Bain record and how he is getting caught up in his own increasingly ridiculous lies, and his counterattacks on Obama are clumsy at best. Romney's campaign seems to have learned their political lessons on the playground with their main attack being, "I'm like rubber, you're like glue". Obama releases a very effective ad attacking Romney's record while making fun of his singing? Let's make an ad making fun of OBAMA's singing, with some "crony capitalism" accusations thrown in! Crony capitalism certainly isn't something that Romney could be accused of-oh wait.

The only sad part is that political scientists say none of this really matters because voters only care about the state of the economy; whether or not they're right, it's depressing to hear them state it over and over.
User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Eframepilot »

David Frum, a conservative who is borderline sane at times, describes Romney's awful week:

Mitt Romney's Painfully Bad Week
David Frum wrote: (CNN) -- By any measure, the Mitt Romney for president campaign has had a painfully bad week. What went wrong?

The bad news began Wednesday. That day, Romney addressed the NAACP convention in Houston. The speech was poorly received, so much so that Romney, in an interview that afternoon on Fox Business, told host Neil Cavuto that he had "expected" boos. Some interpreted that comment as proof that Romney had actually wanted to be booed by the NAACP in order to rev up elements of the conservative base.

The Romney campaign next reacted by whispering to the Drudge Report (which acts as a kind of message board for Romney) that it was seriously considering Condoleezza Rice as a running mate. That story excited the press for half a day, until reporters remembered two hard realities: Party conservatives won't accept a pro-choice running mate, and Rice has made repeated public statements of lack of interest in the VP job.

The NAACP story probably moved few votes. But it's interesting in its own right -- and as a warning of the bigger trouble that hit the campaign on Thursday.
Gillespie: Romney retroactively retired

The NAACP incident shows a hyperactive campaign war room, overcorrecting one way ("the boos are no big deal; everything's going according to plan!") and then overcorrecting the other way ("we weren't trying to generate TV images of racial confrontation; why, look, here's Condi Rice!"), spinning and counterspinning without any forethought for how this hour's aggressive statement would sound when the next hour's realities arrived.

And it was that "win the hour" mentality that got the Romney campaign into much more serious trouble when the Obama campaign launched a big push on Romney's business record the next day.

Thursday morning, the Obama campaign released a tough ad attacking the record of downsizing and outsourcing at Romney's old firm, Bain Capital.

The Romney campaign reacted with outrage. That same day, it announced a multimillion-dollar purchase of airtime for an ad that bluntly accused President Obama of lying.

In support of the ad, Romney's team argued that he had left Bain Capital in February 1999; the incidents alluded to by the Obama campaign all occurred after that date and had nothing to do with Romney.

Wham. The first attack on Romney had been a jab, dropping Romney's guard against the haymaker: On Friday, the Obama team counter-charged that it was Romney who was lying in his ads or who had committed a felony, lying on 140 official forms that he signed as CEO and sole shareholder of Bain between 1999 and 2002.

Romney now chased the Obama story, granting five TV interviews to reiterate his version of events. The more he talked, the more deeply into trouble he sank. By Sunday, even Romney supporters were urging the thing he wants least: release of more income tax returns.

And here again, what got Romney into the trouble was his war room. It was the too-fierce response to Attack 1 -- the adamant insistence that Romney had nothing, nothing to do with anything that happened at Bain after February 1999 -- that set up Romney for Attack 2: Did he lie on SEC forms? And now he will struggle through the rest of the election trying to reconcile his answers. Yes, it is technically true that Romney ended his operational role at Bain before he ended his titular role. It was also technically true (as Josh Marshall points out) that John Kerry did vote for the $87 billion before he voted against it.

Romney's core problem is this: He heads a party that must win two-thirds of the white working-class vote in presidential elections to compensate for its weakness in almost every demographic category. The white working class is the most pessimistic and alienated group in the electorate, and it especially fears and dislikes the kind of financial methods that gained Romney his fortune.

Romney has a strong potential defense: Bain was in the business of making companies more efficient and profitable. Downsizing and outsourcing were necessary -- and often indispensable -- means to that end. In a growing economy, the workers who lost their jobs should find new jobs elsewhere, and it's precisely the relentless search for profitability that causes economies to grow in the first place.

That's an argument that, to borrow an old joke of Henry Kissinger's, is not only convincing but has the additional merit of being true. However, it's not an argument that appeals much to the voters Romney most intensely needs to win. Hence his unleashing of the war room -- but in the end, there's only so much a war room can do. And this time, by trying to do too much, the Romney war room may have blasted its own side with lethal friendly fire.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Mr Bean »

More and more this thing looks like it could have legs because lets be blunt it is very much an either or situation and every day we get new document releases that show Romney was signing stuff as CEO until 2002. Sooner or later they are going to find an old Bain business partner who is willing to come forward and say "Yes I talked with Romney in 200x and he was in charge and deciding stuff". It's the refresh effect, every time a new piece of confirmation comes out you can restart the news cycle and refer to everything that came before. The news media is fundamentally lazy and likes to talk about the easy stories and this is an easy story. Even Fox gets in on the action because they have to bat down what MSNBC and CNN are saying when not trying to find a new scandal to pin on Obama.

At the end of the day it's one of two choices for Mitt Romney
Option A
The bad option of admitting that he's been lying to the American people and he was CEO until 2002 and thus responsible for Bain's worst bit of predatory takeovers and shipping of jobs overseas from 2000-2002 and there is plenty of negative stuff in there to talk about for the next few months.

Option B
Or the unthinkable option of admitting he lied to the SEC and thus is guilty of multiple felonies and he really did leave in 1999 but continued to pay himself for a job he was not doing and was in charge of something he was not watching.

Every day he refuses to take Option A increases the chances that Option B will be forced on him by the SEC opening an official investigation into the matter which lets remember would be all anyone would talk about even on Fox and lets remember a possible floor fight if the 73 super-delegates and enough bound delegates abstain. It's being talked about again what would happen if Romney was brought up on charges before the Republican Convention and if he could be forced out.... in large part thanks to Ron Paul it's quite possible thanks to all the delegates games he's played.

Right now as it stands Mitt Romney has 1449 delegates he's "won" (Plus 73 super delegates) however Paul captured by their own estimates 507 delegates of which 372 delegates are Romney, Santorum or Gingrich delegates Paul swiped which means if a state like NY abstains minus the Paul people Romney would fail to secure the 1144 necessary but that is only possible with the Republican party actively forcing Romney out against his will which is about as likely as them re-nominating Cheney as Romney's running mate after he's been charged.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Mr Bean »

OAN I went to CNN.com for another reason and what was the front page story but this...
CNN Facts don't support Obama's charges against Romney
It's an opinion piece claiming that neither A nor B is true written by David Gergan who says in his own piece the following hilarious line.
David Gergan wrote:Let me acknowledge upfront what I have said several times on CNN: I have a past relationship with the top partners at Bain that is both personal and financial. I have worked with them in support of nonprofit organizations such as City Year. I have given a couple of paid speeches for Bain dinners, as I have for many other groups. I was on the board of a for-profit child care company, Bright Horizons, that was purchased by Bain Capital. It was a transaction with financial benefits for all board members and shareholders, including me.

So, yes, I have a bias. But let me also add how that bias plays out: I have come to admire and like the leaders of Bain Capital because I have learned firsthand that in a private equity industry, where there are obviously some predatory companies, Bain stands out for the respect in which it is generally held and for the generous philanthropy of some of its partners. Nothing I have seen so far has shaken that view.
So he gets top billing for an opinion piece and he has a direct financial interest in the success of Bain Capital, has been payed by them in the past and is currently invested in them. And again he gets top front page billing by CNN to defend them.

His piece is not all that interesting beyond that except in the fact it's late by a few hours with again (The refresh cycle remember) that Romney was the only listed owner, the CEO and sole stakeholder in several companies Bain bought in 2002 and somehow I don't think Romney the type to simply sign anything put in front of him when he is again the CEO and owner of the company where 70% of his wealth was invested.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Pelranius
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3539
Joined: 2006-10-24 11:35am
Location: Around and about the Beltway

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Pelranius »

With that "retroactive retirement" comment by Ed Gillespie on CNN yesterday, I hope he's working for free for the Romney campaign.

Stewart and Colbert are so going to have a field day with that tonight.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
User avatar
Coop D'etat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2007-02-23 01:38pm
Location: UBC Unincorporated land

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Coop D'etat »

Leaving aside any relative truth value or legitimacy of the methods, this is pretty reminiscent of the Swift Boat play in Bush vs. Kerry.

The challanger based a lot of his personal case for the presidency on part of their biography relevant the current challanges America believed it was facing (Kerry; War hero to run War on Terror. Romney; Businessman to fix economy). The incumbent's side pokes holes in this claim during the summer before the convention and before the challenger really gets a chance to define themselves.

This seems like it could work very well on Romney because he's running away from any accomplishments he had as a Governor and running entirely as the super businessman from Bain. Take away running Bain from Romney as a conversation he wants to have and then the only personal qualification he wants to talk about is being the guy that fixed up the Winter Olympics. Just like Kerry was just a wealthy Senator without the Vietnam angle.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Simon_Jester »

There's a bit of a tactical difference, I think, because of the angle of attack.

With Kerry, the goal was simply to discredit him personally, make him just another empty suit. With Romney, I think the goal isn't just to discredit him. It's to forcibly rebrand him. Sure, his claims to be an honorable man are attacked. But so is the very idea that his kind of person should be running the system- the centimillionaire is painted as Mister Job Killer, Mister One Percent, Mister Swiss Bank Account, the embodiment of Wall Street beating on Main Street.

Bush separated those two angles of attack in his campaign. The Swift-boating campaign to attack his war record didn't really depend on the effort to paint him as a flip-flopper, or vice versa. That made Kerry more vulnerable, since even if he could stop one jaw of the vise, he still had to deal with the other one.

Romney's advantage is that if he somehow beats his own "Mr. 1%" image, he comes out of the campaign looking pretty good. His disadvantage is that that's a hard reputation to beat.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
UnderAGreySky
Jedi Knight
Posts: 641
Joined: 2010-01-07 06:39pm
Location: the land of tea and crumpets

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by UnderAGreySky »

It sort of also works from the point of view that if Mitt was being paid over $100,000 per year for the three years he supposedly did no work in spite of being CEO, sole shareholder, grand poobah, Man Monday-to-Friday then it plays into the narrative that the rich deserve to be taxed more (or their tax cuts rescinded) because they are not doing any "job creating".
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies,
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
User avatar
Broken
Padawan Learner
Posts: 341
Joined: 2010-10-15 10:45am
Location: In Transit

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Broken »

An interesting thing that caught my eye, I think it was on the Crooks and Liars website, was that when Romney ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002 some Democrats tried to get him removed from the ballot since he had spent most of the previous couple years in Utah working on the Salt Lake City Olympics. Thus they argued, he was not eligible to run for office in Massachusetts. Romney's campaign defended itself by pointing out Bain Capital as his primary occupation. I do not know the details of Massachusetts election law, but this seems it could be important.

Either Romney was in charge at Bain as he claimed in order to be eligible to run for governor and thus was caught up in all of Bain's out-sourcing and such during that time period or he was a figurehead that let the corporation he was supposedly in charge of do whatever it wanted while he still drew a paycheck for doing nothing or he indeed "retroactively retired" and had nothing to do with those deals and just lied to the people of Massachusetts in order to get elected to an office he was not eligible for. More likely, he met the bare minimum for the election eligibility, but its an interesting mess he's in.
"If you're caught with an ounce of cocaine, the chances are good you're going to jail. Evidently, if you launder nearly $1 billion for drug cartels and violate our international sanctions, your company pays a fine and you go home and sleep in your own bed at night." Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-MA)


The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finwë.
Patroklos
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2577
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Patroklos »

Broken wrote:An interesting thing that caught my eye, I think it was on the Crooks and Liars website, was that when Romney ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002 some Democrats tried to get him removed from the ballot since he had spent most of the previous couple years in Utah working on the Salt Lake City Olympics. Thus they argued, he was not eligible to run for office in Massachusetts. Romney's campaign defended itself by pointing out Bain Capital as his primary occupation. I do not know the details of Massachusetts election law, but this seems it could be important.
This is the Democrats getting lost in their own talking points. The first part is correct, but the second is not. Romney proved his residence in Mass by pointing out several trips he took to attend board meetings of other companies he got involved with while at Bain pre 1999, but the records from that same electoral commission show he never attended any Bain events and did not even list Bain as a reference to prove residency.

http://factcheck.org/2012/07/romneys...me-conclusion/

http://factcheck.org/2012/07/factche...nt-is-all-wet/
Either Romney was in charge at Bain as he claimed in order to be eligible to run for governor and thus was caught up in all of Bain's out-sourcing and such during that time period or he was a figurehead that let the corporation he was supposedly in charge of do whatever it wanted while he still drew a paycheck for doing nothing or he indeed "retroactively retired" and had nothing to do with those deals and just lied to the people of Massachusetts in order to get elected to an office he was not eligible for. More likely, he met the bare minimum for the election eligibility, but its an interesting mess he's in.
Again, Romney made no such claim in regards to his run for governor. If you want to put the legacy of Bain on him after he retired feel free and that is not entirely unfair, but avoid falling for the blatant lies peddled by Obama's team in the process.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Mr Bean »

To paraphrase John Stewart
The idea that Mitt Romney paid himself 100,000$ a year to run a company he was the CEO, Managing Director, Owner and Majority Stock holder and never once made a single decision or payed any attention to Bain for over two years is ludicrous.

But for the sake of argument lets assume that's true... that does not speak well of Romney if true and it means he's a felon for lying to the SEC.

*Edit and as pointed out elsewhere because of the income situation not only would be guilty of lying to the SEC but also possibly tax evasion depending on how the taxes were filed on his profits from those two years. All sorts of deductions that a CEO can take that a retired former CEO can not. If he took advantage of those deductions on behalf of his business but was in fact retired that's a second felony.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Mr Bean »

Two new updates on the story

1. Further theory six on why Mitt Romney won't release his tax returns, because 2008 was such a shitty year, his losses should be easily enough to have paid zero taxes in his 2009 return which while complete legal, free and clear.... looks horrible politically because the average person can not get that deal, or thinks they can't instinctively. Either way it runs against his terrible Obama tax narrative if he himself pays no taxes even if it's for one year

2. The National Review Online has said Romney needs to release them. The NRO is not a big deal unless your a Republican in which case it is a big deal as one of the historic centers of conservative beliefs.

The National Review
NRO wrote:
Mitt Romney is steadfastly resisting calls to release additional years of his personal tax returns, arguing — not without good reason — that this demand is part of a fishing expedition by the Obama campaign, which hopes to exploit Romney’s personal wealth and successful business career as part of a class-warfare election strategy. Romney argues that whatever he releases will not be enough to satisfy the Obama campaign and its factota in the media, who are, once again, proving their bias and double standards. Romney is right, but he should release the returns anyway. Let them go fish.

We doubt that there is anything truly surprising in Romney’s additional personal tax returns (he’s already released 2010 and will release more from 2011). We already know that he has made vast amounts of money, that he gives generously to his church and to charities, that he has set up trusts for his family, that he maintains bank accounts and investments overseas, and that he takes advantages of such benefits as are available to him under our ridiculously complex tax code. If there is scandal to be had of that, it can be had from the information that already is available. But there is no scandal in that: Romney is a wealthy man — and he has complicated personal finances, something that is typical of wealthy men. In fact, Romney’s personal finances are a very good case study in what’s wrong with the American tax system and regulatory climate.

Advertisement
The Romney campaign says he has released as many returns as candidate John Kerry did in 2004, and cites Teresa Heinz Kerry’s refusal to release any of her tax returns. Neither is an apt comparison. John Kerry actually released returns from 1999 through 2003, and also released tax returns during his Senate runs. As for Teresa Heinz, Romney isn’t the wealthy spouse of a candidate, but the candidate himself. In 2008, John McCain released two years of returns, but he had been filling out financial disclosure forms for decades as a senator. Romney protests that he is not legally obliged to release any tax returns. Of course not. He is no longer in the realm of the private sector, though, where he can comply with the letter of the law with the Securities and Exchange Commission and leave it at that. Perceptions matter.

Romney may feel impatience with requirements that the political culture imposes on a presidential candidate that he feels are pointless (and inconvenient). But he’s a politician running for the highest office in the land, and his current posture is probably unsustainable. In all likelihood, he won’t be able to maintain a position that looks secretive and is a departure from campaign conventions. The only question is whether he releases more returns now, or later — after playing more defense on the issue and sustaining more hits. There will surely be a press feeding frenzy over new returns, but better to weather it in the middle of July.

If he releases more returns, Romney will be in a better position to resist the inevitable demands for even more disclosures. More important, he will be in a better position to pivot his campaign to what should be its focus — telling a story, through a series of detailed, substantive speeches, about where he wants to take the country. It is to President Obama’s advantage to fight the election out over tactics and minutiae. By drawing out the argument over the returns, Romney is playing into the president’s hands. He should release them, respond to any attacks they bring, and move on.
This is opinion but keep in mind NRO is not a place that does not allow an opinon piece not directly in line with the belief of the owners and leaders to be published.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Pelranius
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3539
Joined: 2006-10-24 11:35am
Location: Around and about the Beltway

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Pelranius »

Patroklos wrote:
Either Romney was in charge at Bain as he claimed in order to be eligible to run for governor and thus was caught up in all of Bain's out-sourcing and such during that time period or he was a figurehead that let the corporation he was supposedly in charge of do whatever it wanted while he still drew a paycheck for doing nothing or he indeed "retroactively retired" and had nothing to do with those deals and just lied to the people of Massachusetts in order to get elected to an office he was not eligible for. More likely, he met the bare minimum for the election eligibility, but its an interesting mess he's in.
Again, Romney made no such claim in regards to his run for governor. If you want to put the legacy of Bain on him after he retired feel free and that is not entirely unfair, but avoid falling for the blatant lies peddled by Obama's team in the process.[/quote]

At the risk of stating the stupidly obvious, Romney has been hyping the 1999 date during the 2012 election, oh sublime one.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
User avatar
Lord MJ
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1562
Joined: 2002-07-07 07:40pm
Contact:

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Lord MJ »

And just like that, when it appears Obama finally has the upper hand, he says something that makes him appear anti-business, allowing the Romney camp to regain the initiative.

I'm referring to his implication that business owners didn't really build their businesses, and are not responsible for their successes, government is. At least that's how the GOP and the Romney campaign are spinning it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... uild-that/

By now you’ve surely heard about Barack Obama’s “you didn’t build that” line. In case you haven’t, here’s the full quote, from a speech in Roanoke:
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
The Romney campaign immediately seized on the moment for a campaign ad. Ezra related this to research about what policy regime best promotes entrepreneurship. But, as Julian Sanchez notes, Obama’s speech is murky in terms of what values it expresses. Descriptively, it’s clear what Obama means: No one has even built a road on their own, and if they had, it wouldn’t be good enough to drive on.
But let’s suppose you did build a road entirely on your own, and you charge tolls and you make a lot of money off it. Do you deserve that money? After all, you did all the work yourself. Then again, maybe you only know how to build a road because you had good parents who paid for good schools where you learned about civil engineering. And even if they hadn’t, maybe you’re only capable of understanding the concepts needed to build a road because you inherited DNA that gave you a brain that can understand those concepts. Maybe you wouldn’t even have had gotten into civil engineering unless an aunt had given you a book on it as a present, and if she had chosen to give you a book on rocketry instead you would have pursued that career. Do you still deserve that money?
Political philosophers are sharply divided on these questions. Many do not like the idea that people “deserve” things at all. For one thing, most people think that to deserve something, a person must have done something to deserve it. That implies that there are actions that for which certain people are responsible. Seem obvious? A lot of metaphysicians don’t think so. For one thing, that claim presupposes the existence of free will. Some philosophers are what is called “hard determinists,” who deny that anything that could be called free will exists. Others, called compatibilists or “soft determinists,” believe that it is both true that free will exists and that every action is determined. They reason that free will exists if people can act according to their own motives without interference. Those motives are determined by factors outside those people, compatibilists argue, but they still have free will.
But if hard or soft determinism is true, how can people be responsible for their actions, and thus deserve things because of them? The philosopher Harry Frankfurt of Princeton tried to explain how this could be so. In the 1969 paper, “Alternate Possibilities and Moral Responsibility,” he argued that there are many cases where we would hold somebody responsible for an action even when the person could not have acted otherwise. Suppose you are going to get a burrito for lunch and can either go to Chipotle or Qdoba. Suppose also that I have implanted a chip in your brain such that if you decide to go to Qdoba, chemicals are released into your brain that change your mind and you instead decide to go to Chipotle. Suppose finally that you get up, decide to go to Chipotle, and eat your burrito in peace without my chip ever being activated. You are clearly responsible for going to Chipotle, but you could not have done otherwise.
The problem is that you are not morally responsible for going to Chipotle if you were originally planning to go to Qdoba and the chip does fire. And if causal determinism is true, your DNA and brain chemistry are more or less equivalent to that chip. In both cases, something you have no control over is manipulating your brain and making you do things. So it’s possible Frankfurt is wrong, and we cannot deserve things if free will is false.

John Rawls / Harvard University and Gerald Cohen / McGill University.

Some political philosophers think desert is possible even if determinism means individual moral responsibility is impossible. John Rawls, in his book A Theory of Justice, endorsed what he called “institutional desert”. There are certain institutions, he reasons, that a just society must have. People deserve whatever benefits or treatment these just institutions would provide them. But they do not deserve this treatment because of things they have done. They deserve them because justice demands institutions that provide this kind of treatment. Most Rawlsians and other “high liberals” who support an institutional notion of justice, such as my old thesis advisor Tim Scanlon, lean to the left in real political terms, believing that just institutions would provide considerable economic and social support to citizens.
Utilitarians and other consequentialists – who think that the moral action is about promoting good outcomes like happiness - usually reject the idea of desert. Some, like J.J.C. Smart of Monash University, also believe (pdf) that determinism is true and precludes moral responsibility, and take this as a reason to believe that we should just maximize good things whether or not that results in people getting the goods they “deserve”. Others concede that free will could exist but insist that even in that case, what matters is promoting good outcomes, not giving people what they deserve due to their actions.
Utilitarians are in some way even more left-leaning than Rawlsians, as the theory implies, according to Peter Singer (pdf) and many others, that residents of rich countries should give almost all their money away to the poor. What’s more, it doesn’t particularly matter to utilitarians whether people give the money away voluntarily or if the government takes it from them, as utilitarians do not believe that people have inalienable rights, such as a right against excessive taxation. NYU’s Sam Scheffler, whose view combined elements of “high liberalism” and consequentialism, has expressed concern that the unpopularity of desert among liberals in political philosophy disconnects the discipline from real political debates about welfare, crime and other issues, where responsibility and desert matter a great deal.
Funnily enough, the main proponents of a robust idea of desert within academic political philosophy are luck egalitarians, who are arguably the most left-wing contingent in real world political terms, seeing as they support eliminating inequalities in wealth due to differences in intelligence. This school, which includes the late G.A. Cohen of Oxford and UC San Diego’s Richard Arneson, argues that it is morally imperative to minimize the degree to which people’s life outcomes are attributable to luck. And, if determinism is true, more or less everything is a matter of luck. This is why luck egalitarians generally reject determinism in favor of “metaphysical libertarianism” – the confusing term for the position that free will and determinism cannot be reconciled, and free will exists. In his classic essay, “On the Currency of Egalitarian Justice,” Cohen wrote (pdf), ”We may indeed be up to our necks in the free will problem, but that is just tough luck. It is not a reason for not following the argument where it goes.”
Many right-leaning political philosophers reject the idea of desert as well. The libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick supported limited government because he thought government coercion was almost always an impingement upon individual rights, not because he thought rich people deserved what they got. At most, he believed that in virtue of their rights, people deserved not to be denied what they earned through “acts of capitalism between consenting adults.” He in fact argued aggressively against those who would have the government distribute goods to people based upon what it judged they deserved.

JJC Smart / Monash University and Alasdair MacIntyre / Boston University.

Virtue ethicists like Notre Dame’s Alasdair McIntyre who take their cues from Aristotle believe that just as we would call a dog with three legs defective, there are certain humans who are morally defective. They disagree about what moral defect like this looks like, though conservative virtue ethicists consider abortion, premarital sex, and so forth included, but few think moral action has much to do with giving others what they deserve. Instead, they think it has to do with you yourself living up to the standards of all humans. If those standards involve giving the government or others the money you earned, it does not matter if you “deserve” that money in some sense.
So let’s say you built that bridge. Do you deserve the toll money? It all depends on whether you can deserve anything, and on whether or not it even matters, ethically, that you get what you deserve. In short, the answer a lot of philosophers give to “You didn’t build that!” is, “All right, so what?” Which is perhaps why, in general, politicians don’t spend a lot of time listening to philosophers.
The conservatives spin of course, but it was still a stupid thing to say given the American culture of individualism. He opened himself up to attack and if Romney can successfully paint Obama as anti private Entrepreneurship then people will care far more about that then whether Romney stopped running Bain in 1999 or 2002.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18683
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Rogue 9 »

Funny, when Elizabeth Warren said the same damn thing about a year ago, it was trumpeted to the heavens as a blow to the one percent, a truthful insight into the nature of the system. Now when the President says it, it's an attack on free enterprise rather than a truth about how civilization supports free enterprise...
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Lord MJ
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1562
Joined: 2002-07-07 07:40pm
Contact:

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Lord MJ »

Well in the president's case, the accusations of being anti-business have been a consistent theme of the Romney campaign. It seems rather foolish to say something that plays into his hands. Especially given that many of the people who would be deciding this election are small business owners.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Simon_Jester »

A line in a speech will fade eventually.

The tax returns and the "job killing vulture capitalist" angle, those will keep coming back.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Eframepilot »

It's a distortion of what Obama meant to say. In context, he clearly meant that business owners didn't build the roads, bridges, infrastructure etc. of the whole country that lets them prosper so much. Conservatives and the Romney campaign have seized upon that one sentence and taken it out of context, even resorting to editing Obama's speech in campaign commercials. In the end, it won't have any more influence over the campaign than Obama's infamous "spread the wealth" comment to Joe the Plumber in 2008.
aieeegrunt
Jedi Knight
Posts: 512
Joined: 2009-12-23 10:14pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by aieeegrunt »

The more attention and exposure the conservatives bring to the basic truth that Nobody Got Rich By Themselves the better.
User avatar
Lord MJ
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1562
Joined: 2002-07-07 07:40pm
Contact:

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Lord MJ »

The problem is that he's ascribing to government action the success of business. Which is deeply offensive to the business minded. My MBA circles are already going apeshit about this. The people that are being offended by this message are not joe-shmoe or religious crazies. It's the businessmen, the business minded, the educated, and the leaders in our society that are being offended. People that do vote, and people that will remember.

If a dumb person hates what you say, it probably wont matter after a few months. If an learned person hates what you say, then they will have long memories.
Block
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: 2007-08-06 02:36pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Block »

Lord MJ wrote: My MBA circles are already going apeshit about this. .
Then your MBA circles are full of morons who don't deserve their degrees. No one does anything on their own. Ever.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18683
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Rogue 9 »

Lord MJ wrote:The problem is that he's ascribing to government action the success of business. Which is deeply offensive to the business minded. My MBA circles are already going apeshit about this. The people that are being offended by this message are not joe-shmoe or religious crazies. It's the businessmen, the business minded, the educated, and the leaders in our society that are being offended. People that do vote, and people that will remember.

If a dumb person hates what you say, it probably wont matter after a few months. If an learned person hates what you say, then they will have long memories.
Speaking as one of the educated, I'm not offended by what he said, because I can parse what was said and understand it - namely, that the "that" in "you didn't build that" refers to the infrastructure and education (not just of the business owner himself, but his employees who wouldn't be able to do their jobs for him without it) that businesses depend on, not the businesses themselves.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Simon_Jester »

On the one hand, no one is ever going to run this country in a competent, honorable way unless they anger the Randists.

On the other, it is very hard to win an election after angering too many demographics.


Though MJ, I'd like to ask you something. Bush was making the Democratic intelligentsia go berserk left and right from 2000 clear through 2008. He never hesitated to say things that left-wing pundits would decide were evil or anti-American. Somehow, he kept getting re-elected.

Should Obama should be more worried about right-wing intelligentsia than Bush was about left-wing intelligentsia?

Ultimately, I think froth about single individual quotes just... isn't going to matter. The sort of person who can fixate on a single quote and remain angry about it for months and months is a strange one. They'll find something as an excuse to hate the target of that hatred.

If Obama shows a pattern of really denigrating business, so that it stops being a "Fox News yelling about it and bending the grammar into a pretzel" and becomes "the whole world can tell this is deeply hostile to business," that's going to matter. We could discuss the effects of that in detail. But that's a whole different level of problem than "he said one thing that pisses me off."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
aieeegrunt
Jedi Knight
Posts: 512
Joined: 2009-12-23 10:14pm

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by aieeegrunt »

Block wrote:
Lord MJ wrote: My MBA circles are already going apeshit about this. .
Then your MBA circles are full of morons who don't deserve their degrees. No one does anything on their own. Ever.
Absolutely. How many times have supposed American business titans fucked the pooch and had their asses bailed out by government? This is what, the third time for Chrysler? How many of them get ridiculous amounts of direct and indirect corporate welfare on the taxpayer's dime (lol General Electic pays no taxes)?

This is just direct government cash showers too. Your MBA assholes only have workers to hire and buildings to rent and clean water to drink and roads to move goods on because of government, but you know the drill by now.
Pelranius
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3539
Joined: 2006-10-24 11:35am
Location: Around and about the Beltway

Re: Romney campaign flailing over response to Bain attacks

Post by Pelranius »

Simon_Jester wrote:
If Obama shows a pattern of really denigrating business, so that it stops being a "Fox News yelling about it and bending the grammar into a pretzel" and becomes "the whole world can tell this is deeply hostile to business," that's going to matter. We could discuss the effects of that in detail. But that's a whole different level of problem than "he said one thing that pisses me off."
Indeed. While the President's word choice could have been better, this sort of thing isn't going to stick around very much in the current news cycle (might have been a different story in the 1970s or 1980s where Ford's Poland gaffe caused real problems, but I sense that this isn't going to stick around long, compared to say the Romney tax returns debacle).
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
Post Reply