10 dead, 35+ wounded at Batman premiere shooting

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Somebody has to be responsible for the rampant violence that is shown today

This is fucking stupid; how about the guy with the guns?

Why would you sue somebody without any money?

That's why it's stupid.

[Broomstick]

The same place she got the "dude would kill and bury his girlfriends and if he was sleeping with one, he may have not gone on the rampage."

I'm sorry you are incapable of discriminating between pure speculation and a conclusion based on upon evidence, the fact he was on a very exclusive study track you could only get onto by being a stand out even among high performing students.

And I'm sorry you are incapable of pulling shit from your ass when it comes to said speculation. Your post about him murdering prospective girlfriends and burying them was one of the stupidest posts I've read in this thread. How does that at all aid to the discussion about the incident? How is that even sound speculation? It made you look like a joke.

And in this thread it was Mike Wong who first proposed that if he had gotten laid maybe he wouldn't have turned into a murderer, but hey, I guess it's OK when Mike says it but when I riff on (presumably) tongue-in-cheek observation of Mike's then it turns into bullshit.

But let's take it seriously for just an instant - there has been more than one serial killer who did, indeed, dispose of his victims under the basement floor, John Wayne Gacy being one of the more infamous. So, sorry, it's not total asspull that someone might do that.

He would not have been accepted to the PhD program he was in without being extremely academically gifted,

Academically gifted =/= genius.

True, however, it can be indicative of such.

According to the 2006 census, 2.5 million people have PhDs; are they all geniuses?

Gee, that's less than 1% of the total US population. Some of them may be of average intellect but extremely dedicated to study, but overall I'd expect the rate of genius level intellects among PhD's to be MUCH higher than in the general population as having a greater than average intellect would be an enormous advantage in pursuing such a degree. Proof positive? No, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption.

And Holmes was in the process of dropping out of the fucking program anyway, because he was struggling academically and did poorly on a big exam.

Which wouldn't be surprising if he was spending his time engineering a murder spree rather than studying, or if he was experiencing worsening mental illness, or both, at the time. It's not just a matter of what he has or hasn't done in the past six months, it's what he's done in the proceeding dozen years. Granted it's the media and you have to take it with a grain of salt, but it's being reported that he was, until very recently, at the very top of any school or class he was part of. Again, an indication of greater than average ability.

Oh, and I'll also note that in your second link the forensic psychiatrist also speculated on a possible inability to form "satisfying sexual attachments" so I guess he's asspulling, too.

I am not trying to paint him as a moron or anything. But calling him a genius, I think, is inaccurate.

I think it's a reasonable conclusion at this point. It doesn't bother me that you don't agree, but I still think people want to minimize his ability as part of the usual after-the-fact denigration of the suspect. It's like people calling him a coward. No, he wasn't, it takes brass balls to pull off what he did but the notion that (for lack of a better term) evil can be brave really disturbs people. Society only wants good people to be brave. Brave bad guys are just too fucking scary.

nor is the US government in the habit of handing out $26,000/year stipends to just anyone.

What kind of stipend was it?

It was a grant from the National Institutes of Health specifically for a doctorate-level student studying neuroscience. The National Institutes of Health also paid the entire cost of his tuition to attend the University of Colorado. I seriously doubt that combination is handed out like candy.

What were the requirements?

Enrollment in a doctorate level program in neuroscience after being selected from among other such students as being someone anticipated to make significant contributions to the field. And probably a few others, but that's the main point, to train outstanding future scientists. Not all doctorate candidates in the field get this, so he must have stood out from among even that select group.

As to whether it was given to him directly or via the school I don't know but I don't think that distinction makes a huge difference. The school isn't going to be handing that out to idiots or average students, either.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh, and I'll also note that in your second link the forensic psychiatrist also speculated on a possible inability to form "satisfying sexual attachments" so I guess he's asspulling, too.

... what does this have to do with anything?

I think it's a reasonable conclusion at this point. It doesn't bother me that you don't agree, but I still think people want to minimize his ability as part of the usual after-the-fact denigration of the suspect.

You said that he is "undeniably" a genius. You don't think this is completely overreacting in the OTHER direction? You seem to be going through great pains to portray him as a trouble genius, when all the evidence seems to point to him being a good student that was also batshit insane. That is a far cry from being an undeniable genius. In my opinion.

It was a grant from the National Institutes of Health specifically for a doctorate-level student studying neuroscience. The National Institutes of Health also paid the entire cost of his tuition to attend the University of Colorado. I seriously doubt that combination is handed out like candy.

Do you have a source for NIH paying his tuition? I haven't seen any source saying that (though, admittedly, I am not following this all too closely).

Enrollment in a doctorate level program in neuroscience after being selected from among other such students as being someone anticipated to make significant contributions to the field. And probably a few others, but that's the main point, to train outstanding future scientists. Not all doctorate candidates in the field get this, so he must have stood out from among even that select group.

Are you sure this is why he got the stipend? The NIH hand out stipends to thousands of students for a variety of reasons. Hell, you can get a stipend like that just by knowing the right person.

As to whether it was given to him directly or via the school I don't know but I don't think that distinction makes a huge difference. The school isn't going to be handing that out to idiots or average students, either.

It does make a big difference. How schools handle things are very different, especially research institutions. He could have just talked to the right person, or been persistent about it. I work in academia, and I can tell you first-hand how much bullshit goes on with funding of any sort.

Basically, I am a lot more cynical about academia and PhDs than you are, because I work in that environment every day, and I can tell you that simply being part of the 1% of the population with one does not make you a genius, or even especially intelligent. And how little funding is indicative of true "prowess" or whatever you want to call it. I can complain for hours about the stupidity of national funding schemes, but it is irrelevant.

Anway, I guess this is just agree to disagree.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

What do you know, some gun store owner said on the news if some of the other cinema goers were armed, the guy could have been stopped sooner; the news also said that gun sales have gone up 25% in the wake of the shootings.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What do you know, some gun store owner said on the news if some of the other cinema goers were armed, the guy could have been stopped sooner; the news also said that gun sales have gone up 25% in the wake of the shootings.

That's just a reflexive statement from someone who probably hadn't heard that he used tear gas and smoke to suppress fire and other resistance from the crowd.

[General Zod]

What do you know, some gun store owner said on the news if some of the other cinema goers were armed, the guy could have been stopped sooner; the news also said that gun sales have gone up 25% in the wake of the shootings.

That's just a reflexive statement from someone who probably hadn't heard that he used tear gas and smoke to suppress fire and other resistance from the crowd.

Not to mention being dark and crowded, and you have a recipe for a disaster if some Rambo wannabe tried stopping the guy.

[weemadando]

What do you know, some gun store owner said on the news if some of the other cinema goers were armed, the guy could have been stopped sooner; the news also said that gun sales have gone up 25% in the wake of the shootings.

That's just a reflexive statement from someone who probably hadn't heard that he used tear gas and smoke to suppress fire and other resistance from the crowd.

Proove that it's an uninformed reflexive statement and not further proof of the irrationality of gun culture advocates.

[Solauren]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but.....

Actor Christian Bale visits Colorado shooting victims

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Christian Bale, the actor behind the Batman mask in "The Dark Knight Rises," visited victims of last week's movie theater shooting as they recovered at an Aurora, Colorado, hospital on Tuesday, a spokeswoman for the facility said.

Emily Crowley, spokeswoman for the Medical Center of Aurora, confirmed that the movie star was at the hospital Tuesday afternoon but did not give any details.

Bill Voloch, interim president of the medical center, told The Denver Post newspaper that Bale spent about 2.5 hours at the hospital, where he met with five people still being treated for their injuries. Two others victims came from a different facility to meet Bale, Voloch said.

A picture of Bale posing in the hospital next to a young man, identified by the Denver Post as victim Carey Rottman, was posted on the newspaper's website and on Twitter.

A spokeswoman for the actor was not immediately available to comment or provide further details.

Bale also met with doctors, police, paramedics and other first responders to the massacre that resulted when a gunman burst into a movie theater in Aurora, a suburb of Denver, and opened fire on the audience at a midnight screening of "The Dark Knight Rises," killing 12 people and injuring 58 more.

Bale also spent time with Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper, the Denver Post reported.

From other sources I've seen online, he's doing this of his own accord, and without interaction from any of the companies involved in the movie.

And THAT is how you be a class act.

[Jim Raynor]

I saw a picture of him with a young man who had been shot in the leg. Good to see that Bale raised his spirits.

Now on the other hand, that suit against the WB is the most transparent and tasteless cash grab I can remember seeing recently. The man's friend died just a few days ago and he's thinking about how to milk a big company for money.

[Broomstick]

You said that he is "undeniably" a genius. You don't think this is completely overreacting in the OTHER direction? You seem to be going through great pains to portray him as a trouble genius, when all the evidence seems to point to him being a good student that was also batshit insane. That is a far cry from being an undeniable genius. In my opinion.

As you noted, we may simply disagree here, it's not like either of us has access to any meaningful record or test result. And I note your cynacism regarding acadamia. However, I have spent time outside of the university system and it's been my experience that most people are dumb as a box of rocks and it's a wonder they can operate their eyeballs and chew gum at the same time. The average person you associate with is almost certainly smarter than the average considered globally so your yardstick may be calibrated differently. That doesn't mean there are no dumb students where you are, just that the median smarts are higher where you live.

IF Holmes is suffering from one of the "break with reality" forms of mental illness (the term schizophrenia gets thrown around a lot but it's not the only one) then being able to carry out a plan over the course of months, one that requires some attention to detail, is indicative that he's not the run of the mill psycho. He not only obtained guns and ammunition he apparently made his own tear-gas bomb, and rigged his apartment with 30+ IED's that required professionals several days to render harmless and did it on his first try. That's also a little unusual. Now, none of the above are unprecedented, but those capabilities are usually associated with smart rather than stupid or careless.

Or he could be just a really, really obsessed guy of normal intelligence with unusual self-discipline who uses brute force study and willpower to achieve through hard labor what would come easily to someone of greater inherent smarts.

Basically, I think we're looking at the same set of data and drawing opposite conclusions which, under the circumstances, isn't that surprising. I'm tending err on the side of "he's smart" and you're tending to err on the side of "he's average".

Of course, he may not be mentally ill at all, just a bad, nasty person.

Do you have a source for NIH paying his tuition? I haven't seen any source saying that (though, admittedly, I am not following this all too closely).

WGN news broadcast. I tried to follow up with on-line text reports but it's scanty and the way it's been presented it's a bit ambiguous if it's direct from NIH or via the school. Which is the media for you, they're rushing to get this out and fact-checking is, apparently, no longer a regular part of journalism. It seems clear that there was some source of funding at least originating form the NIH. Since you're an academic if you say it's more typical for the funds to be funneled via the school then I'll certainly bow to your greater knowledge of the environment unless something definitive proves a different manner of granting the money.

Enrollment in a doctorate level program in neuroscience after being selected from among other such students as being someone anticipated to make significant contributions to the field. And probably a few others, but that's the main point, to train outstanding future scientists. Not all doctorate candidates in the field get this, so he must have stood out from among even that select group.

Are you sure this is why he got the stipend? The NIH hand out stipends to thousands of students for a variety of reasons. Hell, you can get a stipend like that just by knowing the right person.

Well, yes, nepotism, bribery, and sucking cock can probably get you places, too. I'm aware that academia has a certain level of corruption in it. However, all sources I have heard or seen that has mentioned the stipend have also claimed it was reserved for a graduate student in neuroscience. He supposedly had it due to his chosen course of study and beat out several other people for it. Given he seems a bit lacking in social/political skills I'm assuming he won on some sort of actual merit basis and not due to social manipulation of the system.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Here's a set of pictures of Christian Bale and his wife visiting an impromptu memorial that was set up for the victims.

There's a lot of pain on his face, from what I've seen on reddit (a nurse who works at the hospital posted) he feels partly responsible for what happened and he's trying to keep it together.

[wautd]

I'm wondering if its political cowardice or simply Obama/Romney sucking gun lobby cock for being deafeningly silent on gun control.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think any politician trying to use this tragedy for political ends before the bodies are even in the ground is going to reap a shitstorm of negative public backlash the likes of which could destroy a presidential campaign.

[weemadando]

Also this

http://thismodernworld.com/archives/7175

[SirNitram]

I think any politician trying to use this tragedy for political ends before the bodies are even in the ground is going to reap a shitstorm of negative public backlash the likes of which could destroy a presidential campaign.

Because shutting down all conversations about how you prevent such tragedies is not, at all, political to advance and ensure the dominance of the gun lobby.[/SARCASM]

[CaptainChewbacca]

I didn't say it should shut down the conversations forever, but is a WEEK too much to ask for out of respect for the dead?

[SirNitram]

I didn't say it should shut down the conversations forever, but is a WEEK too much to ask for out of respect for the dead?

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were arbiter of when it's appropriate to talk about subjects. We certainly didn't get to wait that long when it was, say, a passenger jet as the weapon. Or a car bomb. What, are guns special?

The whole 'Don't politicize the issue' is served up by those with financial incentive to keep the sluice gates open, and even people who should know better grab hold with whatever excuse because, well, gun control bad.

[Gandalf]

I think any politician trying to use this tragedy for political ends before the bodies are even in the ground is going to reap a shitstorm of negative public backlash the likes of which could destroy a presidential campaign.

What constitutes a political end?

[Broomstick]

I'm wondering if its political cowardice or simply Obama/Romney sucking gun lobby cock for being deafeningly silent on gun control.

Or maybe neither of those candidates have any intention of imposing any more restrictions on guns than already exist. Both are on record as supporting the right of the individual to bear arms. Obama is the one who signed off on allowing guns in national parks and hasn't kept even one campaign promise in regards to gun control, neither closing the gun-show background check loophole nor renewing the assault weapon ban. Romney is a member of the NRA and has stated we need to enforce existing laws rather than add more.

So.... what, exactly, do you expect either of them to say? "Gee, sorry this guy is a murdering nutcase but I still support the Second Amendment and individual gun ownership"? The two have essentially the same position.

[Aaron MkII]

Its political suicide anyway. Gun sales shot up after Obama was elected and the extreme pro gun folks look for any reason to ham him up as an anti.

But hey, even if you had Canada's system, it would have done nothing. No criminal record, and being on meds doesn't disqualify you. I've got PTSD and have a dozen guns.

So gun control as currently imagined is pretty worthless for this. Two of our shooters were legal owners.

People should be campaigning for better mental health care and removing the stigma of "hey I need help"

[Mr. Coffee]

Probably to soon, but the best joke I've heard so far about this...

I was going to see The Dark Knight Rises on opening night, but I figured I'd wait for the crowds to die down first.

Yeah, I'm going to hell for that one.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Gun control would have done nothing, exactly like Aaron says. The guy could have pulled this off in Canada, he'd have just had to throw bombs as well as fire a shotgun to cause that many fatalities. Strangely, when the Bath School Disaster happened, nobody tried to go around banning TNT from common public access for decades, and yet the whole time there was not a rash of schools blowing up due to madmen. The simple fact is that this is very statistically unlikely to happen, and is also completely impossible to permit. The guy would have just Timothy McVeighed if there were no guns, and if there were more restrictions, he would have still qualified for them, because he'd never done anything wrong before.

[Pendleton]

Didn't see this posted, but seems relevant given how gun control or social excesses are often in the spotlight after such an event.

[Aaron MkII]

Wasn't there an article several years ago on these killings that stated a lot of it is notoriety and that by simply not obsessing over it on the news that the risk of further rampages could be reduced?

Anyone else remember that?

[Sephirius]

Wasn't there an article several years ago on these killings that stated a lot of it is notoriety and that by simply not obsessing over it on the news that the risk of further rampages could be reduced?

Anyone else remember that?