10 dead, 35+ wounded at Batman premiere shooting

[Pendleton]

I actually posted that on page one, but yes, that does sum it up.

[Sea Skimmer]

Gun control would have done nothing, exactly like Aaron says. The guy could have pulled this off in Canada, he'd have just had to throw bombs as well as fire a shotgun to cause that many fatalities. Strangely, when the Bath School Disaster happened, nobody tried to go around banning TNT from common public access for decades, and yet the whole time there was not a rash of schools blowing up due to madmen. The simple fact is that this is very statistically unlikely to happen, and is also completely impossible to permit. The guy would have just Timothy McVeighed if there were no guns, and if there were more restrictions, he would have still qualified for them, because he'd never done anything wrong before.

Yeah, even if we had for example introduced the various proposals for limiting gun sales to one gun of any type per month, which is further then most people even want, it wouldn't have stopped him since he bought his weapons over several months in the first place. It also seems his Chinese made high capacity magazine jammed, which is pretty common in AR-15s anyway, and that may be the main reason a lot more people didn't die, though police have yet to release any estimate of the number of rounds fired. It might have been worse if he'd come with multiple box magazines and practiced quick reloads. As it was that nut at Virginia tech mostly had ten round magazines for his handguns, compatible with the magazine limitations many pro gun control types want, and yet fired over 170 rounds. He also also had time to shoot almost every single person he killed in the head, and shot every single one multiple times since he of course faced zero armed opposition.

Now meanwhile, I wonder how many people heard about that single vehicle accident in Texas a day or two after this shooting in which 11 people died, because 23 people were riding in the same pickup truck and it crashed into a tree at high speed. Do we ban trees near roads, pickup trucks, or mandate 25mph speed governors?

[His Divine Shadow]

I can't really see anything in our laws here in Finland and Sweden (I am very familiar with both) either that would have stopped this guy either since he didn't have any record or exhibited any tendencies that anyone could realistically have picked up on prior to this.

Heck even with those tendencies and even being reported to the Police and being taken in for an interview, that wasn't enough for the 2nd shooter in Finland. So we just padded our gun laws with more useless red tape that just adds more hoops to jump through as well as costing 2x more than it used to to get a permit. I honestly can't see anything in our laws today that will stop another shooter and I don't know what could.

Restricted mags is hilarious example of people who have no experience in this field and probably only spent 5 minutes, at most, coming up with the idea. I buy 10 round mags from america for the cheaper price and I make them into full capacity mags (FYI it's legal here), doesn't take long or require specialized tools, a dremel is useful.

[Sea Skimmer]

We are talking about the same people who thought banning pistol grips, flash suppressors and bayonet lugs made sense, compared to that a 10 round limit makes at least some sense. Best part is according the Brady Campaign of ignorant stupidity California ranks highest on gun control in the nation, 81 out of 100, including having that ban on evil bayonets ect... on new guns, while its been one of the worst states in the US for firearms murders for many years. Meanwhile Utah scores an actual 0 (on paper you could get -4 as the worst score but nobody is under 0) and has 1/4th the firearms murder of California. Vermont has a 6 and yet has an actual 1/10th the firearms murder rate of California. Though I should note, it also has a very low percentage of all murders being committed with firearms, about 29% compared to a 67.5% national average for 2010, so this isn't completely a case of fewer people being killed. For whatever reason those Vermont folks seem to be trying to prove that yes, Americans will murder people with other stuff if they don't use guns. They don't require a conceal carry permit at all either, one of few states this is true of.

[PeZook]

I always wondered how banning specific (mostly cosmetic) features on guns was supposed to help prevent gun violence. Just how many people were murdered with a gun-mounted bayonet...ever?

[Sea Skimmer]

Never heard of one past the French revolution, though I would imagine they've happened at least a few times in the 20th century. If you want even more unlikely cause of murder, something else on the ban list was ability to accept a grenade launcher, which as far as I can tell was specifically aimed at SKS rifles, since a lot of SKSs had the ability to take a rifle grenade launcher and had a bayonet or lugs (you had to have two banned features to ban the gun, so you can do a drive by with a rifle grenade or a bayonet but not both). The idea was this was supposed to lead to the extinction of evil military looking guns, it had no other logic.

The best part was, they also included in the 94 a federal law a short list of 19 specifically banned guns, by... name. This most famously led the TEC-9 to be renamed the AB-10 with a few minor modifications, mainly an extended magazine housing as it was otherwise legal even under the attempt to make almost all submachine guns illegal with the law. Actually scratch that, the best part was when Department of Justice while still under Bill Clinton openly stated that they thought the law was useless and ineffective. California meanwhile has had a stricter 'ban' in effect since 1989. Sure has done them good.

[Beowulf]

The CA AW ban in '89 was a by name list. It was augmented in '99 with the feature based ban. Funnily enough, this feature based ban also had the side effect of banning Olympic-style target pistols. And I can think of a way to absolutely prevent mass murders from happening. But, it involves in the end eating steaks through a straw. Yeah, can't even trust people with a spoon, because they could break it, turn it into a shiv, and stab you to death with it.

[Aaron MkII]

I can't really see anything in our laws here in Finland and Sweden (I am very familiar with both) either that would have stopped this guy either since he didn't have any record or exhibited any tendencies that anyone could realistically have picked up on prior to this.

Heck even with those tendencies and even being reported to the Police and being taken in for an interview, that wasn't enough for the 2nd shooter in Finland. So we just padded our gun laws with more useless red tape that just adds more hoops to jump through as well as costing 2x more than it used to to get a permit. I honestly can't see anything in our laws today that will stop another shooter and I don't know what could.

Restricted mags is hilarious example of people who have no experience in this field and probably only spent 5 minutes, at most, coming up with the idea. I buy 10 round mags from america for the cheaper price and I make them into full capacity mags (FYI it's legal here), doesn't take long or require specialized tools, a dremel is useful.

I thought they weren't allowed to export mags and stuff under the ITAR bullshit. Or do they just need a permit?

But anyways, it would take maybe an hour to restore our sks's to full capacity. One of them is just limited by a fucking rubber plug that's rivited in. Which is what you get when you let morons make laws in the wake of a massacre.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's why I buy the ten rounders instead of normal ones. They are OK.

[Aaron MkII]

Oh brilliant, thanks. I'm gonna see if I can do that with glock mags for my sub 2000, 70$ a pop here.

[eion]

Now meanwhile, I wonder how many people heard about that single vehicle accident in Texas a day or two after this shooting in which 11 people died, because 23 people were riding in the same pickup truck and it crashed into a tree at high speed. Do we ban trees near roads, pickup trucks, or mandate 25mph speed governors?

I would, however, hope it's against the law for 23 people to ride in a vehicle with at most 5 or 6 seatbelts. A quick scan of the laws in texas show that the laws regarding riding in truck beds to be rather complicated, surprisingly. Perhaps it's a reasonable restriction to have a one passanger, one seatbelt law, or is that an unfair infringment of our freedom to die in a violent manner?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The point at which you put 23 people into a single pickup is very similar to the point where building a car bomb sounds like a good idea, so it's much too late by then to stop it from happening. Believe me, I know; I lived in a rural area. I have actually been in the back of a pickup truck before as a kid, though while driving at 10mph on a gravel road.

Anyway, the easiest thing to do is teach basic firearms safety to high schoolers to prevent accidents as a mandatory part of the curriculum, institute a full background check system, and I'd suggest a limit of three purchases a month. I've actually bought more than one gun in a month; a matched set of 19th century revolvers as a wedding present. It would be useless and retarded to implement a one-gun ban when you can acquire your shotgun and assault rifle on July 31st and August 1st and then commit a massacre on August 2nd. A more sensible thing would be, like -- 3 guns a month maximum, 24 guns a year maximum; for the purposes of avoiding arms trafficking. Also set it up so that the control mechanism is that the instant background check (extended to gun shows), returns with a "DENY SALE WITHOUT PREJUDICE: OVER LIMIT UNTIL XYZ". Allow for someone to circumvent this by getting a new license equivalent to a C&R, "personal collector license" which allows unlimited transactions after a more thorough background check.

The high capacity magazine ban is retarded. Give me a Lee-Enfield carbine with stripper clips and the same year or so this guy has been plotting the attack in, and I could put thirty unaimed rounds downrange in a minute. Possibly substantially more. I've practiced firing speed shooting and reloading in bolt-action rifles before and it is not hard with even one with a stripper clip reloading and fixed magazine like that, let alone modern detachable magazines. The record is 37 aimed shots in a minute with a bolt-action rifle, versus the 60 or so practical for a semi-automatic. For example I have no doubt whatsoever that Breivik could have committed Utoya with a Lee-Enfield or Mauser, since it was relatively open and there were plenty of pauses to reload. Ironically the terrible reload mechanism on a Norwegian Krag might have inhibited him some, though. I have no doubt sooner or later a massacre will happen in a super-ban state like Australia in this fashion and then they'll flip out and try literally banning guns entirely.

[Aaron MkII]

Well it helps that the Enfield was one of the fastest actions ever designed

But as the fellow last Page posted, we're going about this the wrong way as a society. But as no one wants to address our shit show of attitudes towards mental health, I guess we're stuck endlessly chasing our tails.

[Broomstick]

All the background checks in the world won't stop someone who has never committed an infraction before, and it won't catch someone with a recent psychotic break who has yet to seek (or be forced into) treatment.

You're never going to catch every bad guy before he commits a massacre, especially if the mass killing is his first crime as is the case with Mr. Holmes here. Even if you could eliminate guns entirely the risk is still there from people adapting 500 pounds of common agricultural chemicals and fuel into a bomb or scavenging radioactive materials from discarded smoke alarms or combining common and easily obtained chemicals into agents of mayhem.

I'm not even convinced better mental health treatment would eliminate it, because we may not catch the mental problem until after something bad has occurred as far as acting out behavior.

Although if we were more sane about mental health we wouldn't subject people to training or educational programs that put them under sufficient stress as to cause them to snap, or have a better mechanism for catching those that are near breaking, or both.

[Sea Skimmer]

I would, however, hope it's against the law for 23 people to ride in a vehicle with at most 5 or 6 seatbelts. A quick scan of the laws in texas show that the laws regarding riding in truck beds to be rather complicated, surprisingly. Perhaps it's a reasonable restriction to have a one passanger, one seatbelt law, or is that an unfair infringment of our freedom to die in a violent manner?

Its typically complicated in all states, because they want to leave it open for piles of farm workers to be driven around the fields at low speed when this may include short trips on public roads, like crossing from one field to another. In such situations it is also typically legal for unlicensed children to drive for whatever sense that makes. Sadly in the case, the death toll has now rise to 14 as several of the injured have died, and they are all suspected illegal immigrants + smuggler which is why the vehicle was moving fast and so heavily loaded on a paved road. But the real point was, a set of laws, speed limits and seatbelts, both readily enforceable, didn't stop this from happening. But nobody cared to anything like the same degree as a shooting in Colorado because its just another totally preventable accident. Basically the same point Wong made earlier, but with a vehicle accident that actually killed the same, roughly, number of people as the very massacre.