Justified action or being an asshole? Which is it?

[GeneralPlankton]

Just thought I'd start up a discussion on animal ethics, more specifically pertaining to the capture of a wild animal.

Here is the first link, and here is the other.

Basically he uses a glue trap for mice, but instead of killing them to put them out of their misery, he throws them in the trash while they're still alive. Like some kind of inanimate object. With no remorse at all. He's gotten some abusive responses, but animal cruelty can be an emotional subject for some people so I am not surprised.

I'm not sure if any of you have used them before, but animals stuck on them pretty much mutilate themselves in order to escape, or starve to death. I've seen that happen with rodents, birds and reptiles - not a pretty sight. I think it's sick on a lot of levels, and I was just wondering what you people thought about this guy's behaviour?

[Singular Intellect]

I'm not against killing pests amd removing them from our own territory. I expect no less from other creatures when asserting dominance over their territory.

The additional criteria I fully expect from human action in this regard is humanely removing/killing when really necessary. Not doing so establishes a person as morally inferior to others who do so, especially given the level of power we enjoy over other life on this planet.

Not to be too nerdy about it, but spiderman quote does apply: "With great power comes great responsibility". And we do have great power over other animal life.

[Sarevok]

How is this any different from shark finning ? I find it equally morally reprehensible.

[Broomstick]

Sometimes you have to eliminate vermin, but there's no reason beyond sadism to make even vermin suffer unnecessarily. If you use glue traps in the manner described in the OP you're an asshole.

[Skgoa]

Yeah, there is no shortage of traps that either kill the mice or catch it unharmed. He doens't get any advantage by being randomly cruel.

[Flagg]

How is this any different from shark finning ? I find it equally morally reprehensible.

You don't usually find sharks in your house spreading disease.

The method the guy uses to remove the pests is absolutely horrid, though.

[Tsyroc]

They've used those sort of traps at the hospital I work at. I think part of the reasoning is that they are cheap, don't contain any poisons and don't have to constantly be reset like some wire traps. They also fit neatly behind refrigerators and cabinets. I'm fairly certain that the people responsible for the traps were doing just what the guy in the OT was doing. Just tossing the whole trap in the garbage with the still live mouse and all.

One mouse I saw on one of these traps was so frightened, and stuck, that it had dislocated one of its forelimbs trying to get loose. By the time I saw it the mouse's whole body was stuck in the glue as if someone had smooshed it down onto the card.

On another occasion I found one where the mouse wasn't stuck too badly so I took the trap outside and used some mineral oil to get the glue to release the mouse. The mouse looked a little greasy but otherwise okay when it took off.

[Covenant]

I've had to deal with pernicious and extremely aggressive rodent invasions before, so I can understand how angry you get at these brainless little shit factories, and after killing hundreds of them you eventually just stop caring. I don't understand this outrage, but I'm glad there's people who aren't so callous, and thank them for inventing better mousetraps than the snap traps that don't work and the glue traps that do but scare the mice literally shitless before they die.

I wish there was a "scaremouse" that worked effectively, otherwise I'm going to have to start putting those wooden owls inside my parent's kitchen. My parent's place, when I was a kid, would get them every winter because it would get really cold out here and the house had an attached garage that operated as a foothold for them. The mice would be terrible, chewing through parts of the wall and shitting all over everything, trying to find their way into the part of the house with the food and when they did they'd jump up into the fruit baskets, gnaw through anything, and leave mouse droppings all over the counter and food prep areas and in the silverware and the tupperware (where they liked to sit and eat undisturbed).

It was a grotesque affair and it happened every year like clockwork. We'd have people come by, check the foundation, block the dryer vent again with a new vent screen, and leave with a clean bill of health. And then not soon thereafter I'd be drafted back into mouse patrol. My mom was too terrified to even engage in rodent restriction, and my dad and brothers lacked the stomach to do anything that could hurt the mice, so they'd dither about until it got so bad that I'd be asked to do it. It was the same with the ants that came in the summer, it was me or nobody until the problem got so bad that Mom was in tears and the problem had to go into full nuclear solution--which was usually just me anyway.

To this end, I usually resorted to glue traps to restrict mouse access through areas I could not put a different trap. I wasn't old enough to personally pay for a carpenter to put in mouse-proof wooden barricades through the ceiling voids, but I had monitored their movements through the house using the glue traps and tracking mouse pellet appearances. There was no way for me to use a snap trap in those areas, and a catch-and-release trap would make no sense. The problem isn't that there is one rodent running around--when a chipmunk got trapped indoors I just helped show him the way out and no harm, no foul. The problem with finding one mouse in my parents house was that it meant I'd be catching mice for the next two or three months, sometimes having to dispose of 20 of the blasted things.

Glue traps are very effective, which is important for stopping the breeding cycle. Snap traps, for some reason, scare off the mice and even though I'd lay them around I'd almost never catch a damn thing. Faced with catching them quickly and effectively or not catching them at all so they can give my poor bulldog biting ticks and fleas again, I'd go with the glue traps, and rodent distress be damned. That makes me a pretty unfeeling asshole to these goddamned stupid mice, but thankfully there are better options than glue traps followed up by a hammer to the mouse's head. The best thing I've found are those newish traps that are shaped like a quarter of a wheel of cheese, with a red lever inside that will quickly kill the mouse when it goes in, without spooking it the way a big metal rat-trap does.

Beyond that, my girlfriend's cats managed to catch and eliminate a mouse nearly instantly after it snuck into my rented townhouse during a very very brief time when I left a window open. When I got back the grey Maine Coon crossbreed was lounging there quite contentedly in a half-moon around a very dead mouse on the carpet. I just wish there was some way to communicate to the mice my desire for them not to come inside. The yard swarms with rodents of all kinds, ground-squirrels and badgers and normal squirrels and even a chunky ol' groundhog. I'm quite content to feed the fuzzies that live outdoors and will put out corn and such for them when it gets dry and brutal like it has been recently. I let them live in this gorgeous, bountiful garden, and the chipmunks are free to poach a tomato or two. I grow things the rabbits like to eat so they'll avoid the garden, and fence in the rest. Hell, when a family of god-damned Raccoons invaded the attic I'd be out there several times a day so in case they wandered into the cage trap they wouldn't get overheated in the sun. Mice are the one critter that refuse my generous offers and will content themselves with nothing other than the very best of my food and luxuries and repay me with a sick, unhappy puppy and shit all over my forks and knives.

I'd say that the feelings of the mice are pretty low down on my list of priorities after suffering through that every year for quite a while, but when a single mouse is all you have, don't use the glue traps--just use a snap or catch trap. If mice were smart enough to stay outdoors they'd be able to eat the birdseed like the squirrels do. Instead they seem dead set on suicide-by-cat and other annoying things.

[Covenant]

TLDR version:

To the mice, I am a benevolent god and my one commandment is this: Stay the fuck out of my house and stop shitting all over my silverware, and you are free to live in the yard and eat a tomato or two and gorge yourself on birdseed.

And to the people, I offer the advice of prevention. Mice won't come in if they can't, and saving yourself the headache of a mouse infestation by doing the appropriate cleaning and hole-plugging will also save you from a variety of other problems and infestations. If you can't do this (maybe it's not entirely your property etc) then having a good feline mouser will keep the mice from taking up residence and breeding, which will minimize the harm and through some strained ethical calculus you can claim it as a natural act and not a deliberate method of assassinating mice with your pet tigers.

I understand how the guy being discussed feels, but the easy access to much more effective kill traps makes mouse control easier and ethical as well. I wouldn't give much water to people asking me to catch-and-release an actual house mouse. It's not like the thing is going to enjoy being separated from it's social group and thrown screaming into the living hell of predatory nights that is a forest preserve.

[Junghalli]

I'd say if you have to kill animals all else being equal it's better to do it in a way that minimizes their suffering, under general "don't be a dick" principles.

[Solauren]

I only use glue-traps in areas normal wire traps are not practical, or in areas where you can't keep other animals out of.

I've never caught a mouse with one, but I'd like to think I'd put the bugger out of it's misery in as humane a way as possible.
Unfortunately, unless you let the mouse go a good distance away, they will remember where they got in, and return.

[Covenant]

Unfortunately, unless you let the mouse go a good distance away, they will remember where they got in, and return.

And it's worse than that. Mice ARE social creatures, so the idea that flinging Joe the Mouse out into the woods by himself where he can "live like he's supposed to" is pretty much just fingers-in-ears crazy talk. Joe the Mouse is going to wonder where he is and where Martha the Mouse is and why it's so cold and so lonely and devoid of food.

Gotta remember, the house mouse and the pet mouse are nearly the same critters, the pet mouse is just domesticated. Feral mice are destructive little asshats terrified of everything, but they're social and they do not live outside well, and things like rats will actually go after and kill them on principle. Other predators will eat them too, and house mice do not really do well at making their own shelters, so cold and heat are also hard on them. House mice are poor at competing with other wildlife, such as other mice, and don't like the temperature swaps. Unlike chipmunks or wood mice they are not adapted for living away from human settlement.

If you want to know what it's natural environment is, well guess what, it's your goddamn walls, or under your porch, or in your garage or basement. I had to read an awful lot about these little pests to better evict them from my houses, but really, they're not wonderful little fuzzy creatures on a misguided adventure, they're our long-term evolutionary companions, like rats and house spiders. Either accept them or prevent them or kill them but you can't catch and release 'em.

[GeneralPlankton]

That guy is starting to make excuses for his actions, then complains about "good manners". Doesn't this guy understand that the torture of an animal isn't a good thing, and is a touchy subject for a lot of people? IMO he has no reason to complain about the good manners of people pointing the finger at him, when he casually allows a mammal to mutilate itself in his own garbage bin while it's attached to a sheet of plastic. People like that really do shit me.

I understand how the guy being discussed feels

Covenant, I can understand your misgivings with mice, but that guy does take it too far. You make perfectly valid points, however, he comes across as a complete... well, asshole. No, actually worse than that. Some kind of sociopath, or sadist.

[Covenant]

He absolutely does come across as a self-congratulating villain, especially when attacking back at the people who are outraged at the treatment of the mice. Let's be clear though, I understand how he feels but he's gone from being a guy sick of mice to a guy who revels in the slaughter, that's the flip, and casual cruelty to animals (even pest species) shouldn't be done with a grin. That's a sign of getting happy at the wrong kind of stuff. I've done awful stuff to mice, but it was only because all efforts to prevent entry failed--but still, that shouldn't exonerate me. I make some good points, but the only SERIOUS difference between him and I with regard to pest removal is that I don't enjoy killing mice and I'm not getting all "Dern tree-hugging hippies!" on people who would rather I capture and release mice. I'm not that much better just because I'm explaining WHY my heart has grown black and cold with regard to the pain and suffering of these critters.

Mostly I just wanted to stem the tide (or even dilute it a little) of rage-born comments defending the sanctity of mouse life. I think a lot of the outrage is from people who have not had to deal with the dirty job of repeated mouse removal and hold a more romantic opinion about mouse life (thinking that they're wild animals just looking for a warm place to stay, and not domestic parasites that have been with us as traveling companions since the early days) and calling for his head is way extreme. But it's good to have a discussion about what we as thinking creatures SHOULD do about species that have no regard for our safety, do not respect limits, and are destructive and invasive parts of our natural human ecoscape. These mice have no place outside of our homes, and inside our homes they are dangerous and destructive. We either need to accept the deliberate, repeated, unwavering death of these mice at our hands (directly or indirectly, a cat is an indirect weapon as specific as a glue trap, and little more kind) or throw up our hands and let them infest your walls and eat your babies. You gotta find an ethical balancing point with a few guidelines about what's an acceptable level of malice to hold for other living creatures. I think most of the people here have been saying that exact thing, but I hadn't seen anyone give a Mea Culpa about their own rodent genocides yet so I wanted to own up. I also sometimes get tired of pretending I care about every mouse or ant or other random thing I'm tasked with removing from my house. Hell, nobody seems to want me to leave the spiders around my place, despite the fact they and I seem to be on the same wavelength.

I'm glad kind hearts to still exist, my GF is one of 'em, but comments like "Moral Inferiority" sound mean-spirited and judgmental not only towards this prick, but other pricks like myself, so I wanted to flesh out the moral and ethical calculus of rodent removal a bit before we go trumpeting the dignity of critters that destroy my house, eat my fruit, rip out my insulation, and heap disease and hantavirus-ridden shit on my plates and silverware after making my happy bulldog unhappy with fleas.

One of the big things people will need to come to grips with in the future, which seems to be a nascent thing right now but emerging, is to what degree we really should care about something like a mouse. The ethics of life are a complex thing. Vegetarians, for example, make some calculations already. My GF, who will go to the point of tears if a creature is in distress, will still eat fish. I'm not sure why or how that ethically squares, but that's something she's decided. Vegans and other non-harm whatever advocates are making bigger and biggear appearences in the most important of all places--supermarkets. Hell, I found this thing from a company called "Field Roast" that tasted and felt nearly exactly like a stuffed turkey breast and it was amazing. I don't mind cow slaughter, but if stuff like that was available (and not for 8 dollars a pound) then a lot of consciences might win out on the dinner plate.

Mouse invasions will have to be placed alongside that and things like deer cullings in a larger discussion about human to animal ethical behavior, and if we owe animals a greater degree of ethical treatment than they would receive in the wild (I assume most people would say that we're probably able to do that) but to what degree do we care about individual things like mice or ants or whatever. And at what level is it okay to be casually disregarding to things like removing ants via poisoned food (like those little sap traps that poison the Queens) but not about mammals like rodents, and if that's mammalian favoritism. I don't think anyone would say it's okay to be cruel to a lizard or amphibian.

This may or may not coincide with a better theory of intelligence but it's probably going to be a messy debate when it happens, with a lot of people being called Hitlers.

[Broomstick]

To be honest, at my house we've moved to poison bait for the mice. It's the ONLY thing that seems to have ended the plague. Enough got by all the various other traps that some could breed and it never ended - every 4-5 weeks there was a burst of baby mice, many of which we'd catch along with an adult or two, then the cycle started all over again. We did everything we were supposed to - ALL food in mouseproof containers, elimination of nesting sites, blocking holes, etc. but it's an old building with many nooks and cracks and a couple of vacant units where we think they'd also camp out. We'd get them with snap traps. We used glue traps a few times but between the self-injuring of trapped mice and the unpleasant task of having to administer mercy killings we went back to snaps which, at least, usually killed them quick. I stepped on one hiding under a rug. My spouse occasionally caught them live with an empty pickle jar (then dispatched them). My parrots have killed a few over the years.

Finally we tried poison. We don't particularly like it, but it's only since that we haven't been finding mouse nests, mouse shit, and listening to mice in the walls in the dark of the night. If we find one that's been poisoned and is dying we put it out of its misery quickly. Apparently, it is the only thing that kills them faster than they can breed.

And yes, I think attitude does make a difference. We don't enjoy killing. If we could find a more merciful alternative or a non-lethal way to do the job we would. Mr. Asshole, however, enjoys the suffering. Would he switch to a more ethical alternative if he could? Or would he continue the torture? That makes a difference in my book.

[aieeegrunt]

Mice, along with mosquitos and house flies are one of the few species I would cheerfully render extinct if I could. They have NO redeeming features or uses and seem to exist solely to torment mankind

[GeneralPlankton]

Mice, along with mosquitos and house flies are one of the few species I would cheerfully render extinct if I could. They have NO redeeming features or uses and seem to exist solely to torment mankind

Great. Thanks to your stupidity, the food chain will collapse, cures and remedies for various medical conditions will be set back, and my niece would be most upset to lose a much loved pet. Your post has no redeeming featurues or uses.

[Korto]

Yeah, the guy's an arsehole, but an unthinking one in my opinion, not malicious. Of course, now, he's gone all defensive...
It's really not all that much trouble to hit them with a brick or something, or if you don't want the mess (or in my case, a brick would mean having to release the thing from the trap, which poses too much risk of it escaping), tossing it in a bucket of water with something over the top to push it down under the surface (heavy saucepan lid with an air-hole in it). They panic and die in less than a minute.
There's my suggestion for glue traps. Into a bucket of water, and then the bin. It's not perfect, but it's practical, and a lot more humane than binning them alive.

A non-toxic mouse "poison" suggested by an Australian author (Jackie French) is equal parts flour, icing sugar, and plaster of Paris. I've never used it however as my wife feels it's too cruel (and the same goes for other poisons).

[GeneralPlankton]

He doesn't seem to be a fan of yours, Broomstick. Wow, now he's asking the question "why shouldn't they be considered trash"...... that is after he claims he's not heartless.... words fail me.

[Broomstick]

They become trash AFTER they're dead. Not before.

[InnerBrat]

I'm not going to click the link- reading this thread itself is traumatic enough. But it sometimes seems to me that there are levels of empathy that you can't simply argue a person to. Or rather, I can't, because I start with the basic common assumption that living beings deserve respect, and sentient beings deserve compassion.

I'm not even talking about the pest factor, because that's inarguable. But how do you get from suffocating them in the trash to humane disposal?

Once someone decides that a mouse is a thing that can be treated as a thing and not a being, where do you find the common ground, without it becoming a shouting match of "THEY ARE THINGS!" "NO, THEY'RE NOT!"

Genuine question. IS there a way of convincing someone who thinks this way?

[Simon_Jester]

Dunno. If they were a lot like me, you'd start by poking at their decision about where to draw the line between 'thing' and 'not just a thing?' Why is a mouse 'just a thing' and a dog not? Or... (et cetera)

They're probably not much like me.

[Purple]

I'm not going to click the link- reading this thread itself is traumatic enough. But it sometimes seems to me that there are levels of empathy that you can't simply argue a person to. Or rather, I can't, because I start with the basic common assumption that living beings deserve respect, and sentient beings deserve compassion.

I'm not even talking about the pest factor, because that's inarguable. But how do you get from suffocating them in the trash to humane disposal?

Once someone decides that a mouse is a thing that can be treated as a thing and not a being, where do you find the common ground, without it becoming a shouting match of "THEY ARE THINGS!" "NO, THEY'RE NOT!"

Genuine question. IS there a way of convincing someone who thinks this way?

To play devils advocate for a moment. (because I enjoy it)

Assuming that there really is NO way of convincing people to think this way. As in, to accept that all living beings deserve respect by virtue of being alive. Under our assumption that would mean that said stance actually has no logical argument supporting it. And that the only reason why anyone would hold it is a) just because it feels right and b) because others tell me I should.

And that does beg the question. How would said stance hold up to a scientific minded neutral review. And if we would like the results we end up with.


On a similarly entertaining note. I have noticed a trend with people whom I drag into the discussion to throw them off balance that they indeed always fall back to "well it's just right" almost in the same way religious people always fall back to "well god is god so just accept it". And I would like to hear a rational argument supporting it for a change.

[InnerBrat]

To play devils advocate for a moment. (because I enjoy it)

Assuming that there really is NO way of convincing people to think this way. As in, to accept that all living beings deserve respect by virtue of being alive. Under our assumption that would mean that said stance actually has no logical argument supporting it. And that the only reason why anyone would hold it is a) just because it feels right and b) because others tell me I should.

And that does beg the question. How would said stance hold up to a scientific minded neutral review. And if we would like the results we end up with.

It strikes me that you appear to be using 'beg the question' correctly only by sheer coincidence of punctuation. While it it true that "this is right because it is right" is begging the question, did you in fact mean "raises?" /irrelevant pedantry

Are we working from the assumption that moral arguments are only valid if approached with a "scientific minded neutral review?" In which case, don't we rather need to define 'right' as something that can be demonstrated and possibly measured? How would you like to do this?

On a similarly entertaining note. I have noticed a trend with people whom I drag into the discussion to throw them off balance that they indeed always fall back to "well it's just right" almost in the same way religious people always fall back to "well god is god so just accept it". And I would like to hear a rational argument supporting it for a change.

Sorry, do you drag people into discussion to throw them off balance and entertain yourself, or to have a rational discussion about ethics? Because these are not mutually supportive aims in any one conversation.

[Purple]

It strikes me that you appear to be using 'beg the question' correctly only by sheer coincidence of punctuation. While it it true that "this is right because it is right" is begging the question, did you in fact mean "raises?" /irrelevant pedantry

What ever. lol

Are we working from the assumption that moral arguments are only valid if approached with a "scientific minded neutral review?" In which case, don't we rather need to define 'right' as something that can be demonstrated and possibly measured? How would you like to do this?

Well the purpose of this is to give it a try. So yea, let's assume that in order for something to be right you have to demonstrate a good reason why it is right that goes beyond that gut feeling we all get. If nothing else at least show where said gut feeling comes from in a way similar to what's been done in the other threads here (for example this one: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=155892) Althou what I would really want to see is a coherent argument as to WHY said stance should be held instead of it's opposite but WITHOUT touching on morality. In other words, a purely amoral argument.

To provide an example of what I mean. You could quite easily construct an amoral argument about why said stance should apply in human to human interactions. If anyone could go and kill/torture/do evil anyone else, society would fall apart. Society falling apart is bad for the survival of human kind. Ergo we have evolved to see murdering/torturing/being evil to other people as bad and also have a vested conscious interest in keeping it bad. We sacrifice our freedom to do evil to one another for the benefit of social stability that comes from doing so.

Sorry, do you drag people into discussion to throw them off balance and entertain yourself, or to have a rational discussion about ethics? Because these are not mutually supportive aims in any one conversation.

It's complicated. But let's just say that I do what I did here.

edit: spelling and some expansion