My encounter with the fundies today.(and excerpts from book)

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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fgalkin
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Post by fgalkin »

His proof for his claim that Jesus was a god.
First, consider his claim to be God was false. If it was false, then we have two, and only two alternatives. He either knew it was false, or he didn't know it was false. We will consider each one separately and examine the evidence.

WAS HE A LIAR?
If, when Jesus made his claims, he knew that he was not god, then he was lying and deliberately decieving his followers. But if he was a liar, then he was also a hypocrite because he told others to be honest, while he himself taught and lived a collossal lie. More than that, he was a demon, because he told others to trust him for their eternal destiny.[I knew you'd love that one. -fg]. If he couldn't back up his claims and knew it, then he was unspeakably evil. Last, he would also be a fool because it was his claims to being god that led to his crucifixion.


Many will say that Jesus was a good moral teacher. Let's be realistic. How could he be a great moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important point of his teaching-his own identity?
You would have to conclude logically that he was a deliberate liar. This view of Jesus, however, doesn't coincide with what we know of either of him or the results of his life and teachings. Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just.[rotflmao. –fg]

William Lecky, one of Great Britain’s most noted historians and a dedicated opponent of organized Christianity, writes “It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of man with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages…[snipped as this is a worthless appeal to authority bullshit. –fg]. The simple record of these three years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhorations of moralists”

Historian Phillip Schaff says: “This testimony, if not true, must be downright blasphemy or madness….[snip a page of theist bullshit, discussing why Jesus’ moral character would not allow him to lie. –fg]”


If Jesus wanted to get people to follow him and believe him as god, why did he go to the Jewish nation.? Why go as a Nazarene carpenter to a country so small in size and population and so thoroughly adhering to the undivided unity of god? Why not go to Egypt, or, even more, to Greece, where they believed in various gods and various manifestations of them?


Someone who lived as Jesus lived, taught as Jesus taught, and died as jesus died could not have been a liar. What other alternatives are there?


WAS HE A LUNATIC?
If it is inconcievable for Jesus to be a liar, then couldn’t he actually have thought himself to be god, but mistaken? After all, it’s possible to be both sincere and wrong. But we must remember that for someone to think himself god, especially in a fiercely monotheistic culture, and then tell others that their eternal destinies depended on believing in him, is no slight flight of fantasy, but the thoughts of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ such a person?


Someone who believes he is a god sounds like someone today believing he is Napoleon. He would be deluded and self-deceived, and probably he would be locked up so that he wouldn’t hurt himself or anyone else. Yet in Jesus we don’t observe the abnormalities and imbalance that usually go along with being deranged. His poise and composure would certainly be amazing if he were insane.


Noyes and Kolb, in a medical text, describe the schizophrenic as a person who is more autistic than realistic. The schizophrenic desires escape from the world of reality. Let’s face it, claiming to be godis certainly a retreat from reality.[note the text in question was published in 1958 It is obsolete. –fg]


In light of the other things we know about Jesus, it’s hard to imagine that he was mentally disturbed. Here is a man who spoke some of the most profound sayings ever recorded. His instructions liberated many individuals in mental bondage. [placed individuals in mental bondage is more like it. –fg]

[snip more appeal to authority (1.5 pages of bullshit!)].


Phillip Schaff resons: “Is such an intellect-clear as the sky, bracing as the mountain air, sharp and penetrating as a sword, thoroughly healthy and vigorous, always ready and always self-possessed-liable to a radical and most serious delusion concerning his own character and mission? Preposterous imagination!”
Have fun pointing out his errors. :twisted:

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

Well, it seems that most of it is based on the circular logic of proving something with something that hasn't been proven. Does he bring leaps in logic into the debate later in the book?
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Post by Utsanomiko »

So, since he's being sincere but is still wrong, does that make him a lunatic?

:D
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Post by fgalkin »

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Well, it seems that most of it is based on the circular logic of proving something with something that hasn't been proven. Does he bring leaps in logic into the debate later in the book?
Debate...later...in...book? :shock:

No, no, no, he spends the rest of the book trying to prove the credibility of his evidence. :roll:

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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fgalkin
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Post by fgalkin »

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:So, since he's being sincere but is still wrong, does that make him a lunatic?

:D
yes. :D

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Well, I'm satisfied.
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ArmorPierce
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Post by ArmorPierce »

hmm... his argument didn't really make much sense.
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Post by Captain Jack »

He failed to prove anything.
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Post by Durandal »

Wonder how he'll get around the whole Mithraism thing, considering that it was around way before Christianity and had ...

... a Messiah who was the son of God,
... who was born of a virgin,
... who had 12 followers,
... who died on a cross, and
... who was supposed to redeem humanity.
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Post by Setesh »

Of course he ignores the possibility that Jesus was both a liar and insane.
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Post by fgalkin »

Btw, here's the link to the website of the fundies that gave me this book.
http://www.eeinternational.org

Evangelism Explosion my ass. :roll:

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Last edited by fgalkin on 2003-03-11 08:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Captain Jack »

Thanks for the link. BTW the only thing that exploded was my brain.
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