Man accidentally shoots self (in the butt) in NV theatre

[Lancer]

Obligatory pre-newsbite one-liner:
You might say he was a little...butthurt.

YYYYEEEAAAAHHH!!!

SPARKS, Nev. (AP) — Police say a man accidentally shot himself in the buttocks at a Nevada movie theater during a showing of "The Bourne Legacy."
Police in Sparks, Nev., say the 56-year-old man's injuries are not life-threatening and no others were hurt.
Authorities say the man had a permit to carry a concealed firearm. The man told officers the gun fell from his pocket Tuesday night as he was adjusting himself in the seat and that it discharged when it dropped to the floor.
Authorities say the case will be sent to the city attorney for possible charges.
The incident comes less than a month after a shooting at a suburban Denver theater that left 12 dead and 58 injured.

[DarkArk]

The man told officers the gun fell from his pocket Tuesday night as he was adjusting himself in the seat and that it discharged when it dropped to the floor.

How does that even work? Speaking as a man who has only fired full-size guns, how does dropping a pistol cause it to go off?

[General Zod]

The man told officers the gun fell from his pocket Tuesday night as he was adjusting himself in the seat and that it discharged when it dropped to the floor.

How does that even work? Speaking as a man who has only fired full-size guns, how does dropping a pistol cause it to go off?

A cheap piece of shit gun that has the safety off? That'd be my guess.

[Formless]

The idiot was probably carrying "cocked and locked". In other words, one bullet already chambered and the hammer is cocked and ready to fire; then you put the safety on, and trust your life to a mechanical device. One which you never want to have fail. Because then you end up with a bullet in your ass, assuming you are lucky and no one else gets hurt. Or you could get a Darwin award by shooting your own bollocks off!

But hey, if the safety works you don't have to cock your gun when (if) you draw it, saving you all of a few seconds.

Basically what I'm saying is, the safety shouldn't be an issue. But only if you aren't a dumbass around guns.

[DarkArk]

In other words, one bullet already chambered and the hammer is cocked and ready to fire; then you put the safety on, and trust your life to a mechanical device.

That sounds incredibly goddamn stupid, which also goes against everything I know about gun safety. In fact that's probably why I didn't even think of it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Cocked & Locked isn't really unsafe as you are making it out to be, it's one of the most common and most used pistols ever, the 1911 has used that method successfully for over a hundred years.

Frankly you can make the same kind of argument for any other popular safety mechanism like the Glocks safe action trigger, or the SA/DA guns whose primary safety is a DA pull and you use a decocker (hammer drops on a loaded round, a mechanism stops the firing pin from hitting the primer, holygodshit you are trusting your life on that?!?! ).

All these methods can go wrong in the 'right' situation. I can think of situations where all three all fuck up and incidentially they all revolve around a shitty holster, and speaking on that the article seems to indicate pocket carry. That's what is fucking stupid here, not the cocked & locked princple. Without a holster I can see this guy blowing his balls off using just about any gun.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Below are the four rules of firearm safety.
1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

You'll notice that keeping a round chambered is not mentioned. In fact, many people in law enforcement and military professions keep a round chambered.

It is likely the subject in the article was fucking around with the pistol and violating one or more of these rules which resulted in the accident.

[Formless]

Its not the part where you carry with a round chambered that violates gun safety rules (as I was taught them). Its the part that gives "cocked and locked" its name-- trusting the integrity of the safety mechanism above your own common fucking sense. Putting a round in the chamber and cocking the gun is unnecessary in a semiautomatic, and potentially dangerous if you drop the thing and discover your safety isn't working properly-- assuming you even remembered to engage it in the first place.

Yes, Kamikaze, in fact one of the extended safety rules that I was taught (I'm not talking about basic safety, but the rules that go beyond basic safety and even into a bit of ethics) and that was re-emphasized when I took hunter's safety is-- and I am quoting exactly how they put it-- "a safety is a mechanical device that can fail." Its not a slight against safeties, just a reminder that those four (and more) rules you mentioned still apply when the safety mechanism or mechanisms are engaged or you think they are engaged. People who don't respect this rule can get overconfident and careless when they think their gun is locked and unable to fire. The gun should always be treated like its able to fire, because you don't want to find out the hard way that the safety was a piece of shit and broke, among other failure modes.

A semiautomatic that does not have the hammer up is ready to fire in double action, but 19 times out of ten you can drop it even with the safety disengaged and it won't go off (the twentieth time it will be aimed at a little child, so don't try this experiment at home anyone). Cock the damn thing so its ready to fire in single action, and you better damn well keep it secure and in your hand. Not in a holster, in your hand. I have in fact heard of people going around with their concealed carry weapon ready to fire in single action, thinking that this will speed up their draw time in the unlikely scenario that they have to use it. In fact, firing a gun in double action isn't so hard or time consuming to do as some of the people I've heard make it out to be. Therein lies the stupidity.

Well, yes that and carrying it in your pocket and/or in a shitty holster where it could fall out in the first place. But as you might have guessed, it takes multiple failures of common sense for something like this to happen, and DarkArk's question sounded like he was unaware of how the "gun goes off when dropped" bit could possibly happen. The part where it falls out of someone's pocket seemed to me like it would be too obvious for him to be asking about it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Its not the part where you carry with a round chambered that violates gun safety rules (as I was taught them). Its the part that gives "cocked and locked" its name-- trusting the integrity of the safety mechanism above your own common fucking sense. Putting a round in the chamber and cocking the gun is unnecessary in a semiautomatic, and potentially dangerous if you drop the thing and discover your safety isn't working properly-- assuming you even remembered to engage it in the first place.

Do you know anything about how guns work? You literally can't chamber a round without cocking the gun! I can't think of a way to not do it. You have to insert a magazine and then you either have to drop the slide if it's already retracted, or you have to rack the slide in order to chamber a round. The gun is now cocked and you can't get away from it.

In a 1911 your only option is engaging the safety, the other way is to try and hold the hammer and lower it on the round, an idiotic proposition at best, it will also leave the gun non-functional because it's an SAO gun meaning the trigger cannot cock the hammer nomatter what.

In a Glock the gun is simply ready to fire and relies on this little lever thing that mostly ensures it can't be pressed back without a human finger in the trigger, most of the safety here is actually provided by the holster, this is what most cops use. In an SA/DA gun like the P226 you will have to drop the hammer using the decocker, thus trusting a another mechanical device that the gun won't fire as you decock it.... Assuming you remembered to engage it in the first place, that is!

[Ziggy Stardust]

In fact, many people in law enforcement and military professions keep a round chambered.

But this guy isn't in law enforcement or the military, so far as we know. That's a completely different case than just a random guy.

This just sounds to me like typical middle-aged white guy that thinks if something bad happens he will be the one to go all Rambo and save the day. The same mentality of people that think that the shooting in Aurora could have been prevented if all the fat white guys in there had started shooting, too.

[Formless]

Do you know anything about how guns work?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, smartass. And because of this knowledge, I happen to know that 1) no one carries a 1911 concealed. Its too damn big. So cut out that damn red herring, it doesn't actually help your case. 2) most guns, especially those guns which are intended for concealed carry, can be decocked, either with a dedicated decocker or with a little technique of lowering the hammer by hand (carefully). That technique, while less than ideal, is used all the time when at the range or other situations where the gun isn't protecting your life. 3) it doesn't take that damn much time to chamber a round and cock the gun precisely because semiautomatics are made to do both of those things in one motion. So that's not excuse either-- a gun that has no round chambered is far more trustworthy than one which only has the safety preventing it a trigger pull from going off.

Do you think I go into these threads knowing nothing about what I'm talking about? I mean, for fucks sake, you guys think I need to be reminded of the basic firearms safety rules. Its like, I have had a gun in my hands before, and watched how they work so I better understand how to operate one?

[Agent Fisher]

1.Actually, I know three people who carry 1911s or variants concealed.

2.Pretty much any gun with an internal hammer can not be decocked.

3.For a CCW permit holder, when you expect to use that weapon to defend yourself or your loved ones, your adrenaline is going to be pumping so hard, you will lose pretty all ability to think out complicated tasks. It's why I, on-duty carrying or off-duty CCW, carry my weapon in the proper holster type with a round in the chamber. Also, that's because my weapon is an internal hammer, double action only. I can't decock it.

The issue here was the guy was carrying a most likely small caliber, small frame 'pocket pistol' in a pocket holster, he was adjusting himself in the seat, the pistol slipped out of the holster, hit hte floor and discharged. It's one of the reasons, when I was looking for what size handgun, or holster to use, I avoided pocket guns and holsters.

[Terralthra]

3.For a CCW permit holder, when you expect to use that weapon to defend yourself or your loved ones, your adrenaline is going to be pumping so hard, you will lose pretty all ability to think out complicated tasks. It's why I, on-duty carrying or off-duty CCW, carry my weapon in the proper holster type with a round in the chamber. Also, that's because my weapon is an internal hammer, double action only. I can't decock it.

If it's DAO, you can't cock it, either, making it irrelevant that you can't decock it.

[Agent Fisher]

Well, yeah, but it's always cocked as long as there is a round chambered. Actually, with the M&P, by the way it's designed, the only way you can technically decock it is put a magazine into hte weapon with an empty chamber and then pull the trigger.

[Darth Wong]

Gun safety rules are apparently different in America than they are in Canada. In Canada, if you're transporting a handgun legally, the gun and ammo must be kept separate. It is illegal for anyone but a police officer to walk around with a loaded handgun.

Even if you feel you must carry a weapon, what is the point of keeping it loaded? The risk of accidental discharge is obviously much higher in that situation, and do people seriously think that the ability to quick-draw and be shooting in two seconds is something they're going to realistically need?

[Flagg]

Gun safety rules are apparently different in America than they are in Canada. In Canada, if you're transporting a handgun legally, the gun and ammo must be kept separate. It is illegal for anyone but a police officer to walk around with a loaded handgun.

Even if you feel you must carry a weapon, what is the point of keeping it loaded? The risk of accidental discharge is obviously much higher in that situation, and do people seriously think that the ability to quick-draw and be shooting in two seconds is something they're going to realistically need?

Is this a rhetorical question?

[His Divine Shadow]

Do you know anything about how guns work?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, smartass. And because of this knowledge, I happen to know that 1) no one carries a 1911 concealed. Its too damn big. So cut out that damn red herring, it doesn't actually help your case.

I guess that's all that needs to be said on that front really. I know like 5 people myself who do that and go look on any US firearms forum and see just how many do it.

2) most guns, especially those guns which are intended for concealed carry, can be decocked, either with a dedicated decocker or with a little technique of lowering the hammer by hand (carefully). That technique, while less than ideal, is used all the time when at the range or other situations where the gun isn't protecting your life.

I mentioned that already and it doesn't alter anything because there is more than one gun out there in the world. All being used constantly. And if you complain about cocked & locked, a method of carry that is despite how unsafe you claim it to be, common and has been in use for over a 100 years, and then suggest one of the most idiotic and unsafe things you can do with a gun, lowering the hammer manually?!? That fucking procedure has caused more negligent discharges than all the nonsense you're ascribing to cocked & locked method.

I specifically brought up the two other similar chambered carrying methods (and police, military and CCW people use all three on a daily basis) earlier on because they aren't any safer if you use a shitty holster or pocket carry. A proper holster is the best safety device out there, it's gonna be motherfucking hard to get an accidental discharge with a firmly holstered gun even if you try to. Holsters are probably 90% of the mechanical safety side really.

3) it doesn't take that damn much time to chamber a round and cock the gun precisely because semiautomatics are made to do both of those things in one motion. So that's not excuse either-- a gun that has no round chambered is far more trustworthy than one which only has the safety preventing it a trigger pull from going off.

Once again you default to all semi-automatics being the same. Like I already said, some guns can't decock safely and no, advocating manually lowering the hammer with an SAO gun is so goddamn stupid I think it should qualify one for having ones guns taken away, there are plenty of semi auto guns you can't easily cock despite this, including 1911's because they come in so many variations nowadays. Also this horridly unsafe solution has a holster too that's preventing it from going off, the holster is the main safety and at least with a cocked and locked gun you have three safeties.

With a Glock, one of the most commonly carried police guns, the safety is pretty much all in the holster, it falls out and the trigger can as easily snag on a million things. With a 1911 you'd have to have it fall out of the holster, fall so that the grip safety engages, fall so that the safety disengages, then something has to get into the trigger and engage it. A Browning HP can be carried C&L but doesn't have the grip safety but there's still one more step if required failures here than with the most ubiqutous glock carry, so maybe you should start complaining about that instead.

Do you think I go into these threads knowing nothing about what I'm talking about? I mean, for fucks sake, you guys think I need to be reminded of the basic firearms safety rules. Its like, I have had a gun in my hands before, and watched how they work so I better understand how to operate one?

Apparently, this is exactly what you do. If you wanted to convince me otherwise...

[Agent Fisher]

Gun safety rules are apparently different in America than they are in Canada. In Canada, if you're transporting a handgun legally, the gun and ammo must be kept separate. It is illegal for anyone but a police officer to walk around with a loaded handgun.

If I am not carrying it on duty, or if I do not have my ccw permit on me, yes, I must have it unloaded, and either with a cable lock or in a locked case, away from ammo.

As for the last part there, what about armored transit or security guards, can they be armed?

[Darth Wong]

Gun safety rules are apparently different in America than they are in Canada. In Canada, if you're transporting a handgun legally, the gun and ammo must be kept separate. It is illegal for anyone but a police officer to walk around with a loaded handgun.

If I am not carrying it on duty, or if I do not have my ccw permit on me, yes, I must have it unloaded, and either with a cable lock or in a locked case, away from ammo.

Given that they appear to regularly hand out CCW permits to morons (not necessarily meaning you, but look at the news), I have to think that CCW holders shouldn't be allowed to walk around with loaded handguns either. At the very least, even if it's legal, it should still be considered a basic safety rule.

As for the last part there, what about armored transit or security guards, can they be armed?

I've never seen an armed bank guard in Canada. Armoured car drivers are armed; I think there's a special provision for them in the law or something.

[Block]

I've never seen an armed bank guard in Canada. Armoured car drivers are armed; I think there's a special provision for them in the law or something.

Depending on the bank it could be that they're in the vault too, the Suntrusts that I've been to don't have any evidence of an armed guard until you go back to where the saftey deposit boxes are. The only banks I've seen with visible armed guards are in NY and Chicago.

[Formless]

I guess that's all that needs to be said on that front really. I know like 5 people myself who do that and go look on any US firearms forum and see just how many do it.

Yeah, turns out some of us aren't so obsessed with guns and other hobbies to spend significant time on forums dedicated solely to one and only one topic? No, couldn't be!

Even if this is true, who the hell cares? Why do some people think they can take a minor, trivial mistake and turn that into a victory on all fronts? Here, trivia time. The most common CC guns around are .38 Special snubnose revolvers (obviously Cocked and Locked is a null issue there). Does it matter? Not really, unless you take it as evidence that most gun owners find double action to be a non-issue as far as draw speed goes. This bullshit about the 1911 is, no matter how you slice it, a Red Herring. The 1911 is a century old now, and was originally intended for the army, not civilians. What is acceptable risk for someone whose job is to not die in an artillary barrage is different from those risks a civilian can take. Heck, same goes for the difference between a civilian and a police officer. But perhaps the most hilarious of all? The part where you bizarrely accuse me of acting like all semi-autos are the same and wonder why I don't care about the safety problems of Glocks. Not only have I never said anything like that, your initial assertion that Cocked and Locked is just as safe as going without a bullet in the chamber is based on the generalization that what was/is safe for the 1911 is safe in general for semi-automatic handguns. Fucking idiot.

And do you know why all this is irrelevant? Because the whole point of my original post was to explain to someone who has by their own admission mainly handled rifles and possibly shotguns how a handgun might just go off when dropped, something that shouldn't be likely on modern guns. Round in the chamber and hammer up (aka Cocked and Locked carry) is a valid possibility that could explain that part of the OP, and not mutually exclusive with a bad or non-existant holster or other mistakes that caused the gun to fall out of his pocket in the first place. But then, this is the second time I have explained this bit of context.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here's a tip, don't categorically call something you know nothing about retarded and act like some kind of authority when you infact don't even know the basic function of a semi-automatic handgun. Leave that to people who are "obsessed" with guns

I would advise you to stop embarassing yourself by opining on the 1911, the age of the design is utterly irrelevant, that's as hilarious an argument as that whole "it was made for the military" bullshit which has no meaning on anything, if you knew anything about the 1911 it was sold as a civilian gun from the start, much like he modern day Beretta, so no it wasn't specifically made for someone "whose job is to not die in an artillary barrage" at all and that's certainly not how it's been used either, plenty of other SAO guns out there like the 1911 as well... A gun being adopted or even developed in the hopes of it getting adopted by the military doesn't make it a military gun with military-only applications, the whole distinction is a false one.

And complaining about the age of the 1911 is hilarious since you brought up an even older design right before (double action revolvers) right before that. Not that anything hinges on the 1911 in particular here, it's just a good example of a popular SAO gun that is used by thousands and thousands of people daily.

You came in here spouting a bunch of bullshit about the safety of a popular carrying method and where pretty much wrong, none of the chambered carrying methods out there are any safer than the other, and it's mainly the holster that provides most of the mechanical safety.

Frankly I'd have cut you some slack if you where simply against carrying anything chambered period because atleast that would have been a consistent stance. I would have done the same if you simply left it at saying it could have been cocked & locked if you had left it at that without calling the whole carry method retarded. But you seem to insist on digging yourself into a deeper ditch with all this military/civilian nonsense and making statements like you can chamber a semi-auto with cocking it, nobody carries 1911s etc.. jesus...

[Jub]

I'm going to echo Darth Wong here and ask why you need to carry a loaded weapon. Either you're calm enough to keep your head in a fight and respond appropriately or you can't and shouldn't be discharging a weapon anyway. It seems pretty cut and dry that civilians have no need to carry loaded weapons.

[Agent Fisher]

I'm going to echo Darth Wong here and ask why you need to carry a loaded weapon. Either you're calm enough to keep your head in a fight and respond appropriately or you can't and shouldn't be discharging a weapon anyway. It seems pretty cut and dry that civilians have no need to carry loaded weapons.

Cause in a fight, you don't have time to properly think of how to draw and chamber a round. It all becomes muscle memory, and yeah, I concede you could train to draw and chamber a round, but that takes extra time, and what if you're injured?

And I won't start an argument about whether or not civilians need to carry loaded weapons. I'm sure I could trot out all the old sayings about how when seconds count, the police are only minutes away and all that, but I'd be just labelled a paranoid rambo/hero wannabe. I carry a loaded weapon off-duty because my company provides security to some of the most crime ridden apartment complexes in the Sacramento area, and there are plenty of gangs and thugs that don't like us.

EDIT:
Ok, I will also concede that I am not a normal civilian compared to most, and that my reasons are far more like law enforcement than just some random guy who wants to carry concealed.

[Jub]

I'm going to echo Darth Wong here and ask why you need to carry a loaded weapon. Either you're calm enough to keep your head in a fight and respond appropriately or you can't and shouldn't be discharging a weapon anyway. It seems pretty cut and dry that civilians have no need to carry loaded weapons.

Cause in a fight, you don't have time to properly think of how to draw and chamber a round. It all becomes muscle memory, and yeah, I concede you could train to draw and chamber a round, but that takes extra time, and what if you're injured?

And I won't start an argument about whether or not civilians need to carry loaded weapons. I'm sure I could trot out all the old sayings about how when seconds count, the police are only minutes away and all that, but I'd be just labelled a paranoid rambo/hero wannabe. I carry a loaded weapon off-duty because my company provides security to some of the most crime ridden apartment complexes in the Sacramento area, and there are plenty of gangs and thugs that don't like us.

What's next, walking around with a loaded rifle across your chest like some third world shit hole? Do you really need your weapon cocked and loaded so you can blow away that suspicious looking guy who was reaching for his phone, or do you think that when you know you're in danger that the guy who already has his weapon drawn won't shoot you before you upholster and fire your weapon?

You're going to need to produce some evidence that carrying a loaded weapon actually makes you safer and not just another target with a gun in his pocket.