NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

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NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by General Zod »

I thought this was an interesting little article, and it basically reaffirms what I've thought about Independents for some time. They're really not as independent as they claim, they just don't like to admit that they overwhelmingly vote for one side over the other. (Feel free to assign whatever reason for that you want.)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics ... n-disguise
Independent voters have grown in recent years into a mega voting bloc. By some estimates they outnumber registered Republicans, and even registered Democrats.

Every election cycle, independents generate enormous amounts of interest as candidates, pollsters and the media probe their feelings. These voters are widely considered to hold the key to most elections.

Independents generally report that neither party fully represents their views. Some report being to the left of the Democratic Party or to the right of the GOP, but most report being in the middle and describe themselves as moderates. As a group, independents tend to prize their ability to think for themselves, rather than march lockstep with a party.

"It's a shame that ... more people don't do that," said Amin Sadri, 23, a Florida independent. "That more people, for lack of a better word, they almost feed at the trough. They are set on a certain mindset, so they only listen and gather information that is already predestined to go in a certain direction."


Sadri is an independent voter. He despises partisanship, and has close friends who are Republicans and Democrats. Even his religion — he subscribes to the Baha'i faith — has explicit rules about partisanship.

"It's an inherent aspect of politics that it's about one side versus the other," Sadri said in an interview. "So Baha'is, because we seek unity and because we seek to abstain from conflict and contention, partisan politics are something that Baha'is are forbidden to participate in."

There's a paradox, however: Even as the number of independents in the United States has soared, presidential election after presidential election in recent years has come down to the wire. If a third of the country is truly open-minded about supporting either the Republican or the Democrat for president, the math alone suggests elections should regularly produce outcomes other than a 50-50 split.

Political scientists have known for some time that significant numbers of independents vote consistently for Democrats or consistently for Republicans.

Sadri for example, supported Barack Obama in the 2008 election and plans to do so again in 2012. Going back to the presidential race between Republican Bob Dole and Democrat Bill Clinton in 1996 — when Sadri was a small child — the disputed 2000 race between Democrat Al Gore and Republican George W. Bush, and the 2004 election between Bush and Democrat John Kerry, Sadri said he has always wanted the Democrat to win.

So why isn't he a registered Democrat?

"See, that's the problem," he said. "As soon as I say that I'm a Democrat, people look at me and say, 'Oh, you believe in this, you believe in this, you believe in this,' and I don't!"

This fall, Sadri will count himself as an independent voter. But if the campaigns think he's persuadable, they'll be wasting their time.

Now, politicians, reporters and pollsters have known for a while that only a few independents are actually open to persuasion. The challenge lies in how to identify them.

That's where a new psychological test could be useful.

Brian Nosek is a psychologist at the University of Virginia. Along with graduate student Carlee Beth Hawkins, Nosek studies why people don't always do what they say they want to do — why there is a gap in many aspects of human behavior between what people intend to do and what they actually do.

Nosek and Hawkins believed this disconnect explains why many independents aren't independent when it comes to voting.

The psychologists used a test that purports to measure people's inner attitudes, including ones they don't know they have.

"The test is called the Implicit Association Test," Nosek said. "And it's been used for a variety of different topics — trying to measure people's racial attitudes, their anxieties about spiders, their self-esteem. In our case, we tried to measure how strongly people associate themselves with Democrats or Republicans."

The idea behind the test is simple. If you are a Republican deep down, you'll quickly categorize things that are Republican with things about yourself, because you identify with the Republican Party. You'll be slower to group things connected to the Democratic Party with things about yourself. (You can try the test for yourself here.)

The speed of those associations can be precisely measured. In the study, Nosek tested 1,865 U.S. citizens to see how fast they made these associations. The test easily identified registered Republicans and Democrats. Republicans were quick to link Republican words with themselves. Liberals made faster associations with words connected to the Democratic Party.

Independents? Some showed no bias for either party. But many did.

"It might break down into a third, a third, a third," Nosek said, referring to independents who leaned Democratic, leaned Republican and were neutral. "There are a large number of independents who are not in the middle, but show some degree of implicit partisanship."

Nosek and Hawkins proved the test was measuring people's real attitudes by asking the volunteers to evaluate different policies. Some were labeled Democratic ideas. Others were labeled Republican. Then Nosek secretly switched the labels. The idea that used to be called Democratic was now labeled Republican, and the idea that used to be Republican was now labeled Democratic.

"What we found was that independents who were implicitly Democratic tended to favor the plan proposed by Democrats," Nosek said. "And independents who were implicitly Republican tended to favor the plan proposed by Republicans. And it didn't matter which plan was which."

When a plan was labeled Democratic, in other words, independents who were implicitly Democratic supported it — and they opposed it when the label was changed to Republican. Party labels, not ideas, determined which proposals these voters supported. That's the definition of partisanship — where loyalty to the team comes first; the ideas come second.

The psychologists are publishing their study in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

Nosek thinks the test can help independents figure out if they are walking the walk, or just talking the talk. Campaigns might use the test to find the minority of independents truly open to persuasion.

So this fall, don't be surprised if someone comes up to you and says, "Would you mind taking a little psychological test?"
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

I came to this conclusion myself already. If you actually pay attention to what self-described "moderates" and "independents" actually say then you can tell most of them are almost entirely Republican or Democrat in their political beliefs. I suspect much of it comes down to wanting to feel like they're special, like they're not "one of the sheep."
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Zaune »

Well, what do you expect when there's only two political parties to speak of, and usually only two candidates?
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Spoonist »

Uhm, but that is a good result. 1/3 of independents can't be categorized. That is much much better than expected (at least by me). If your only options are A or B then most people would lean one way or the other. Just like undecided voters who usually lean one way or the others. What is missing is what independents can bring to the table as in sometimes you get option C or amendments with som C.
But really this should be tested vs actual votes as well, as in checking out how elected independents voted.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Grumman »

"The test is called the Implicit Association Test,"
Not this bullshit again.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Skgoa »

I am more amazed by the comments. People are consistent in their political views and won't jump around the political spectrum on a whim WHO KNEW!!! :roll: (It's pretty sad that people would try to force everyone into a binary Reps/Dems spectrum, though.)
BTW you can get the same "insight" from any other political system. Take me as an example: my political views are very far to the left, yet I am not a registered member of The Left party, since I also disagree with a lot of what they are saying. You can make the same kind of observation when looking at almost all voters here in Germany. If a party consistently represents their views and values, they are going to consistently vote for that party, even though they wouldn't necessarily identify themselves with it and they would switch to voting for another party the moment that party represents them better. Politicians also sometimes switch parties or even form new parties. This is something that is happening much less in the US, due to only having two parties with very established profiles. But it is still true.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by General Zod »

Grumman wrote:
"The test is called the Implicit Association Test,"
Not this bullshit again.
Are you going to bother clarifying?
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by salm »

Skgoa wrote:I am more amazed by the comments. People are consistent in their political views and won't jump around the political spectrum on a whim WHO KNEW!!! :roll: (It's pretty sad that people would try to force everyone into a binary Reps/Dems spectrum, though.)
BTW you can get the same "insight" from any other political system. Take me as an example: my political views are very far to the left, yet I am not a registered member of The Left party, since I also disagree with a lot of what they are saying. You can make the same kind of observation when looking at almost all voters here in Germany. If a party consistently represents their views and values, they are going to consistently vote for that party, even though they wouldn't necessarily identify themselves with it and they would switch to voting for another party the moment that party represents them better. Politicians also sometimes switch parties or even form new parties. This is something that is happening much less in the US, due to only having two parties with very established profiles. But it is still true.
Oh, come on. There are tons of People in Germany who vote out of tradition. I doubt that most people even know in detail which party represents them best.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Thanas »

Yeah, and if they are not voting out of tradition they still stick to the same kind of direction. For example, somebody who voted PDS is never going to vote for the CSU.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Skgoa »

Which is exactly what I said.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74

This is pre-WWII. You can sort of tell from the sketch style, from thee way it refers to Japan (Japan in the 1950s was still rebuilding from WWII), the spelling of Tokyo, lots of details. Nothing obvious... except that the upper right hand corner of the page reads "November 1931." --- Simon_Jester
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by salm »

Uh... ok, it looked like you were saying the opposite. :wtf: :?
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Terralthra »

Skgoa wrote:I am more amazed by the comments. People are consistent in their political views and won't jump around the political spectrum on a whim WHO KNEW!!! :roll: (It's pretty sad that people would try to force everyone into a binary Reps/Dems spectrum, though.)
BTW you can get the same "insight" from any other political system. Take me as an example: my political views are very far to the left, yet I am not a registered member of The Left party, since I also disagree with a lot of what they are saying. You can make the same kind of observation when looking at almost all voters here in Germany. If a party consistently represents their views and values, they are going to consistently vote for that party, even though they wouldn't necessarily identify themselves with it and they would switch to voting for another party the moment that party represents them better. Politicians also sometimes switch parties or even form new parties. This is something that is happening much less in the US, due to only having two parties with very established profiles. But it is still true.
I think you missed part of what the research said. Various legislative proposals were offered to self-proclaimed independent voters, and told it represented either a Democratic or Republican proposal. For many of the "independents", what the proposal would actually do didn't matter, they approved of it or disapproved of it based entirely on whether the D or R was on top, even switching their opinion of it based on the sponsor. The exact same legislation! That's the opposite of independent; that's complete partisanship.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

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Terralthra wrote:For many of the "independents", what the proposal would actually do didn't matter, they approved of it or disapproved of it based entirely on whether the D or R was on top, even switching their opinion of it based on the sponsor. The exact same legislation! That's the opposite of independent; that's complete partisanship.
No. The Implicit Association Test does not determine whether you approve or disapprove of something. It only finds out whether, when forced to associate two dissimilar items (in this case Republican/Democrat and things I approve of/things I disapprove of), one is easier than the other.

Basically, they are committing the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle. Even if all Democrats find it easier when "things they like" are on the same side as "Democratic things", this does not mean that everyone who finds it easier when "things they like" are on the same side as "Democratic things" is a Democrat. "All As are B" is not the same as "All Bs are A".
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Terralthra »

Grumman wrote:
Terralthra wrote:For many of the "independents", what the proposal would actually do didn't matter, they approved of it or disapproved of it based entirely on whether the D or R was on top, even switching their opinion of it based on the sponsor. The exact same legislation! That's the opposite of independent; that's complete partisanship.
No. The Implicit Association Test does not determine whether you approve or disapprove of something. It only finds out whether, when forced to associate two dissimilar items (in this case Republican/Democrat and things I approve of/things I disapprove of), one is easier than the other.

Basically, they are committing the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle. Even if all Democrats find it easier when "things they like" are on the same side as "Democratic things", this does not mean that everyone who finds it easier when "things they like" are on the same side as "Democratic things" is a Democrat. "All As are B" is not the same as "All Bs are A".
the OP wrote:Nosek and Hawkins proved the test was measuring people's real attitudes by asking the volunteers to evaluate different policies. Some were labeled Democratic ideas. Others were labeled Republican. Then Nosek secretly switched the labels. The idea that used to be called Democratic was now labeled Republican, and the idea that used to be Republican was now labeled Democratic.

"What we found was that independents who were implicitly Democratic tended to favor the plan proposed by Democrats," Nosek said. "And independents who were implicitly Republican tended to favor the plan proposed by Republicans. And it didn't matter which plan was which."

When a plan was labeled Democratic, in other words, independents who were implicitly Democratic supported it — and they opposed it when the label was changed to Republican. Party labels, not ideas, determined which proposals these voters supported. That's the definition of partisanship — where loyalty to the team comes first; the ideas come second.
Read the whole article next time, dumbass.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Spoonist »

Terralthra, Grunman is talking about how the Implicit Association Test works, and his speculation on how this was done in that context.

If what the article says is true about the methodology (which I don't think is accurate) then that couldn't be done with the standard Implicit Association Test.

So I'm going to assume that the difference in your position vs Grunman is that you interpret the story differently depending on experience with the Implicit Association Test.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Terralthra »

Spoonist wrote:Terralthra, Grunman is talking about how the Implicit Association Test works, and his speculation on how this was done in that context.

If what the article says is true about the methodology (which I don't think is accurate) then that couldn't be done with the standard Implicit Association Test.

So I'm going to assume that the difference in your position vs Grunman is that you interpret the story differently depending on experience with the Implicit Association Test.
The story lays this out pretty fucking clearly. They performed an IAT to try to determine whether or not self-proclaimed independents had a partisan loyalty despite their claims otherwise. When the IAT showed that some (roughly 2/3s) did have an unspoken loyalty to one party or the other, they tested the loyalty shown by showing them identical policy documents that had either "Democrat" or "Republican" on the top as having proposed the policies.

Those who showed a strong affinity on the IAT to one party or the other confirmed this attitude by approving of a policy when it was proposed by the party they had unspoken loyalty towards, while disapproving of the same policy when proposed by the other party.

So, there were two tests: an IAT, and a policy document "loyalty test." The article even makes this connection between the IAT and the policy document name-switch explicitly, when it says "Nosek and Hawkins proved the test was measuring people's real attitudes by asking the volunteers to evaluate different policies."
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Without actually looking at the paper and seeing the methodology, you can't even really say much about the IAT anyway. It's a pretty broad category of tests, and we don't know exactly how they implemented it, or even really what the results were. Sweeping generalizations about the IAT are pointless, because it is incredibly context dependent.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Spoonist »

@Terralthra
I got that, but I'm saying that Grunman is not talking about that but rather how one sees the validity of what the Implicit Association Test actually tests for.

So your response that he should read the OP does not adress what Grunman was talking about. He could read the OP a hundred times and still write the same argument dependent on his experience of the IAT. So you are essentially talking past him.
If we look at Grunman's "not this bullshit again" comment I think that it is pretty safe to conclude that he thinks that the IAT does not show what that article claims. So I think that he has experience of the critique against the use of the IAT as a valid indicator of a bias.

While Ziggy's response does adress what he is talking about directly. Unless we look into the study and see their methodology its very hard to estimate this specific study's use of IAT.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Terralthra »

Look, if he wants to read half the article and get called a dumbass for claiming that the IAT doesn't do x, when the IAT is not all they did, then it's his problem, not yours or mine.

Look at the sequence of posts again.
Me: "They showed a bunch of policy stuff and determined partisanship via the participants' approval or disapproval of x with y label attached."
Grumman: "THE IAT DOESN'T MEASURE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL"
Me: "Yeah, the IAT isn't the only thing they did. ::requotes article paragraphs of non-IAT matter.::"
You: "Oh, Grumman isn't talking about that, he's just talking about the IAT."

Great, the IAT doesn't do that. That's not the only thing the researchers did! The whole point is that the researchers didn't commit the fallacy he said they did; they took their hypothetical results about partisanship and tested them in a fairly repeatable and empirical fashion, successfully.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Grumman »

I am not a psychologist, but I have taken IATs before, and I have read the section of the paper on the first of the five studies (the others are not presented in a manner that is as easy to decipher).

The first study did not show any meaningful difference in explicit support among implicitly Republican independents. Implicitly Democratic independents and self-declared Republicans both showed the most bias, with self-declared Democrats somewhere in the middle.

While it is true that Republicans and implicitly Republican independents implicitly supported Republican policies, and Democrats and implicitly Democratic independents implicitly supported Democratic policies, this is at odds with the data on their explicit support. In other words, they backed up their IAT findings with harder data that did not back up their IAT findings.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Grumman wrote:I am not a psychologist, but I have taken IATs before,
:roll:

This is like saying you've taken an IQ test. There are literally dozens of different types, so it is meaningless to generalize based on participation in one. Especially since, as a participant, you are blind to what they are actually testing - chances are you don't even know what sort of data they were collecting on you, most psychology studies are like that.
Grumman wrote:The first study did not show any meaningful difference in explicit support among implicitly Republican independents. Implicitly Democratic independents and self-declared Republicans both showed the most bias, with self-declared Democrats somewhere in the middle.
EDIT: nevermind, misunderstood you at first. Give me a few minutes to type a new response.

Grumman wrote: While it is true that Republicans and implicitly Republican independents implicitly supported Republican policies, and Democrats and implicitly Democratic independents implicitly supported Democratic policies, this is at odds with the data on their explicit support. In other words, they backed up their IAT findings with harder data that did not back up their IAT findings.
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Grumman »

I do not have access on that website, but the full title is the same. Could you have missed the three replication studies?
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Re: NPR: Are so-called independents really independent?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Sorry, missed the edit window by a couple minutes. Ugh.

This is what I was typing:


Let me break this down, using some of the language from the paper itself.

In the first study, they demonstrated that self-reported independents demonstrated variation in implicit party identification, and this variation predicted political judgment along party lines. Although implicit party identities predicted their policy positions along ideological lines, they avoided using the proposing party to guide their explicit policy preference. Those are the findings of the IAT, in which the participants were presented with two diametrically opposed plans (one being explicitly liberal, the other explicitly conservative). With me so far?

So, the first study demonstrated this implicit effect. However, since the plans were explicitly ideological, this provides the subjects with a cue or primer for evaluation. The second study wanted to control for that factor, by providing them with the same plan simply labelled differently. If the ideological difference in the plans is removed, then the only role that implicit party identity should be able to play is in producing an interaction with the party proposing the plan.

The second study demonstrated that independents who were implicitly Democratic implicitly preferred the mainstreaming plan when it was proposed by Democrats more than when it was proposed by Republicans, and vice versa for independents who were implicitly Republican. Implicit party identity predicted political judgment above and beyond variation accounted for by self-rating of proposing party influence, political ideology, and assessments of party leaning. Now, yes, the paper did not demonstrate that implicit preference is a viable predictor for explicit preference ... but it also explains quite clearly the implications of this on their conclusion. Hell, it's in the abstract of the paper, too, so I can't see what your problem is. They address that issue several times.

So, basically, what is your problem with the IAT, that makes you think that the results from their first study are inaccurate? (I have my own problems with it, by the way, but I'm not giving you any help). And what makes you think the results of the second study are in any way at odds with those from the first study?


EDIT: The replication studies aren't separate. They are just replications, to make sure the results weren't a statistical fluke.
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