New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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New nuclear fuel source would power human race until 5000AD
Article title seemed a little misleading. Added only the ending links to US government sites.
The Register wrote: Since the Fukushima meltdown - as a result of which, not a single person is set to be measurably harmed by radiation - we know that nuclear power is safe. New discoveries by US scientists have now shown it's sustainable as well.

That's because US government scientists have just announced research in which they've massively increased the efficiency of techniques for extracting uranium from the ocean - and that means that supplies of uranium are secure for the future even if the entire human race moves to fission power for all its energy needs.

"We have shown that our adsorbents can extract five to seven times more uranium at uptake rates seven times faster than the world's best adsorbents," says Chris Janke of the US Oak Ridge National Laboratory, one of America's top nuke labs.

At the moment people don't use nuclear power much (the UK's small and aged nuclear fleet can barely generate four times as much power as its wind farms, showing just how little energy we're talking about here: under 2 per cent of our national energy needs are derived from nuclear right now). As a result there's no scarcity of uranium, and indeed nobody has bothered exploring for more of it for decades.

But one day people really will have to stop using fossil fuel for nearly everything - either to prevent a global warming apocalypse, or (perhaps more realistically) because supplies will eventually run out. There's no chance of renewables generating the sort of energy the future human race will require to live above the poverty line, so something else will be required.

Anti-nuclear people have always argued that the something had better not be nuclear because more nuclear powerplants equals more weapons-grade material (not by any means necessarily true, though it seemed as though it might be the case back in the early days of nuclear technology). And even if you think nuclear bombs are OK, the fearmongers have always added that there just isn't enough uranium about to keep the lights on for long.

That may very well be correct, provided all the uranium must be dug out of the ground and run through a powerplant just once before being classified as waste and dumped. But in fact almost all of the spent fuel can be recycled and used again (nobody bothers much right now, as new uranium is cheaper - and in the States recycling the waste has actually been banned at the behest of the anti-nuclear tendency).

And best of all, there's an awful lot more uranium in the sea than there is in the ground. But until now, the costs of getting it out have been so steep as to make it unfeasible even given nuclear-power economics. (Normally, fuel price isn't a big deal for nuclear power as it is a tiny proportion of the cost of having a station - so double-price uranium only sends up the cost of the electricity by a few per cent at most. But seawater uranium to date has cost many times double.)

But now Janke and his colleagues at Oak Ridge and the Pacific Northwest federal atom labs have massively increased the efficiency of seawater extraction.

"Our HiCap adsorbents are made by subjecting high-surface area polyethylene fibers to ionizing radiation, then reacting these pre-irradiated fibers with chemical compounds that have a high affinity for selected metals," says Janke. The allied US government experts behind the tech presented details at a major boffinry conference in Philadelphia yesterday.

Nobody's saying that the new HiCap tech can compete with ordinary mining on cost yet - but that's almost irrelevant. What HiCap offers is, first, assurances to nuclear powerplant operators that they will still be able to obtain uranium for the foreseeable future with no more than a massive price increase - say no worse than three or four times over - no matter whether landbased reserves play out or become oversubscribed. That means their plants' total operating costs won't climb by any more than a marginal amount. Thus, a major source of risk for investors is removed.

Secondly, the prospect of being able to extract billions of tons of uranium from the sea means that humanity has access to enough fuel to meet all its energy needs - all of them, not just present day electricity demand but also the other 90 per cent currently supplied in thermal form - for thousands of years.

One US government statement issued this week says that oceanic uranium could last 6,500 years: but a more conservative estimate assuming use of recycling (as offered by Professor J C Mackay of Cambridge) is say three millennia with all humans using as much energy as a present-day European does. So we've gone with that for our headline.

There's more from the US government labs here and here.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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The Register wrote: Since the Fukushima meltdown - as a result of which, not a single person is set to be measurably harmed by radiation -
This is were I started to do this: :roll:

The Register wrote: we know that nuclear power is safe. New discoveries by US scientists have now shown it's sustainable as well.
And this is were I stopped reading.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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EDIT: Nah, don't feel like getting into a debate.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Guardsman Bass wrote:EDIT: Nah, don't feel like getting into a debate.
it's usually just rehashing things over and over again.
everyone is a self proclaimed expert when it comes to nuclear power
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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*beats head against wall*

Nuclear power is safe, but it isn't perfect for numerous reasons. Most nuclear power is used for sustaining the baseline power needs of a region, but only because it costs approximately the same to run a nuclear reactor as it does NOT to run the reactor. Most peak times are fueled by coal, but coal is so damned cheap in the US, and the fears of a Chernobyl or Three Mile Island, have meant that it's just more practical to go right ahead and build another coal plant than invest in a new reactor.

It's the same problem that comes up when someone proposes a new oil refinery. While it would be more efficient with modern equipment and would allow more oil to be refined, the $1 billion dollar price tag means that it's a huge expense to try and sell to investors. Plus, the bureaucratic paperwork is so insane that you'd be better off just waiting for a spot in the existing refineries.

Just from what I remember off the top of my head, this article is a mess, they don't really touch on the real issue on why we aren't using fission power, and it's rather stupid. Just more drivel pushed on us by editors who don't know anything about the issue other than what point of view they want to push.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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If we're willing to strain uranium out of seawater, then two things.

1) We're desperate enough to start baking more raw U-238 into plutonium, which can be used for reactors if we really want to.

2) We're desperate enough to play with thorium, which stretches the fuel supply further.

3) We're desperate enough to start using more breeder reactors, which hugely increase the fuel supply.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Baffalo wrote:It's the same problem that comes up when someone proposes a new oil refinery. While it would be more efficient with modern equipment and would allow more oil to be refined, the $1 billion dollar price tag means that it's a huge expense to try and sell to investors. Plus, the bureaucratic paperwork is so insane that you'd be better off just waiting for a spot in the existing refineries.
I would like to add: the necessary amount of money simply isn't available right now. Even if you convince banks and regulatory agencies - who exactly is going to actually pay for the construction?
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Well, I guess Exxon Mobile could do it if you're looking for an American company since their market cap is measured in hundreds of billions. Or heck, maybe Apple would like its own oil refinery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... talization

Or a full-scale prototype liquid flouride thorium reactor. Yes, I think I recall someone pitching such an idea to Google. With the Fed keeping interest rates low, it's not like there's a shortage of money in the market. There's a shortage of entities that both have sufficient money and are also willing to take risks with low payout.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Nuclear power is a fucking joke. The public opinion argument alone crushes its future, never mind things like cost, waste management, etc.

The future is fusion power, and not power plants generating it. Merely harvesting it via solar technologies, with the available energy reaching Earth's surface many orders of magnitude greater than what we need and renewable for the next several billion years.

All other forms of energy generation will be effectively wiped out by solar. It's approaching grid parity far faster than people expected, and it will become cheaper soon after. This is the nature of exponential growth models.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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I like solar as much as you do, and I still think we're going to need more nukes in the coming decades if we're going to kick the carbon habit.

Solar is improving fast, but nuclear dosen't have an uncertainty coefficent.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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madd0ct0r wrote:I like solar as much as you do, and I still think we're going to need more nukes in the coming decades if we're going to kick the carbon habit.

Solar is improving fast, but nuclear dosen't have an uncertainty coefficent.
Even cloudy days still yield enoumous amounts of energy for havesting. Full spectrum solar technologies can harvest energy even at night from ambient heat and even moon light. With decentralized numerous efficient utility scale storage systems and home scale energy storage systems, combined with infrastructure integrated solar technologies (like photovoltaic steels, glass, plastics, fabrics and even roads), concerns about reliable energy are laughable.

This will become such a cheap method of producing energy that anyone who proposed nuclear power (aside from very specific niche applications) will be laughed at for thinking a more expensive and dangerous energy source has any kind of appeal.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Singular Intellect wrote:Nuclear power is a fucking joke. The public opinion argument alone crushes its future, never mind things like cost, waste management, etc.
Nuclear power comes pretty damn close to being competitive with fossilpower today; fossilpower is only going to get more expensive. Waste management is a trivial problem for nations like China (which intend to solve it in a logical fashion); it's more problematic in denser nations like Japan and more NIMBY-ridden nations like the US.

I see no reason to assume nuclear power is "a fucking joke;" I think you may be the only one who's laughing.
The future is fusion power, and not power plants generating it. Merely harvesting it via solar technologies, with the available energy reaching Earth's surface many orders of magnitude greater than what we need and renewable for the next several billion years.
By the same argument, nuclear power is almost indefinitely renewable- interesting but ultimately meaningless because it assumes we can do everything we fantasize about doing.

Which maybe we will some day- but the one constant of long range prediction is that it never turns out the way we plan. Electricity, airplanes, and computers all turned out to be at least as important as we predicted when they were first invented. But they're important in different ways; we use them differently.

See what I'm saying?
All other forms of energy generation will be effectively wiped out by solar. It's approaching grid parity far faster than people expected, and it will become cheaper soon after. This is the nature of exponential growth models.
Can you please prove that the adoption and advancement of solar power fits an exponential growth model? Are you sure it's not a linear function? Polynomial? How about a logistic function? LOTS of things fit logistic curves.

I know this is one of your pet topics, so I assume you have enough solid facts and reasoning to prove your assertions.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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I didn't really want to wade into the nuclear v.s. solar debate, but here goes... Earth's insolation (averaged over 365 24 hour days at all latitudes) is 250 W/m^2 or 6 kWh/m^2/day. The average home has a 250 m^2 roof and so could produce as much as 1.5 MWh of energy every day. This far exceeds the average home's power consumption of 15 kWh/year (not counting gasoline for vehicles -- one US gallon of gasoline = 36 kWh). So in theory, solar could supplant all other forms of power generation on Earth. Assuming cheap, durable, highly efficient solar cells and cheap, durable, highly efficient means of energy storage and/or transmission coupled with a robust electric grid.

Of course, even if this ideal solar technology existed, we would still need other forms of energy generation to power our deep space probes. Nuclear energy, with its extremely favorable energy to weight ratio, is well suited to this task.

At present, however, nuclear power generation is still cheaper and requires less land use than solar power generation assuming sane regulatory schemes (i.e. not in the USA). Solar generation has obvious advantages over nuclear generation such as lower capital costs and less catastrophic risk, but overall lifetime costs are still not one of these advantages. If we had continued building nuclear power plants in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, then fewer people would be dying of pollution from coal fired power plants and global warming would be less of an issue.

Should we resume construction of nuclear power plants to combat carbon pollution in the near term? Should we assume that a solar renaissance is imminent and invest everything in solar research instead? These sorts of questions are above my pay grade. But remember, in the 70s we thought that by 2000 everyone would own a flying car and vacation Mars. Space technology hasn't quite panned out the way we thought it would. I would advocate cautious optimism regarding the claim that "all other forms of energy generation will be effectively wiped out by solar" within our lifetimes.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Solar panels in the US are only cheap because the Chinese are grossly over-subsidizing their production. If or when they stop doing that, we'll see how cheap and convenient solar power actually is for most people.

In the mean time, other forms of energy are growing much faster in the US. Wind power already accounts for more than 10% of the electricity supply of several states, and it and natural gas are eating solar power's lunch in terms of new US capacity added.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Simon_Jester wrote:Nuclear power comes pretty damn close to being competitive with fossilpower today; fossilpower is only going to get more expensive.
Correct, and that only speeds up points of grid parity for solar and then getting cheaper, which it will. Solar energy costs come only for technology, not fuel costs or distribution of energy, which is solar radiation that is free and already distributed. Mass production and running technological improvements continue to make solar cheaper and cheaper. The electronics industry handily demostrates how that model works, which incidently, is the industry taking over the solar energy sector.
Waste management is a trivial problem for nations like China (which intend to solve it in a logical fashion); it's more problematic in denser nations like Japan and more NIMBY-ridden nations like the US.
As I said before, I don't even need to appeal to costs and logistics of nuclear issues. Public opinion alone crushes it.
Which maybe we will some day- but the one constant of long range prediction is that it never turns out the way we plan. Electricity, airplanes, and computers all turned out to be at least as important as we predicted when they were first invented. But they're important in different ways; we use them differently.

See what I'm saying?
And how many people do you think completely agree solar will be the primary and vastly dominate energy infrastructure of our future?
Can you please prove that the adoption and advancement of solar power fits an exponential growth model? Are you sure it's not a linear function? Polynomial? How about a logistic function? LOTS of things fit logistic curves.

I know this is one of your pet topics, so I assume you have enough solid facts and reasoning to prove your assertions.
Sure. Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, and Here.

Solar is currently growing exponentially, and this feat is accomplished via government subsidies and the fact it's still (relatively) at small scale, so impressive growth at this level isn't surprising. Some countries, like Spain for example, have gotten kicked in the nuts financially because they completely underestimate how rapidly solar can be deployed and take advantage of such subsidies. Once solar power reaches grid parity (as I linked to in my first post in this thread) and subsidies no longer are required, economic incentive alone will drive solar growth into a much larger paradigm. This will be possible via numerous and rapid advances in photovoltaic technologies and energy storage systems, many of which I've cited before and many more that have cropped up since.

Now, your point about an observed exponential curve needs some clarification. The curve can exist or not, depending on what data across what time frame you plug into it, what resolution your graphing is at, etc. I assume you're well aware of this.

My poisiton is that solar is growing exponentially (I referenced multiple graphs above proving my point), it will continue to do so and will in fact explode in growth as the costs of solar equal and then become less than other energy sources (my first reference covered this). Economic incentive (making money) will drive this growth to unprecendented levels. Obviously this growth will reach a maximum growth capacity and will begin saturating the market as it approaches meeting all energy needs. Then the growth model becomes a logistic one as growth levels off and needs to only meet energy consumption growth.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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My poisiton is that solar is growing exponentially (I referenced multiple graphs above proving my point),
I don't think anyone is arguing with this.
it will continue to do so
This is where I think some of us take issue without your claim.

The claim that something is now growing exponentially does not imply that it will continue to do so in the future. (Or at least long enough, as you point out, to satisfy our power needs.) There are countless examples of this. The aviation industry grew exponentially in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, but stopped short of hypersonic intercontinental flight. Computer clock speeds grew exponentially in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but have stagnated recently. (Present speed advances come from the use of multiple cores, not faster clock speeds.) Human population has grown exponentially through most of history, but we are all hoping that will change soon.

I would really like for solar's exponential growth to continue and for solar to become the dominant technology for power generation. However, your assertion that future exponential growth in solar is inevitable is not unlike the claims of fossil fuel proponents that the laws of supply and demand will ensure a perpetual supply of oil. Market laws are not the same as physical laws.

My opinion is that investment in nuclear technology, at least as a stopgap until solar can take over from fossil fuels, is a legitimate strategy. Your claim that "nuclear power is a fucking joke" suggests that you believe otherwise. Your point about public opinion preventing development of nuclear power is well taken, but I do not think it is valid argument for abandoning nuclear power entirely. Public opinion can be changed through better scientific literacy -- the laws of nature cannot.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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Singular Intellect wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Nuclear power comes pretty damn close to being competitive with fossilpower today; fossilpower is only going to get more expensive.
Correct, and that only speeds up points of grid parity for solar and then getting cheaper, which it will. Solar energy costs come only for technology, not fuel costs or distribution of energy, which is solar radiation that is free and already distributed. Mass production and running technological improvements continue to make solar cheaper and cheaper. The electronics industry handily demostrates how that model works, which incidently, is the industry taking over the solar energy sector.
Energy distribution still matters because of economies of scale- a solar panel on every roof is never as efficient as piling all the solar panels in the middle of the desert to avoid cloud problems. Tiling half of Nevada with solar cells is cheaper than installing them on every roof in America... but it means needing distribution again. So no, that doesn't go away.


Technology costs don't go away because solar cells have to be made. Some designs require rare minerals or advanced fabrication processes too. And unlike microchips, they require these materials in large quantity, which is a serious problem you can't magic around by shouting louder about how ADVANCED everything is going to get.


Also, SI, you're forgetting what the word "MODEL" means. "Model" means "a prediction, a mathematical construct that represents how I expect something to behave." You can't say something is on a certain 'model' for growth without first proving that it's the right model.

For example, suppose I say: "I got married a week ago. At this rate, within a year I'll have 52 wives." That's absurd and dumb, and it's entirely because I'm applying the wrong model. I'm assuming "one wife a week" is a linear thing that will happen every week. It's not.
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Waste management is a trivial problem for nations like China (which intend to solve it in a logical fashion); it's more problematic in denser nations like Japan and more NIMBY-ridden nations like the US.
As I said before, I don't even need to appeal to costs and logistics of nuclear issues. Public opinion alone crushes it.
Except of course in nations like China that still have 20-year planning horizons; it's an open question how public opinion on nuclear power will evolve over the next ten years.

And China alone is nearly 20% of the human race and probably a larger percentage of its future economic growth- so ignoring them is like ignoring the whole continent of South America or something in your calculations.
Which maybe we will some day- but the one constant of long range prediction is that it never turns out the way we plan. Electricity, airplanes, and computers all turned out to be at least as important as we predicted when they were first invented. But they're important in different ways; we use them differently.

See what I'm saying?
And how many people do you think completely agree solar will be the primary and vastly dominate energy infrastructure of our future?
You, and the people you listened to.

But I'd bet money that if we'd been born in the 1880s* instead of the 1980s, you'd be bouncing up and down telling me how by 1950 everyone would have their own personal airplane and the future would be the Air Age, so much so that we'd never need to touch the ground. Because horses and buggies are so obviously inefficient and automobile carriages are just silly, you'd say. ;)

Long range predictions are hard. Short range predictions are easy, but require facts, not wild fantasy.




Can you please prove that the adoption and advancement of solar power fits an exponential growth model? Are you sure it's not a linear function? Polynomial? How about a logistic function? LOTS of things fit logistic curves.

I know this is one of your pet topics, so I assume you have enough solid facts and reasoning to prove your assertions.
Sure. Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, Here, and Here.[/quote]So explain the context. Which of those graphs are of the past, which of them include projections? Which of them assume, say, that Solyndra wasn't going to screw up?

A picture is worth a thousand words, but nine tenths of them are gibberish without an explanation.
Solar is currently growing exponentially, and this feat is accomplished via government subsidies and the fact it's still (relatively) at small scale, so impressive growth at this level isn't surprising. Some countries, like Spain for example, have gotten kicked in the nuts financially because they completely underestimate how rapidly solar can be deployed and take advantage of such subsidies. Once solar power reaches grid parity (as I linked to in my first post in this thread) and subsidies no longer are required, economic incentive alone will drive solar growth into a much larger paradigm. This will be possible via numerous and rapid advances in photovoltaic technologies and energy storage systems, many of which I've cited before and many more that have cropped up since.
Are you sure that your perception that vast leaps and bounds are being made so fast in solar power is because it's advancing unusually fast? Or is it because you follow the field more closely?

A lot of fans in a given field think they're very close to huge breakthroughs. The researchers themselves are often less optimistic because they get to see their creations' feet of clay. The general public is also less optimistic, mostly from disappointment: no one believes in electricity 'too cheap to meter' anymore.
Now, your point about an observed exponential curve needs some clarification. The curve can exist or not, depending on what data across what time frame you plug into it, what resolution your graphing is at, etc. I assume you're well aware of this.

My poisiton is that solar is growing exponentially (I referenced multiple graphs above proving my point), it will continue to do so and will in fact explode in growth as the costs of solar equal and then become less than other energy sources (my first reference covered this). Economic incentive (making money) will drive this growth to unprecendented levels. Obviously this growth will reach a maximum growth capacity and will begin saturating the market as it approaches meeting all energy needs. Then the growth model becomes a logistic one as growth levels off and needs to only meet energy consumption growth.
A logistic curve is exponential... at first.

A big part of my question is where you expect the curve to level off, and why. What assumptions are you making about future technologies? Or present technologies? About the cost of energy storage for overnight and poor weather conditions? About whether solar cells will be concentrated or distributed?

Heck, you've probably already discussed this at length. But if you want to take a "weird nuclear thing" thread and go "DEATH TO THE ATOM! THE FUTURE IS THE SUN!" then I don't think I'm out of line in asking you to detail, in an organized and clear way, what you expect to happen. Can you answer the following question:

What do you think the future of solar energy looks like? Be detailed here.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by Singular Intellect »

Simon_Jester, you brought the absolutely correct point that this thread isn't about solar and that my position might come off as a anti nuclear tirade.

On that grounds I'll drop the subject, although if you wish to continue the discussion via PM or another thread, I'm open to it.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

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If you want to present an extended, coherent discussion of how you picture solar power evolving over time, that would be better.

So for example, you might have a few paragraphs on what "the solar power infrastructure of 2020/2030/2040" looks like in your mind. What technologies are in use, on what scale, who is and isn't using them.

And a few on what kind of growth curve you expect- do you expect the logistic curve for solar to really cap at 100% of demand? 80%? 50%? What number, and why?

And why do you expect solar to reliably beat all other forms of electricity? Is solar the only thing that benefits from economies of scale and improving technology? I would think not.

Things like that are a lot more appealing and respectable than "SOLAR IS EXPONENTIAL! IT IS THE FUTURE!" which is how your first posts were... sort of coming across.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by madd0ct0r »

we did that a few months ago.

I ended up trying to claculate baseloads for germany or something. SI did go some way to convince me that solar probably will probably dominate in decades to come, even though I still think 'uncertainty coeffecient' is a fair term for a still developing technology (ie, we can't use it tomorrow, unlike nukes)
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LaCroix
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by LaCroix »

Any reason why people prefer solar over wind? I mean drum-style wind turbines are easy to set up, comparably cheap, high efficiency, can be repaired instead of scrapped and replaced, and work at night and with overcast skies.

Is there any reason solar panels are technically better than wind turbines, or is it just "superior tech level"?
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madd0ct0r
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by madd0ct0r »

there's a hell of a lot more solar energy available.
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kc8tbe
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by kc8tbe »

Wind has higher operating costs than solar because of moving parts, although Wikipedia claims that wind has an overall lower cost. The fact that solar panels can be hidden better than wind turbines may be a contributing factor with NIMBYs. Both solar and wind are intermittent, so while it's true that the wind sometimes blows at night, you still need energy storage or a smart grid for both modalities. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_el ... _by_source

Also, this is pretty cool (not least of which because I know the engineer):

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57412 ... ns-stadium
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Magis
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by Magis »

Singular Intellect wrote:All other forms of energy generation will be effectively wiped out by solar. It's approaching grid parity far faster than people expected, and it will become cheaper soon after. This is the nature of exponential growth models.
Another "feature" of exponential growth models is that there is often no a priori reason to assume that the growth will remain exponential or that the exponent will stay constant. Wood burning energy generation probably fit an exponential growth model, too, but that doesn't dominate the world energy supply because new technology was developed that was better than burning wood in every conceivable way. And the people that developed that new technology probably didn't care that wood burning had previously followed some great exponential growth model.

Take the price per byte of computer memory as an example. This is something often touted by some people (such as kurzweil, who is presumably one of your idols), as a great example of the exponential growth of computational technology. In the two year period from 1957 to 1959, the $ per byte decreased by 83%, whereas in the two year period from 1998 to 2000, the $ per byte decreased by a factor of 28%. In the two year period from 2010 to 2012, the $ per byte decreased by a factor of 74%. How much will memory cost in ten years? I have no idea because that technology hasn't even been invented yet.

In the case of energy, nuclear power generation and wind generation are already better than solar so I can't see any technological argument (nor have I ever seen one presented) that could logically conclude that solar will become the dominant source of our energy in the future. Historical growth rate data does not constitute an argument.

There is no actual advantage to solar compared to wind or nuclear either in terms of cost, distribution or grid redundancy, material usage, land usage, or power density. And while solar energy costs may be decreasing, so too are the costs of other competing technologies. Whereas in one of your posts you attributed some of the growth of solar to government policies, you should be especially cautious when using that as a point in your favor. Government policies can change, and subsidies can disappear. In any case, the existence of a current subsidy does not help make a argument favor of the technology. If it did, then by analogy I could claim that corn must be a really great food because there's a subsidy for it. "Someday we will all survive on corn alone!"

As has been stated, this argument has been had in many threads, and (to my knowledge), there has never been a compelling argument for solar power that focused on the actual merits of the technology, but rather focused on growth rates (FYI, high growth rates are easily achievable when starting from zero), subsidies, and a misunderstanding of competing technologies.
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Re: New Method to Improve Uranium Extraction From the Ocean

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

We know that nuclear can provide 80% of the electrical power generation needs of a modern industrial country, because it does in France. If we could totally eliminate worldwide use of coal, which is possible when 80% of your electrical power comes from nuclear, we would go a long way toward reducing carbon production in the short term, which gives us with the leisure to experiment with other technologies that we don't presently have.

That said, I wasn't willing to bet my future on the nuclear industry; I'm in grad school studying Ocean Engineering/Naval Architecture now, which ironically means that if I do have a hand in the nuclear industry in the future it will be in seawater extraction of uranium. The politics are unfortunately horrible, and we can't ignore the reality of that as much as we might like to.
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