Vader's powers and abilities (also mind f***ing)

[Boeing 757]

Hey all,

Here is a question which has not really been touched upon all too much. I am wondering what Darth Vader has actually done that is so impressive enough that Sidious kept him around until the end as his right-hand man? I mean, sure, I deem Vader to be very high on the scale of Force-users, but what exactly has he been shown to do which others haven't already? He is the Chosen One, after all, so I would expect him to be capable of so much more than a run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight or Sith Lord.

Additionally, there was an old issue of Star Wars Insider in which Vader outright mind-f***ked a small unit of clones secluded away behind a door after they had rebelled. I am having some difficulty in finding the correct issue. Does anyone know by chance in which one that mini-story is featured? It was written by Karen Traviss back in 2003, I believe.

[fordlltwm]

Well as an enforcer he's quite effective with the whole force choke you into submission, he's able to block blaster bolts with a wave, plus his very presence is considered intimidating.

He's no good at politics since his standard operating procedure is to kill his rivals / people he disagrees with.

And even if palpy wanted to replace him, he's kinda gotten rid of most of the possible replacements, though he did train Mara Jade as a more subtle instrument for when the wrath of Vader would've been overkill.

He's also still a top notch pilot IIRC.

[Arawn Fenn]

I am having some difficulty in finding the correct issue. Does anyone know by chance in which one that mini-story is featured? It was written by Karen Traviss back in 2003, I believe.

It might be this from #85: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A_Two-Edged_Sword

[Jim Raynor]

Vader wasn't just ridiculously powerful, he was an investment. Palpatine had been preparing Anakin since he was a child. At the end of ROTS, Vader was a broken man with a dead wife and a burning hatred for the Jedi. Palpatine probably saw him as someone who was easy to manipulate.

In the movies, Anakin displayed far more raw talent than Obi-Wan did, managing jumps and drops during the Coruscant chase scene that Obi-Wan couldn't come close to doing. He was also on the offensive for most of the Mustafar duel, only losing because Obi-Wan used his ego and anger against him. Obi-Wan himself is a great duelist, who was clearly a step above General Grievous. In the Clone Wars cartoons, Grievous kills numerous Jedi and has several run in fear of him.

I haven't read too much of the EU, but I remember reading the Purge one-shot comic that was released shortly after ROTS. In that one, Vader is lured into a trap by eight Jedi Masters, one of whom was armed with a special cortosis sword that shorted out his lightsaber. Vader still took out most of them.

[Knife]

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."- Yoda

People get focused on jumping and lightsaber swinging too much. Vader was a classically trained Jedi, he was also extremely powerful in Force potential, and he was the 'chosen one'. I think Palpatine cared about all of that and not particularly how high Anakin could Force Jump or any particular Force 'spell'. It was potential in the Force and the fact that Anakin was the next 'poster boy' of the Jedi he was going to, not only steel, but set up for the downfall of the Jedi. Anakin was the 'chosen one' and yet we know that even Yoda kind of questions the interpreted roll of the 'chosen one' or at the very least thinks the prophecy may be off. The Jedi have built up this prophecy and Anakin to be the end all of the Jedi, and Palpatine has plottted to take that away from them. But since destiny and fate are major themes in Star Wars, I go with the idea that the Force set both the Jedi and Sith up. Palpatine was the agent of change and Anakin was the stopper of change, Luke just being the timed detonator for Anakin to do his job.

To kind of put a medieval bent to it, Anakin was touched by god to do a job, to do that job he needed to be powerful enough to stay alive to do it, powerful enough to attract the attention of Palpy to get the job, and powerful enough to do the job when it was time. Much like Palpatine was powerful enough to see the future so as to bring down the end of the Jedi and the Republic, but not see his own demise by the hand of his puppet. The Force made sure these two men had the power needed to do what the Force intended, to bring about balance.

So to me, it's not about how the Force let Anakin jump 38 meters instead of the standard Jedi 35 meters high. Or Anakin could cut through 1.5 times the amount of doors the Jedi training manual says a Jedi can. It is about potential, it's about touching fate and the universe. There are some pretty poignant moments in the ROTS novel about how Obi Wan becomes one with the Force and the ship, and the enemy, and the consoles, and the ... so forth and so on. Not about how he can read their minds, but he was them, and himself, he was the universe in that small section of space. That's the Jedi's true powers, IMHO, and why they can still hop about like superman but confide in each other that their abilities with the Force are diminished because of the Shroud of the Darkside.

[Arawn Fenn]

The Force made sure these two men had the power needed to do what the Force intended, to bring about balance.

Palpatine was not needed to bring about balance; quite the contrary. He was the impediment to balance. Even before TPM, he was involved in increasing the imbalance, which was toward the dark. The Jedi were not the ones unbalancing the Force. They were not the problem. The Sith were the problem. If Anakin had sided with Mace instead of Palpatine he could have fulfilled the prophecy in the Chancellor's office.

[Knife]

I disagree. The Republic was rotten to the core, with or without Palpy. If the Republic had fallen without Palpy, I believe it would have been long, hard, and very destructive. Palpy brought about order, and very rapidly swept away the bureaucracy of the Old Republic. Granted, it was all centered on him, and geared so he alone had the last word, but then that made his Empire fall even quicker at the end. In less than 30 years, a galactic civilization when from bloated, old, slow moving, rotten government, to all that shit being swept aside so one man could rule it all, to that one man being gone. Palpy is perhaps one of the biggest agents of change ever.

So how's does that relate to balance? In a galaxy where the good guys like the Republic were rotten to the core, no balance could be made. If the Republic would have gone through centuries of death throws, with lots and lots of civil wars, revolutions, large chunks breaking off into their own fiefdoms, etc... more and more destruction and strife and suffering would have happened. Enter Palpy who sweeps all that shit aside in a generation, and Vader who sweeps Palpy aside in an instant. The good guys are the good guys again, the bad guys are bad guys again, balance.

[Broken]

While the Old Republic was certainly not utopia, we also don't know how much of that was the result of the Banite Sith Order screwing with things. What, you thought they sat on their hands for a thousand years until Palpatine showed up? The Old Jedi Order was stagnant and out-dated, but still a positive influence. As for Anakin Skywalker, his birth is the only known example of the Force directly intervening in affairs without an agent. That's how threatening the Banite Sith were, that the Force itself acted against them and ended their lineage forever (no master or apprentice to carry on; even with holocrons I consider all later Sith to be little more then pretenders to the name).

As for Anakin and Palpatine acting as agents of change, I think that's very plausible. However, I don't think Anakin was meant to fall to the Dark Side, that's why Lucas has referred to that event as a tragedy rather then a necessary evil. The Dark Side of the Force is NOT the yin-yang to the force itself, nor are Sith just the evil cousins of the Jedi. Lucas, in an interview around TPM, called them and their actions as that of a cancer not a counter-balance. Perhaps in light of that, we should consider Anakin to be a medical poison, used in the hopes of killing the disease before the patient.

[Arawn Fenn]

I disagree. The Republic was rotten to the core, with or without Palpy. If the Republic had fallen without Palpy, I believe it would have been long, hard, and very destructive. Palpy brought about order, and very rapidly swept away the bureaucracy of the Old Republic.

Keep in mind that the Rebel Alliance is sometimes called the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" and that Lucas has said the Senate would be reestablished in the years following ROTJ. The Republic may have been bloated and somewhat blighted with corruption, but it was democracy. And as stated above, we don't know just how much of that corruption was promoted by the efforts of the Banites. Unlike the situation as depicted in KOTOR 2, we have no specific evidence that the Republic was destined to "fall" without Palpatine in the near term. It was simply a democracy with problems, like most democracies. The New Republic destined to emerge after ROTJ would undoubtedly fail to be spotless and perfect, just like its predecessor. Does that mean the Force would decree its destruction in the hope of creating something perfect? Hardly.

If the Republic would have gone through centuries of death throws, with lots and lots of civil wars, revolutions, large chunks breaking off into their own fiefdoms, etc... more and more destruction and strife and suffering would have happened.

Assuming any of that is true, what's to stop that from happening to the New Republic in its own time? The Separatist crisis, for example, was not something that occurred "naturally"; it was deliberately instigated by the Sith.

The good guys are the good guys again, the bad guys are bad guys again, balance.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Palpatine's rhetoric aside, the good guys are the good guys during the PT. And the bad guys were always bad guys. A plot involving bad guys taking over the government does not somehow mean that the government itself was the problem. The Sith, represented in the film era primarily by Palpatine, were the threat to the balance of the Force. The Jedi and the Republic were not, other than in the fact that their errors sometimes facilitated the advance of the dark. The balance of the Force is a balance between the light and dark sides of the Force. It is not somehow tantamount to any other kind of hypothetical "balance" that can be conceived simply by virtue of sharing a word. The imbalance in the Force was first created by the efforts of the master of Darth Tenebrous. It was further increased by the joint efforts of Plagueis and Palpatine. As such it was something created by the Sith, not by the Jedi or the Republic. It is important to remember that Lucas has never said that the Jedi unbalanced the Force. This is because the imbalance in the Force is one-dimensional, not two-dimensional. It is imbalanced toward the dark, despite the efforts of the Jedi.

The Dark Side of the Force is NOT the yin-yang to the force itself

The above is an accurate statement, given that the dark side is part of the Force itself. However, it is true that the dark side and the light side are analogues of yin and yang. Lucas has explicitly referred to yin and yang when discussing the Force, and he placed a yin-yang symbol in the sky during AOTC. The ( partial ) Taoist underpinnings of SW are well known; The Masks of God is an acknowledged influence on Lucas, and in describing the Force, Palpatine uses the phrase "The Great Mystery", which is right out of the Tao Te Ching. It is important to make a distinction between the Sith and the dark side itself. The Sith threaten the balance of the Force, and can be destroyed; the dark side is a natural and fundamental part of the Force.

[Knife]

Keep in mind that the Rebel Alliance is sometimes called the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" and that Lucas has said the Senate would be reestablished in the years following ROTJ. The Republic may have been bloated and somewhat blighted with corruption, but it was democracy. And as stated above, we don't know just how much of that corruption was promoted by the efforts of the Banites. Unlike the situation as depicted in KOTOR 2, we have no specific evidence that the Republic was destined to "fall" without Palpatine in the near term. It was simply a democracy with problems, like most democracies. The New Republic destined to emerge after ROTJ would undoubtedly fail to be spotless and perfect, just like its predecessor. Does that mean the Force would decree its destruction in the hope of creating something perfect? Hardly.

We know Palpatine expedited the fall of the Republic, that in itself reveals how rotten to the core the Government was. We are told how broken the senate is, and yet the senate is quicker at resolving issues than the courts. Beurocrates run the senate. Private companies are raising armies, battle hardened at that, to invade other member states. Yeah, Sideous had a hand in that, but you just can't hand wave it off that he Jedi mind tricked everyone to get those things done. Honest to god corruption and dysfunction allowed all that to happen. The PT takes every opportunity to tell the view how broken, bogged down, and corrupt the system is, including the Jedi. Yoda, the grand master, states in the movie how alarmed he is that the Jedi are too arrogant.

Assuming any of that is true, what's to stop that from happening to the New Republic in its own time? The Separatist crisis, for example, was not something that occurred "naturally"; it was deliberately instigated by the Sith.

It's thematic, which is open to opinion I guess. That said, I still contend that Sideous didn't create all the corruption and stagnation, that he only took advantage of it.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Palpatine's rhetoric aside, the good guys are the good guys during the PT.

The opening crawl indicated heroes on all sides, evil is everywhere. Palpatine isn't the source of all evil in the SW universe, just a particularly evil person himself. Clones aren't Jedi mind tricked into killing Jedi, just trained and made to dispassionately kill Jedi if ordered. Jedi, entering service to the Republic, is a good thing, but the Republic is rotten and old, Jedi being generals isn't bad per say, but killing millions in war is not good. They are keepers of the peace, not soldiers after all. Crushing an enemy into submission is not peace. Voting for safety and giving up freedom didn't make all the Senators evil per say, but giving up all those freedoms isn't good.

The OT is really a bunch of white and black situations, the PT is covered in grey. Like I said, it's thematic.

And the bad guys were always bad guys. A plot involving bad guys taking over the government does not somehow mean that the government itself was the problem.

The government was corrupt enough to allow Palpy to operate, the Jedi were arrogant enough to not see Palpy. It's a two way street.

The Sith, represented in the film era primarily by Palpatine, were the threat to the balance of the Force. The Jedi and the Republic were not, other than in the fact that their errors sometimes facilitated the advance of the dark. The balance of the Force is a balance between the light and dark sides of the Force. It is not somehow tantamount to any other kind of hypothetical "balance" that can be conceived simply by virtue of sharing a word. The imbalance in the Force was first created by the efforts of the master of Darth Tenebrous. It was further increased by the joint efforts of Plagueis and Palpatine. As such it was something created by the Sith, not by the Jedi or the Republic. It is important to remember that Lucas has never said that the Jedi unbalanced the Force. This is because the imbalance in the Force is one-dimensional, not two-dimensional. It is imbalanced toward the dark, despite the efforts of the Jedi.

I disagree. Corruption happened outside of Sith spells. Sith merely take advantage of situations. Not that Sideous can't Jedi mind trick someone to do something, but the scale he would have had to do that in the Senate would break SOD. Mearly being a good politician with precog would enable him to do what he did and not wave his hand at thousands, tens of thousands of beings. Besides which, in the end, balance was made, in the movies, when there was only one Jedi left and no Sith. But that Jedi had walked a close line to the dark side, and had rejected Jedi doctrine of no personal attachments. Balance was restored when both the Sith and Jedi were gone, this implies the Jedi were part of the problem. Similarly, both the Empire and the Republic were gone by the end of the movies, leaving people to choose what to do next, not be defined into two categories.

[Arawn Fenn]

We know Palpatine expedited the fall of the Republic, that in itself reveals how rotten to the core the Government was.

You can keep repeating "the Republic is rotten to the core" as many times as you want, but that doesn't necessarily make it a factual statement. Again, Palpatine and the Sith created the fall of the Republic. There is no actual evidence that the Republic was bound to fall on its own. He likely would have been able to do what he did regardless of the level of corruption present. This is partly because he was legitimately elected to a position of power.

Yeah, Sideous had a hand in that

Massive understatement. The entire situation was planned and managed by the Sith.

but you just can't hand wave it off that he Jedi mind tricked everyone to get those things done.

I never said the Jedi mind tricked everyone.

Yoda, the grand master, states in the movie how alarmed he is that the Jedi are too arrogant.

Arrogant is not the same as corrupt. Of course the Jedi are arrogant - they're a superpowered and often unappreciated police force. Some of that goes with the territory. It merely reflects the fact that they are not perfect, and we really wouldn't expect them to be. The "mistake" of the Jedi in this context was to attach themselves to the Republic, such that they are thought to be tied to any existing corruption via guilt-by-association. But even alleged corruption in the Republic isn't an imbalance in the Force.

Clones aren't Jedi mind tricked into killing Jedi, just trained and made to dispassionately kill Jedi if ordered.

So what? The whole existence of the army is a Sith plan in the first place.

Jedi being generals isn't bad per say, but killing millions in war is not good. They are keepers of the peace, not soldiers after all.

The Jedi were manipulated into fighting a war to preserve the Republic. This doesn't make them corrupt. It results from their attachment to the Republic. You can't blame them for the no-win scenario they were placed in by the Sith.

The government was corrupt enough to allow Palpy to operate

Again, what allowed Palpatine to operate was getting elected to a position of power, along with his own free will. I'm sure his schemes were facilitated by corruption, but they did not depend upon the Republic being irredeemably corrupt. They primarily utilized corrupt groups like the Trade Federation which do not represent the Republic as a whole.

the Jedi were arrogant enough to not see Palpy.

It is only your assumption that arrogance was the reason they did not "see" him. AOTC says outright that the dark side of the Force clouds their vision. And in case you misunderstand, that does not mean that they are on the dark side; it means their vision is being clouded by an external source. Several other factors may be relevant: Palpatine is surely smart enough to not use the Force while in their presence, while the Banite Sith know a way to conceal one's Force strength. By ROTS, however, they could see that the dark side of the Force surrounded him.

Corruption happened outside of Sith spells. Sith merely take advantage of situations.

Corruption is not the imbalance in the Force. Sith don't just take advantage of situations; they are also capable of creating situations. Why wouldn't they be?

Not that Sideous can't Jedi mind trick someone to do something, but the scale he would have had to do that in the Senate would break SOD.

I never said that Palpatine mind tricked the whole Senate. As we see in real world politics, it doesn't take the Force to get a lot of people to go along with you.

Besides which, in the end, balance was made, in the movies, when there was only one Jedi left and no Sith.

Which is entirely consistent with what I'm saying.

But that Jedi had walked a close line to the dark side

Fighting does that, and the Jedi were compelled to fight at times, in defense of others ( including the Republic ). As such, the Jedi in general are really no closer to the dark side than would be expected of them. They are attempting to do what they believe to be the right thing. You have outliers like Krell, but that still wouldn't apply to the Jedi in general. And once again, they were drawn into a war to preserve the Republic which was planned and orchestrated by the Sith. It does not make sense to assume that this somehow shows the Jedi were turning dark or corrupted.

and had rejected Jedi doctrine of no personal attachments.

Completely false. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever.

Balance was restored when both the Sith and Jedi were gone, this implies the Jedi were part of the problem.

Wrong. You're contradicting yourself. You already said that balance is achieved when there is one Jedi. The fact that the rest of the Jedi were gone at that point is incidental to balance. In other words, if we suppose for the sake of argument that the destruction of the Sith is the only thing required for balance, then if both the Sith and Jedi are destroyed balance is still achieved, because what was required was done, and something that wasn't required was also done, which didn't change the result. Thus, both the Jedi and Sith being gone does not imply the Jedi were part of the problem, because it was never said that the Jedi had to be gone for balance to be achieved. Lucas never said any such thing when discussing the issue; he only talked about the Sith. As Stover said, Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy in the Chancellor's office. We know that the imbalance was started in the first place by a Sith creating a rend in the fabric of the Force, and that two Sith later affected the Force to shift the balance further. This shows that the problem of the imbalance in the Force ultimately had nothing to do with the Jedi and was really all about the Sith.

Similarly, both the Empire and the Republic were gone by the end of the movies

However, at the end of the movies, the Republic and the Jedi are both about to come back.

[Darth Tedious]

and had rejected Jedi doctrine of no personal attachments.

Completely false. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever.

Because Luke totally didn't go to Bespin to rescue his friends (against all better advice)?

[Knife]

and had rejected Jedi doctrine of no personal attachments.

Completely false. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever.

Because Luke totally didn't go to Bespin to rescue his friends (against all better advice)?

Let alone go back against Vader, not to kill him, but to save him. Or, engage Vader when his sister was brought into the mix. Luke is not a classically trained Jedi, you can argue he isn't a Jedi at all then, at least not in most ways a Jedi of the Old Republic would have thought of. Yoda didn't train him with all the baggage, and Luke rejected dispassion when it came to making choices about his friends, family, and loved ones. Personal attachments made him stronger, let him resist the Dark Side. This is very anti Jedi doctrine. The old order is gone, for the good.

[Arawn Fenn]

I misread that line as "the Jedi" instead of "that Jedi".

[Havok]

He likely would have been able to do what he did regardless of the level of corruption present.

Please provide proof of this.

[Havok]

He's no good at politics since his standard operating procedure is to kill his rivals / people he disagrees with.

Bullshit. Go watch the movies again and pay attention to what is said and the context of the situations and please point out where there are "politics" or simple "he disagrees" with Vader present.

[fordlltwm]

He's no good at politics since his standard operating procedure is to kill his rivals / people he disagrees with.

Bullshit. Go watch the movies again and pay attention to what is said and the context of the situations and please point out where there are "politics" or simple "he disagrees" with Vader present.

In the films, true it's people who fail him who die.

Since the thread wasn't one yours Havok I assumed it was safe to think of things (in the EU) such as Shadows of the Empire where he plans (and succeeds) in killing his main rival Prince Xisor (sp).

[Arawn Fenn]

He likely would have been able to do what he did regardless of the level of corruption present.

Please provide proof of this.

As I said, his primary tool was getting elected to public office. He also used groups such as the Trade Federation, which don't represent the level of corruption endemic to the Republic as a whole.

[Darth Tedious]

So, how would he have gotten himself elected without utilising groups like the TF?

[Channel72]

I agree with Arawn Fenn. Palpatine is portrayed as a master manipulator with God-like foresight and political aptitude, or at least several strokes of ridiculously good luck. The Republic wasn't really that broken when Palpatine decided to start pulling the strings here and there to get himself elected as Chancellor.

Let's look at his overall plan (or at least the parts of his plan we know about from the movies):

(1) Contact Trade Federation and offer them some incentive to invade his home planet so the Senate will look useless
(2) Use the sympathy for Naboo to get elected Chancellor
(3) Recruit Count Dooku and pay some aliens to start building a clone army
(4) Get Count Dooku to use his charisma to spew anti-government rhetoric and rally the corporations behind an anti-Republic secessionist movement probably driven by resentment over government regulation or taxes
(5) Have the Republic go to war with Dooku's separatists
(6) Use the Republic army to wipe out the Jedi when the opportunity arises (since I guess Palpatine knew the Jedi would eventually more or less figure out what's going on and attempt a coup)
(7) Sit back and relax in a brand new Death Star as Emperor of everything

None of this plan really required any pre-existent corruption within the Republic. Yeah, there were corrupt elements in the Republic, just like any other government. Although, the way the stories are written, it is the corporate element, rather than the Republic government itself, that is portrayed as most corrupt and easily manipulated. The entire Clone Wars was basically fought over corporate deregulation, it seems. (Again, going just by the movies.)

But the Republic government itself isn't portrayed as hopelessly corrupt; in the first movie, Palpatine tries to sell Amidala the idea that the Senate is so "in the tank" for the Trade Federation that her testimony will be useless - but there's nothing that indicates this isn't simply Palpatine manipulating a naive 14-year old. In reality, the Republic Senate was quite responsive to Amidala's plight, and immediately backed her "Vote of no Confidence". Yes, I'm sure some Senators were paid off by Trade Federation officials, but it's not like the government was hopelessly beholden to corporate interests. In fact, the opposite is true since ultimately the Republic sided against the Trade Federation, and then went to war against the other corporations. Besides, the whole reason Dooku was likely able to recruit so many corporate entities to his cause was precisely because the Republic wasn't corrupt enough to just bow to corporate interests.

Palpatine is just a god-like master manipulator, and he really didn't need any pre-existent government-level corruption to pull off his whole scheme. If anything, he relied more on elements of corporate greed which existed apart from the Republic government.

[Jim Raynor]

At best, the Republic ridiculously weak and incompetent. The big corporations were the biggest symbols of its corruption, but I don't think they should be separated from the whole. Heartless, out of control businesses with political influence are often brought up when people talk about government corruption in real life. The Trade Federation is the Republic. The rest of the Republic either agreed with it, tolerated it, or we're seemingly powerless against it.

And the Senate really wasn't responsive to the situation on Naboo. The opening text states that it "endlessly debates" things. This is ridiculous, and immediately gave me the impression that it was a toothless and disinterested organization that was all talk, like the UN or worse, the League of Nations. Only this was the central, supposedly unified government of a single entity. Knife is right that fiefdoms and infighting were being tolerated. The Republic was standing by and refusing to do its most basic duty, which was to protect the security of its own citizens. It's idea of handling things was to stand on the sidelines while Naboo was blockaded, then question how badly it was being mistreated even after all comms were jammed and the queen herself was saying that they had been invaded. Instead of just telling the TF to knock it off right there, or sending some military (power that the TF apparently fears, but which the Republic is unwilling to muster until literally a decade later) or law enforcement there to take control of things, they wanted to send a "committee." A word that instantly connotes beauracracy and red tape. They were questioning the victim despite clear evidence of aggression, and they were doing that at the request of the aggressor. It's worse than the UN's inaction over Syria (which Syrian supporters are a part of), sending "monitors" to monitor a massacre they know is going on. This is the Republic refusing to police it's own internal territory.

Thematically, the old ways, both Republic and Jedi, had to go. In-universe, none of this excuses Palpatine or justifies what he did. Had Palpatine been a better man, he might have used his ability to fix the system instead of make it worse. I think there's a difference between what was literally being shown, and the movies' thematic point.

[Channel72]

And the Senate really wasn't responsive to the situation on Naboo. The opening text states that it "endlessly debates" things. This is ridiculous, and immediately gave me the impression that it was a toothless and disinterested organization that was all talk, like the UN or worse, the League of Nations. Only this was the central, supposedly unified government of a single entity. Knife is right that fiefdoms and infighting were being tolerated. The Republic was standing by and refusing to do its most basic duty, which was to protect the security of its own citizens. It's idea of handling things was to stand on the sidelines while Naboo was blockaded, then question how badly it was being mistreated even after all comms were jammed and the queen herself was saying that they had been invaded. Instead of just telling the TF to knock it off right there, or sending some military (power that the TF apparently fears, but which the Republic is unwilling to muster until literally a decade later) or law enforcement there to take control of things, they wanted to send a "committee." A word that instantly connotes beauracracy and red tape. They were questioning the victim despite clear evidence of aggression, and they were doing that at the request of the aggressor. It's worse than the UN's inaction over Syria (which Syrian supporters are a part of), sending "monitors" to monitor a massacre they know is going on. This is the Republic refusing to police it's own internal territory.

Yes, but the movies leave a lot of room for interpretation here. You see, it's not like Palpatine took advantage of some situation which was happening naturally. Palpatine created the situation. The Trade Federation wasn't like "fuck the Senate and fuck Naboo, we'll do whatever we want." The Trade Federation was actually quite fearful of the law, and had to be constantly goaded by Palpatine into blatantly defying the Senate.

You could argue that even though Palpatine manufactured the situation, it still reveals that in the event of a crisis, the Senate is weak and overly beauracratic. That's a fair point, but who knows how much of the internal dissent within the Senate was also manufactured by Palpatine pulling the strings? We don't really know. But from the minimal information the movie gives us, the Republic didn't come across as that particularly ineffective and corrupt. Remember, the Senate initially knew nothing about an invasion or any atrocities being committed. As far as they were concerned, the whole issue was over a shipping blockade and a tax dispute. There wasn't really a need for military intervention just yet. The Senate probably hoped to resolve the matter using diplomacy, which, far from being "overly beauracratic", is just good politics.

Then, when Amidala herself finally testified before the Senate, the Trade Federation Senator outright denied the allegations. (The Queen inexplicably failed to present forensic evidence, like videos or computer-logs, but I'll spare you that endless debate again.) So exactly what was Valorum supposed to do, other than send an independent committee to investigate the situation?

And in fact, in the end, the system worked. The Senate removed Valorum for his failure to act more aggressively against the Trade Federation, and installed Palpatine. Palpatine then took some sort of army or task force to Naboo, and put a stop to the invasion. So, if anything, you could argue that rather than relying on the weakness and beauracracy of the Republic, Palpatine's master scheme relied on the effectiveness of the Republic. His scheme required that Valorum be made to look useless and voted out of power - which is an example of the system working. (Note that Amidala's own vigilante effort to end the invasion is not relevant here, because whether or not she succeeded with that, Palpatine still would have taken control of the situation and arrested Nute Gunray in the end.)

So I really don't see in any of this how the Republic government is so hopelessly corrupt or beholden to Trade Federation interests. If anything, it just shows what a master manipulator Palpatine is.

[Jim Raynor]

We aren't told how much of the galaxy's problems originated from Palpatine, but as of the first movie he was "just" the senator of one minor world. He didn't create the TF and it's greed, and he couldn't have been behind every other senator.

I see no way to excuse the Senate's inaction, at all. They are the central government, they should set the rules. We don't see the US government tolerating warfare between it's own states. Also, the senate knew what was going on, unless we want to say that they were even more clueless than they were portrayed. In real life, with technology far more primitive than SW's instant holonet, I can keep up with the news in every other continent of the world. Naboo gets blockaded, then jammed into complete silence (ie cyber warfare), and the Senators can honestly act innocent and think that nothing's going on? Those are acts of war, even without any invasion that was obviously happening. There's no reason to think that Padme went all that way just to lie to them, when she hadn't even asked for anything other than her planet's right to security.

I can't stress enough how absurd the situation was. Parts of the same republic should not be at war with each other. The senate should not be micromanaging the crisis to the point that every decision goes up for endless debate and voting. They're the legislature, only they seem to have seized all the decision making power. And if they were to micromanage, they shouldn't be so lazy about it.

The executive, who seems to be the chancellor, should not have to go before them for every little thing. He should not have to lie to them in order to deploy Jedi, whose entire job is to keep the peace. The chancellor seemed to be a weak position held by an even weaker man.

Why is everything being done by idiots at the top? There should be law enforcement agencies, regulators, and even military all calling the chancellor and telling him to approve intervention because it's their job. They probably shouldn't even have to go to him for every decision if its so clear cut. We get no indication of concern or interest from the top, but even worse there is almost no concern from the bottom. The entire system is failing to perform its duties, if these systems even exist in the republic.

The committee is ridiculous, without even going into the point that it was a TF suggestion likely to be staffed by people in the TF's pocket. Why does the central government have to slowly pick a few senators, or senator's lackies, and physically send them to Naboo? Why doesn't anyone CALL Naboo? Aren't they curious? Shouldn't the chancellor or the Naboo senator be able to call up the Naboo governor and ask what's up? Oh yeah the senator actually was talking to Naboo onscreen, and was shown to be jammed out.

So the republic needs to physically inspect the planet...meaning that they legitimize the Trade Fed's cyber warfare and accept its right to restrict the central government's actions. This is like the president and congress standing by while a private company blocks all roads and phone calls into a state. It's stupid. There is no debate to be had there, and no need to be diplomatic. The central government should not be bullied by private thugs in the employ of its own subordinate unit.

A scenario like this would never occur in a functional, stable nation. This is what happens in third world hell holes on the verge of collapse.

If anything, I thought the movie did more than enough to make the Republic lok dysfunctional. Everyone from the senators to the chancellor and the silent (nonexistent?) government agencies looked like a bunch of useless idiots or corrupt do-nothings. It wasn't anywhere close to acceptable.

[Channel72]

We aren't told how much of the galaxy's problems originated from Palpatine, but as of the first movie he was "just" the senator of one minor world. He didn't create the TF and it's greed, and he couldn't have been behind every other senator.

A Senator of a minor world yeah, and also an evil sorcerer with supernatural foresight and unspecified abilities to manipulate other beings into doing his will. He didn't create the TF, but without him they would never have dared to pull something like blockading Naboo.

I see no way to excuse the Senate's inaction, at all. They are the central government, they should set the rules. We don't see the US government tolerating warfare between it's own states. Also, the senate knew what was going on, unless we want to say that they were even more clueless than they were portrayed. In real life, with technology far more primitive than SW's instant holonet, I can keep up with the news in every other continent of the world. Naboo gets blockaded, then jammed into complete silence (ie cyber warfare), and the Senators can honestly act innocent and think that nothing's going on? Those are acts of war, even without any invasion that was obviously happening. There's no reason to think that Padme went all that way just to lie to them, when she hadn't even asked for anything other than her planet's right to security.

All this relies on too many assumptions and a possibly faulty analogy between the Republic Senate and the United States. It's hard to come up with a nice, real-world analogue for the Republic Senate, since it includes member worlds, member systems, corporations, and who knows what other types of regional entities. Given the little information we get about local government on Naboo, it seems member worlds keep a significant amount of autonomy - much more than is granted individual states in the US. Your argument also relies on many assumptions about the relationship between the Trade Federation and the Republic. The TF could be a private corporation, but it has Senate represenation so maybe it's closer to something like the US Postal Service. I don't know, but you can't really assume that the Republic should have just immediately launched a military operation against one of its own members (the Trade Federation), when all they knew was that the TF blockaded Naboo over a "trivial" dispute (as Qui-Gon called it.)

Once communications were cut off, things got a bit fishy, but that only happened later, after the Jedi arrived. From the time communications were cut off to the time Amidala herself arrived on Coruscant was only a few days, I think. So it's not like the Senate had much time to consider the implications of a communications black out. Real world coalitions like the UN take much longer to reach resolution about much more serious political situations. And again, when Amidala finally showed up, the Trade Federation just denied all allegations; so it was her word against their word. Why would she lie, you ask? Who knows - but why should they take the word of one Senator over another, especially when it's unlikely the Trade Federation would ever do something so bold as to invade a planet? Sending a committee to Naboo seems pretty reasonable to me. It's only a few hours at Star Wars travel times.

As for why they don't just call Naboo - that's a good point. They never address the communications blackout at all. But assuming they tried to contact Naboo and failed, I would imagine sending a team there to investigate would be a good start.

You can also ask why the Senate didn't just have the Jedi testify, or check Amidala's computer logs, or whatever - I don't know. We've discussed that before, and it's bizarre to me as well. I never interpreted all of that as the movie attempting to show how fucked up the Senate is; it just seemed so incoherent that I've always assumed it was just an out-of-Universe writing failure. But considering that ultimately the Senate actually sided with Amidala, and fixed the Trade Federation problem pretty quickly, I don't think it makes much sense to argue that the Senate is really that corrupt and/or ineffective, much less that they're hopelessly beholden to the interests of the Trade Federation.

[Arawn Fenn]

To be fair, the Senate didn't fix the Trade Federation problem; this was accomplished by the actions of the protagonists, Anakin especially.