Star trek time travel, the Grandfather Clause in reverse.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-08-22 04:01pm

I know most people hate Voyager. However, it is as cannon as Phantom Menace.

http://www.treknews.com/deltablues/futuresend1.html
http://www.treknews.com/deltablues/futuresend2.html

In essence, in it it was revealed that the technological boom that we've all been so familiar with is the direct result of a 29th century shuttlecraft falling into the past. It's sort of like the Grandfather Paradox, but in reverse. If there was originally a dimension in which there was no shuttlecraft falling into the past, then there would be no tecnological boom, and therefore no shuttlecraft fell into the past. But it DID. Because it was possible to build that shuttle, because of the 20th century tech boom, which was CAUSED by the shuttle.

Uh . . . get it?

I think it might possibly go up against the alternate universe theory, but I could be wrong. Any ideas?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-22 04:18pm

Star Trek evades this problem by saying that everytime someone does time travel, a new timeline is created.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 04:28pm

Cpt_Frank: They switch though, Year of hell suggests the actual timeline is altered as does the Borg queens comments in Endgame.
Also the entire DS9 Bell Riots 2 parter also agrees with the actual timeline being changed.

On the other hand worfs statements to his future soin imply what you are saying but the fact that his son came back implies he agrees with the other method.

In conclusion B&B are idiots and in another stunning developement the sky is blue not to mention rain is wet.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-22 06:20pm

TheDarkling wrote:Cpt_Frank: They switch though, Year of hell suggests the actual timeline is altered as does the Borg queens comments in Endgame.
Also the entire DS9 Bell Riots 2 parter also agrees with the actual timeline being changed.

On the other hand worfs statements to his future soin imply what you are saying but the fact that his son came back implies he agrees with the other method.

In conclusion B&B are idiots and in another stunning developement the sky is blue not to mention rain is wet.

* The "multiple timelines" idea can rationalize all of these apparent contradictions.
* The "single timeline" idea cannot.
* Therefore, "multiple timelines" = most valid theory.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 06:29pm

Ok then explain who it rationalizes them since we actually see time alter around voyager and that the Borg queen seems to think that once Janeway dies in the past the her future will alter, its the same in First contact where the Ent also witnesses time change (also the borgs plan relied on hte future altering).

Also the multiple timeline theory doesnt explain the example this thread is based upon unless the shuttle that originally came back was from adifferent federation (not the one based upon which we know) and in that case the first shuttle could have come back from the 35th century which altered time so htat the feds changed yet somehow by a seeming miracle a shuttle comes back again except this time it came from 29th.

In short the multiple theory doesnt work with the example posted by the thread all the examples I posted.

The examples I posted fit with the single theory but not the thread example which is just pure B&B idiocy, not to mention that the eugenics wars should have been in fullswing at that point in history.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 06:33pm

Of course the Multiple Timelines theory works, if you know the actual theory.

'Time Changing' is simply shifting between timelines.

It also easily explains Future's End. First there is a timeline where the Aeon is fine and so is Voyager. Then Voyager goes back, and the Aeon follows, and the whole cycle is set up to repeat until one timeline is made where things go right.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 06:43pm

Yes I understand that however why would the Ent-E (for example) suddenly switch time lines? yet the wake keeps them inside their own but the sensor see another timestream.

They should stay in their own time stream, I realise you mean the Ent-E is duplicated but that makes time travel redundant then because why should the Borg go back and alter histroy when theres no advantage for them or why should the Feds alter time back to how it was since the timestream they came from already exists (the pre branching) and there altering the timeline simply creates another branching but they dont prevent the borgified timestream?

Also this would mean that Voyagers temporal shields prevented them from switching time streams but this would then mean that a bunch of timestreams existed without a Voyager in them since Voyager transcends the timestreams.

We also have the Ent situation where smoeone from the Future is altering the past but it eventually leads to his own destruction (or that of his equipment) then some people who are temporally shielded come along and restore the proper timeline - the question is why bother since the proper timeline already exists.

Since I have given myself a headache im going to go lie down.

This also doesnt solve the problem because if the shuttle hadnt come back the Feds wouldnt exist however the Feds must exist for the shuttle to come back.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 06:50pm

The E-E was never anchored in it's own timeline.. It was simply dragged along with the Sphere into a third timestream(First is normal, second borgified, third the one that comes from First Contact and becomes Archer's universe).

And yes, the Voyager, while it's Temporal Shields were up, was transcending timelines and wasn't present in several. Strange idea, but it's technobabble.

As to why the Borg would go back in time? The Queen was on that Cube, Darkling. She was going to die there, over Earth. It was an escape, not a instant-win for that Collective. It was an act of cowardice by the Queen.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 07:06pm

While I believe multiple timelines explain these temporal headaches well. perhaps the Aeon was predestiny, the Aeon existed to crash into the past because it already happened, and it was merely fulfilling it's role in history.
Or something.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 07:09pm

The queen was on the cube that first attacked earth and she escaped that.
She also disapeared into the past yet was still around during Voy, my guess is that the queen is stored within the collective and once she is killed the backup is put into a new body.

Just my theory but I cant think of another good one.

You still havent answered about the time shuttle - you cant can you?

admit the mania of B&B

.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 07:10pm

TheDarkling wrote:The queen was on the cube that first attacked earth and she escaped that.
She also disapeared into the past yet was still around during Voy, my guess is that the queen is stored within the collective and once she is killed the backup is put into a new body.

Just my theory but I cant think of another good one.

You still havent answered about the time shuttle - you cant can you? admit the mania of B&B .

Which time shuttle? The one in Time's Arrow, which has Picard aboard but Picard doesn't go onto it? That's obviously alternate timelines, because otherwise there'd be no Picard!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 07:13pm

No the one from the Voy episode where the Aeon basically creates itself, or when Datas hgead being found leads to his head being placed to be found.

Times arrows the one with datas head isnt it? you mean time squared right?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 07:17pm

TheDarkling wrote:No the one from the Voy episode where the Aeon basically creates itself, or when Datas hgead being found leads to his head being placed to be found.

Times arrows the one with datas head isnt it? you mean time squared right?

One of the two...

Data's head is a case of multiple timelines leading to the same conclusion with tiny variations. It's rough to explain, author Larry Niven did it best... Basically the same set of events keep happening. But you can break the loop, if, for example, Data saw his head and then stayed away from time distortions. Then the next timeline 'over' doesn't have his head.

I don't know the VOY episode you mean....

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 07:22pm

Its basically like this.

A ship from the future crashes on earth.
The modern computer revolution happens.
The Federation happens.
Earth is destroyed.
The ship is dispatched to the past.
A ship from the future crashes on earth.

Branch off into another time stream - the Feds prevent earths destruction.

Now how could the ship crash in the past if it never existed, basically the time ship cant exist without the fact that it crashed back in the past but in the original timeline how did the shuttle get created because its existence caused its existence.

Mind bending stuff.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 07:44pm

TheDarkling wrote:Its basically like this.

A ship from the future crashes on earth.
The modern computer revolution happens.
The Federation happens.
Earth is destroyed.
The ship is dispatched to the past.
A ship from the future crashes on earth.

Branch off into another time stream - the Feds prevent earths destruction.

Now how could the ship crash in the past if it never existed, basically the time ship cant exist without the fact that it crashed back in the past but in the original timeline how did the shuttle get created because its existence caused its existence.

Mind bending stuff.

Because the original crash is from a timeline where none of that happened. But it kept looping across timelines, like I explained for Data's head.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 07:49pm

Except the shuttle was created by the events it caused unless its like the example I used above.

Shuttle was created later in time (due to no tech explosion) but it crashes and cause a branch off the creates the current timeline and amazingly the exact same thing happens with the shuttle except earlier in time after this point the timeline is stable because the cause and effect loop is now in place but as I said above when I gave this theory it strecthes crediability.

Well would you look at that I came up with a temporal theory all on my own and some authority actually came up wioth the same theory hmmm I wish I had an agent.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-22 07:50pm

TheDarkling wrote:Except the shuttle was created by the events it caused unless its like the example I used above.

Shuttle was created later in time (due to no tech explosion) but it crashes and cause a branch off the creates the current timeline and amazingly the exact same thing happens with the shuttle except earlier in time after this point the timeline is stable because the cause and effect loop is now in place but as I said above when I gave this theory it strecthes crediability.

Well would you look at that I came up with a temporal theory all on my own and some authority actually came up wioth the same theory hmmm I wish I had an agent.

But the same can be applied to multiple timelines, none of them changing. Sorry.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-22 08:04pm

The thing with the multiple timeline is that the individuals going between one to another, is that as long as they jump into timeline with close enough to what they believe is how events should happen, they'll never observe themselves as jumping between timelines.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-22 08:06pm

Huh? I wasnt arguing against multiple timelines I was just saying thats the only way I could see such events happening.

I do however see no reason for multiple timelines if you see time as linear I will give an example.

Guy comes from future.
Guy kills his grandfather.
Guys no longer exists.

Now in the convention paaradox this causes his grandfather to live and so on however I have never understood why.

He has killed his grandfather and thus will never be born however once he removed himself from the actual timeline to go back into that same timeline he is no longer affected by changes to the unaltered future.

I didnt explain that very well hmm.

Original timeline

1.Grandfather - 2.guy - 3.guy leaves time

New timeline

5.Guy kills Grandfather - 5.Guy never born.

However since the guy has moved out of time at 3 he affects 4 thus 3 doesnt happen yet since he already exist in time at 4 what does it matter.

Why is it assumed that events at 3 will affect the guy at 4 - I always assumed that whatever technology that allowed him to travel back in time placed him in the past.

Grrrr I just cant seem to get my point across.

Basically the changes at 4 need not retroactively affect the guy since he already exists out of time now anyway.

I understand the multiple timeline theory works just aswell but I just never saw a need for it when he above works well enough.

Invader ZIm · Post by **Invader ZIm** » 2002-08-23 01:28am

You would think that multiple timelines would be a violation of conservation of Mass. Take ST:FC for example...

Universe #1 (Timeline #1)
Borg sphere creates a "time hole" and moves thru it.
The E-E gives chase and also moves thru the hole.
Both ships vanish, leaving the remaining SF captians scratching their heads.

If the sum mass of Universe #1 is equal to MU1. MU1 is now slightly smaller than it was before the E-E and Borg Sphere meandered off. Both ships where not converted to anything thus the 1st violation of mass conservation.

Universe #2 (Timeline #2)
Bothe the E-E and Borg Sphere suddenly appear in the night sky over pre-Federation Earth. What mass from Universe #2 was used to form the ships? Thus leading to the second violation of mass conservation.

Finally the whole error is compounded by the E-E leaving the Second Universes Timeline at the end of the film. Effectively commiting two more violations of basic principals.

VICTORY! VICTORY FOR ZIM!

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-08-23 02:24am

Multiple timelines vs. Grandfather Paradox

Timeline #1
2000 AD Grandfather born
2025 AD Grandfather sires father
2050 AD Father sires You
2075 AD You travel to timeline two

Timeline #2
2000 AD Grandfather born
2020 AD You arrive
2021 AD You kill grandfather

End of story.

Single timeline vs. 29th Century Paradox

19xx AD Shuttle crashes in the past, found by hippie. Hippie causes computer revolution
3001 AD 29th Century Federation made possible by computer revolution. Otherwise Romulans would have conquered earth.
30xx AD Temporal explosion. Federation sends shuttlecraft back in time, but it crashes in 1950

The event on 30xx AD causes the event in 19xx AD. Yet the event in 30xx AD is essencially dependant on the event on 19xx. If one uses the alternate timeline theory then the above would be Timeline #2. In that case then Timeline #1 would be.

19xx AD Hippie smokes pot.
3001 AD Federation comquered by Romulans centuries ago.
30xx AD There is no shuttle to send back.

In which case, where the heck did the shuttle in Timeline #2 come from?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-23 05:19am

Yogi: It just happens that somehow the feds werent taken over by the romulans

It the same with datas head, finding datas head causes them to investigate a planet that leads to datas had being lost in time.
In the original timeline they must have investigated the timetravel planet for some other reason than datas head being found but once they investigated datas head got lost and the loop is set in place.

I explain the shuttle example in a previous post in more detail.