Gabe Newell: Windows 8 is a 'catastrophe' for PC biz

[someone_else]

A Thinkpad T- or X2x0-series is reasonably well-built and not horribly expensive (though the T-series has had corners cut as Lenovo has to fight the same price war everyone else does). Even for a basic Office/Web machine I want it to be a nice experience. I am fortunate enough that I can afford so (I understand not everyone can).

I generally suggest most people to not look for the SCREAMING NEWEST model. Buy the best laptops from a year or two ago. After a year or two it's pretty apparent what was crap and what wasn't in forums and other sites, price went down by 100 or more euros, any fix for their shit is out, while the specs aren't going to be horribly different anyway. Please note, I'm not saying "used", I say new stuff. So you can still send it back at least to the seller if it malfunctions.

For example, this Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E420 seems like a much better deal for a office-web machine even if it's not MADE YESTERDAY. here on Amazon

But you can go far lower if you pick in the consumer-laptop pool.

The experience is atrocious (with first-hand experience). (netbooks with dual-core atoms)

You have always used macs and professional stuff. Of course they look like crap to you. But they run decently it if you wait a few dozen seconds for Office and don't use Firefox.
I've noticed that once you nuked that farce of Starter and loaded whatever other Win7 they run much much better.

Of course they are now obsolete due to tablets, as you said.

Even in a laptop bag (and most laptop bags or sleeves are not well designed for actually protecting laptops!) those laptops face all sorts of stress.

Rigid bags all the way (really rigid, not just "a bit harder than soft bags" things that disguise themselves as rigid bags), and there must be enough fluff inside to keep the machine completely immobile. The whole point of the bag is being trashed instead of the lappy.

As it happens, better ThinkPads are (or were) designed specifically so that spilt liquid into the keyboard could naturally drain and not fry the machine

Afaik, it's a optional feature of their high-end models.

When I'm talking of really worth the money spent in protection I'm thinking of Toughbooks from Panasonic. While the fully-rugged line is over-the-top in both price and actual need, their semi-rugged line is rugged enough and cheap enough to acutally be worth their price imho.

Retina isn't bullshit (it should be the minimum standard)

While I also think Retina is overkill, I second the sentiment. Hunting down a computer that does not have a crappy screen is a pain in the ass.

I'm curious about the more ignorant posters in this thread - does Apple's success both brand wise and market wise threaten you? Why do you care?

You enjoy looking superior, isn't it? The same argument can be made about 99% of the stuff in this forum where a debate springs up (i.e. its ALWAYS a situation where whoever wins or loses the debate is totally irrelevant to the participants lives and world as a whole). And about the parent site as well (with all due respect, who goddamn cares about Star Wars Vs Star Trek comparisons, really?). What makes you think think this thread is different?

It's the hostility towards ba Apple for being expensive and bad consumers for 'falling for it' I don't understand. I own a Samsung TV instead f a Palsonic one. OH NOES I FELL FOR IT?

I personally hate everything that enshrouds itself of status-symbol flag without really being one. Apple, Converse, the Smart car, all SUVs, random mass-produced designer shit, and so on. They all rise their prices artificially and mimic (kinda) actual luxury without really being more than fancy mass-produced stuff (or crappy stuff with a symbol for most garments).
It's making people act like "I'v got a jaaag" from Top Gear, but without a jaguar.

Alienware for example does not do that. They just sell cool quality stuff without attaching a "if you do this you will be inherently better than masses" with massive marketing.

Ferrari does not do that either. That's actual luxury, and has no real need for any carpet-bombing marketing campaigns to sell.

So your counter to what you perceive as apple being smugly arrogant is to be . . . smugly arrogant?

Yes. Maybe because I am smugly arrogant and feel that I need to be somehow better than others to justify it, and Apple does not allow me to do that since it's not an actual luxury. It's an automatic emotional thing, you know, not rational.

Trackpads. Suck. I've used 100s (including 6-7 Macbooks) over my years in IT. There's a reason I carried a USB mouse in my bag. We could go back and forth on this until the end of time.

Aww, come on. I still think trackballs are far far superior to any other mouse-like thing (does not need to move nor it does need a surface that a camera can pick up, I have naturally sticky fingers so I have a far more precise control of the ball than on even Apple) but I cannot really say any kind of trackpad from Apple sucks, they are well-designed and well-integrated in the machine (never seen a so big and comfortable touching surface and you can do some goofy multitouch shit you wonder how you lived without them, of course it takes some time to learn how to use them properly, and this is frustrating). If you were talking about anyone else's then you're pretty much right. They look like an afterthought.

Furthermore, Apple selling its goods in a competitive, supply-demand market is an implicit stake in the ground saying "our goods are worth this much." This is a capitalist market!

Good marketing can allow you to keep selling crap for ages (like say Coca Cola). Not saying Apple is crap, just saying this isn't a good reason to say anything is actually worth the price as long as it sells.

I'm pretty sure most windows boxes will still sell a lot even if the price jumped at 2-3 times what it is now for no other reason than the builders making a big cartel. Does that mean they are worth it? No.

[General Zod]

Alienware for example does not do that. They just sell cool quality stuff without attaching a "if you do this you will be inherently better than masses" with massive marketing.

I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not. Historically Alienware has been vastly overpriced junk that you could build yourself for half the brand markup. Even more so now that they've been purchased by Dell.

[Stark]

I think he's just an idiot. Alienware is probably the best example of status symbol bullshit; for years it was literally nothing but an overpriced computer in a stupid case and provided none of the tangible or intangible value people get or believe they get from Apple. But he also thinks asking why people get so angry at Apple is 'looking superior' so I don't know how to engage with him at all. At least others admit they're either angry with marketing.

The best part is I don't even own Apple computers and I'd hardly recommend them to most people; I'm just not a close-minded bigot. BUT NEWEGG IS CHEEPER!!

[phongn]

I think he's just an idiot. Alienware is probably the best example of status symbol bullshit; for years it was literally nothing but an overpriced computer in a stupid case and provided none of the tangible or intangible value people get or believe they get from Apple. But he also thinks asking why people get so angry at Apple is 'looking superior' so I don't know how to engage with him at all. At least others admit they're either angry with marketing.

I can't even be terribly upset at Alienware; they were a one-stop-shop to buy high-performance gaming computers without having to build it yourself. It's a weird and small niche, to be sure.

[Stark]

Exactly; people with more money than sense who want a 'high power' PC to just work is and was a market. The distinctive cases and marketing were just a sensible move to create an image around their specific computer box in a marketplace.

How this is distinct from Apple (aside from Alienware to my knowledge simply being a box maker and far less successful) is beyond me. Oh, except they sold PCs so it's ok. :v

[Melchior]

How this is distinct from Apple (aside from Alienware to my knowledge simply being a box maker and far less successful) is beyond me. Oh, except they sold PCs so it's ok. :v

Probably because their (Alienware's) pandering is towards people that they like better (which is by itself somewhat strange, since I'm sure that most people would find the average design student more agreeable company than the average non-technical hardcore gamer), despite the value proposition being even worse.

[Stark]

Has Alienware changed since dell bought them? I don't read anything that has their ads anymore, so my information is several years ago '$4000 desktop LOOKS LIKE AN ALIEN OMG'.

[Melchior]

Has Alienware changed since dell bought them? I don't read anything that has their ads anymore, so my information is several years ago '$4000 desktop LOOKS LIKE AN ALIEN OMG'.

I think that their notebooks have stopped being rebranded sager notebooks; the design "aesthetic" is mostly the same, possibly a bit understated. They're still look extremely embarrassing to me.

[phongn]

Has Alienware changed since dell bought them? I don't read anything that has their ads anymore, so my information is several years ago '$4000 desktop LOOKS LIKE AN ALIEN OMG'.

Dell has sort of neglected Alienware; they're still around but essentially as Dell's "premium gamer" line and without much identity.

[TheFeniX]

People, like yourself, say "Apple is not worth the money" and some people, like me, come in and say "it is worth the money". The very fact that it sells means it is (to some people). Furthermore, Apple selling its goods in a competitive, supply-demand market is an implicit stake in the ground saying "our goods are worth this much." This is a capitalist market!

You act like you're informing me of something I don't know. Yes, it's a capitalist market: a market in which 95% of people in said market say "no" to Apple products that aren't iPhones or iPads. Also, unless I'm misreading my own posts, I never said Apple wasn't worth the money, only that "lifestyle" costs are not worth my money. I fully admit(ted) that worth is subjective and means different things to different people. If you start comparing hardware (like was originally done in this thread and what I originally picked up on) then "no" they aren't worth the money.

Again, your opinion. Many people like them; you don't. That's fine. What isn't fine is to declare "trackpads suck" as fact.

Ok, just so you quit grasping at straws with this stupid topic, let me reiterate: "IN MY OPINION, trackpads suck and nothing you say or do will convince me otherwise." I thought it was pretty fucking evident it was my opinion because I didn't try to claim it was a fact. But thank you for letting it drag on this long.

Not in the consumer market, which is what I've been referring to all this time! The last one remotely available was the IBM T220/T221 ($8400 MSRP), which was never intended for the consumer market, or high-resolution medical imaging displays. Further, I don't just mean high-pixel density, but pixel density at or above the Nyquist limit.

Still not new technology.

I was talking about PC servers, not the Mac Pro (which I have not defended; the model is long-overdue for a major refresh and uncompetitively priced for what it is, even given the general superior user experience a Mac offers).

Then it looks even worse when I can get 32Gbs of ECC RAM on a Dell for $300. Fact: Apple's hardware pricing is shit when you part it out. And just so we don't go around another fucking time on this, I am not factoring in "user-experience" and "lifestyle costs."

Overall margins are in their 10-K. Detailed margins are in the released court documents for Apple v. Samsung.

I dug around. Looks like Apple's profit margin is 35%. Dell averages 5%. ASUS is making about 35% on their tablet line and still manages to be cheaper than Apple (and have better hardware).

How this is distinct from Apple (aside from Alienware to my knowledge simply being a box maker and far less successful) is beyond me. Oh, except they sold PCs so it's ok. :v

I doubt you'll find many people to defend Alienware for throwing 100% marked-up parts into a box. Their target market is gamers who usually do so on a budget or build their own. This whole thread tangent was started because someone dared to say Apples were expensive. People trash on Alienware and you don't see posters immediately jumping in saying shit like "The lower end Alienware runs about the same as a Dell lined with solid gold!"

I have naturally sticky fingers so I have a far more precise control of the ball than on even Apple) but I cannot really say any kind of trackpad from Apple sucks, they are well-designed and well-integrated in the machine (never seen a so big and comfortable touching surface and you can do some goofy multitouch shit you wonder how you lived without them, of course it takes some time to learn how to use them properly, and this is frustrating).

The only benefit to winning a shit-eating contest is that you get to brush your teeth first.

I'm pretty sure most windows boxes will still sell a lot even if the price jumped at 2-3 times what it is now for no other reason than the builders making a big cartel. Does that mean they are worth it? No.

I'm almost positive this is where a lot of clone-computer manufacturers (IBM-Compatible) like Dell came from: the large manufacturers made good products that were hella-expensive and geared more to large business. "Clones" offered home and small business a chance to get in on this whole new-fangled PC business. Then again, it's not something I've thought about in 15 years.

[General Zod]

This whole thread tangent was started because someone dared to say Apples were expensive.

Except that's not what was said, and you're a terrible liar. I guess beating up on strawmen feels good though?

[someone_else]

I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not. Historically Alienware has been vastly overpriced junk that you could build yourself for half the brand markup. Even more so now that they've been purchased by Dell.

First: can you build your own gaming laptop? Or you are taking prehistoric data about desktops and somehow extrapolating and saying their laptops are overpriced shit as well?

Second: I said
Alienware for example does not do that. They just sell cool quality stuff without attaching a "if you do this you will be inherently better than masses" with massive marketing.

Now, breaking it down for you and for Stark, do you see them doing ANY marketing comparable to Apple? (like say dominating in movies until others catched up) Do they have something comparable to Apple Shops or dedicated Apple Corners in computer selling shops? Do they have any lawsuit fest over bullshit just to have everyone know that their shit is so cool that everyone is trying to rip them off (and to some extent they are ripped off)?

No. They just have a site, stuff with high prices that I think is good quality but may be wrong, it has a specific brand look (that I personally don't find that bad), market to an extremely limited market niche and... that's it. OMG IT'S THE SAME AS APPLE!!!!1!

[Stark]

You're right, it's markup based on nothing but branding WITHOUT any of the Apple value-adds. I believe I have already covered this.

[someone_else]

Yes, I used it in the original post as an example to show products that don't enrage me even if they are expensive as Apple and fancier than usual, exactly for that reason you now have said in your post as well.

Somehow you and General Zod missed this that was my actual point and thought I was making a Bold Statement about their quality and coolness or whatever and started mocking me about that.

So I rephrased that to clarify it.

[General Zod]

Now, breaking it down for you and for Stark, do you see them doing ANY marketing comparable to Apple? (like say dominating in movies until others catched up) Do they have something comparable to Apple Shops or dedicated Apple Corners in computer selling shops? Do they have any lawsuit fest over bullshit just to have everyone know that their shit is so cool that everyone is trying to rip them off (and to some extent they are ripped off)?

The only thing that you described that is actually marketing is placement in movies. PS - Most major brands have movie placement.

Microsoft and Sony both have dedicated stores to their own brand, I don't see the problem here. Lawsuits? Oh man. Companies are filing lawsuits and getting sued all the time, the only reason you're complaining here is because you don't like Apple.

No. They just have a site, stuff with high prices that I think is good quality but may be wrong

Based on what? I know someone that bought an Alienware laptop that blew up on him within a week of owning it earlier this year.

[Stark]

Yes, I used it in the original post as an example to show products that don't enrage me even if they are expensive as Apple and fancier than usual, exactly for that reason you now have said in your post as well.

Somehow you and General Zod missed this that was my actual point and thought I was making a Bold Statement about their quality and coolness or whatever and started mocking me about that.

So I rephrased that to clarify it.

Thats fine, but I think you need to be ready for everyone to continue their amazement that you would use Alienware as a positive example (or superior example) of price inflation. Maybe you need to actually think about these gut reactions you have, instead of uncritically accepting them and then spreading them to others as truth.

Zod, his example makes it clear that he actually has no problem with markups, branding inflation, or any of that (which is good because he lives in the Western world). He, like Fenix, is just angry at Apple. All the rest is window dressing.

[Tolya]

Getting back to the subject at hand.

I've been working on Windows 8 Release Preview since it came out and I have to say a few things about it:

First of all, Metro is no longer Metro. Apparently Microsoft got boned by a german company called Metro AG and just started calling the new UI "Windows 8". And they are saying that that was their plan from the very beginning

As for the actual interface itself, there are things I like about it and there are things I don't. Overally, it has lots of potential, and the ability to customize an entire screen with your own shortcuts is just great. I dislike windows 7 start menu because it is a cluttered shadow of it's former win95/98 self, which was at least a bit useful.

A good thing about Metro's main screen is that you can freely arrange all the icons into groups. After 5 minutes I got a fully functional shortcut screen with everything that I use on a daily basis, including the command prompt, admin tools, task manager, applications, the works. The bad thing about it is the abysmal "context menu" that is activated by right clicking on a "tile". A colored bar pops ups at the bottom, with options like "run with admin privs" or "pin to taskbar". The problem is, there is no way to customize it. For example, the number of options is very limited and there is no visible way of adding new stuff.

It would make sense if you could customize it in a similar manner to the Games Explorer in windows 7. Every title was represented by a single icon and you could access stuff like readme/manual/uninstall/support by right clicking on the icon. It made sense. In W8 UI you get no such options (as far as the programmers that I work with have been able to delve into it), so a single tile is no a representation of an entire application, but rather just a shortcut to a specific function. Therefore, if you want to access readme, manual, or anything else, you need to create another tile or go to the "All Apps" screen, which is even worse. Or create a tile specifically for that function, which unnecessarily clutters the screen. Short attention span, microsoft?

The "All Apps" screen is even worse, because it basically duplicates the start menu, only that you get only two tiers on the shortcut screen. In the start menu you could extend the tree for as long as you liked: Start Menu > Programs > Company > Title > Subgroup > Shortcut. In W8 UI, you only get two levels of the tree, and it's not even collapsible in any way. So, if you install a w7 program on w8, it just creates a first level group (like the company name) as a label and then dumps EVERYTHING under that level in a single level. So say, if you are installing a freaking game pack, that includes 7 titles, along with their respective shortcuts and functions, you get something like this:

==GAMEPACK==
- game1 exe shortcut
- game2 exe shortcut
- game3 exe shortcut
- game4 exe shortcut
- tons of assorted uninstall/readme shit

It gets even worse, because w8 ui is unable to differentiate between shortcuts if they have the same name. So, if you make two readme shortcuts in the start menu, which normally would have been neatly organized in different groups, in w8 you will end up with only one shortcut to a single file, because fuck you, that's why - it will only make a single file.

These are win7 applications mind you, totally unprepared for w8 ui, but there is no easy way to get around that problem, even when people start updating their shit to w8 ui specs. Like I said, main screen tiles are one function only and there is no way to make a real collapsible tree in the "all apps" menu.

"Apps" (formerly called metro apps) are even worse. I get it that they are optimized for touchscreen/mobile device interface. It's fine. What I don't get is why do they shove them down our throats for desktops/laptops. On a small touchscreen it makes sense, you don't want a clutter of windows with tiny buttons that are made for a mouse/trackball/touchpad. But on a 23'' screen it just makes no sense - well, apart from a situation in which there is an idiot with no multitasking abilities before the computer. Browsing and viewing images on Win 7 has been easy: double click just launches the image previewer. On W8, default bindings launch a w8 app which not only takes time to load, but also give you fuckall - it's just a full screen viewing mode, in which you have to switch entirely to another app or the desktop if you want to do something else. If you want, for example, to compare an image on your disk with one in the browser, you're shit out of luck.

In it's defense, standard win7 image preview (and all other related tools for files) are still there, but you need to change extension properties.

Also, in w8 apps I never saw a "quit" button, so closing them on a desktop/laptop is a nuisance, since I had to switch screens and then close the inactive app screen by showing a list of screens (kinda like mac mission control but much more limited and retarded) and closing it using right click.

All in all, it is a good idea, but it needs some tweaks. I am really astounded that nobody at microsoft has thought of this - it is so obvious and so EASY to do for a programmer (adding minor functionalities and tweaking others) that it wouldn't take them long to make w8 ui really usable for a desktop machine. The problems I listed were there since I first saw it on Developer Preview version, so I doubt they will get fixed in the near future. Save if enough people whine about them to the company.

--edit: Some other good things about windows 8 that I forgot to write about:

- it's networking is fast. Where I've been getting 5-8 mb/s on a company LAN in Windows 7, I've been getting regular 30 mb/s on Windows 8. Since my job involves lots of moving of multi GB files across the network, that is a winner for me.