ray245 wrote:In their eyes, the only thing they have of value is being attacked. It is pointless to ask them to shrug at the insult. Expecting to do this is going to make them even more extreme in their belief and in their action.
It is one thing to expect a religious extremist in a first world nation to shrug at such insult. It is another thing altogether to expect a person from a third world nation to do the same.
That depends what definition of "expect" you're using. They are obligated to not go murdering innocent bystanders just because they got their panties in a bunch, but one cannot predict that they would fulfil such an obligation.
Given the history of violence in those regions as a result of religion, I think it is safe to say we can predict a large number of people there will not fulfill such an obligation.
From their point of view, why should they have the need to? To them, they think it is RIGHT to commit acts of violence in order to defend their religion.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Broomstick wrote:Please do remember than "Libyans", "Muslims", "Arabs", and so forth are groups composed of individuals, not all of whom are murderous fanatics and many of whom find the violence and killing every bit as deplorable as any Westerner does - maybe more so, given that they are far more likely to be a victim of this bullshit than the average American or European.
Broomstick, you really think all Westerners (as opposed to just some Arabs) deplore violence and killing? I'd say the percent is even both in the West and the Islamic world. And it's not that big a percentage. Most people don't deplore violence but cheer and support it, that's the sad truth of the modern day.
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I don't think the average person is in favor of mob violence. That doesn't mean there aren't some who think it's a grand idea, but even in a riot most of a city isn't participating.
Or maybe I have just too optimistic a view of people.
Go back and re-read what I said. The entire POINT is that people are not monolithic groups and that membership in a particular group is not the sole defining trait of a person. In an earlier post I pointed out that there are folks on the Westerner side who want to stir the pot and provoke violence/war, and in this one I say there are folks on the Muslim side who deplore the violence and want peace.
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I perfectly understand what you say, and I wholly agree with it. I'm just baffled by your comparison - "same as ... any Westerner". If you'd frame it as "same as me" or, say, "same as most people on this forum", perhaps I wouldn't even bother asking.
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Again, it gets back to seeing people as a member of a group rather than as individuals. That sort of thinking says something done in America justifies burning the German embassy because they're all "Westerners" or "Christians" or whatever. It's the mirror image of folks on our side viewing them as a monolithic group of clones rather than making the effort to distinguish between rioting fanatics and those who are defending foreign embassies or counter-protesting.
The irony is that it's the angry mobs storming embassies and setting things on fire that are suffering the most here - injuries are mounting among the violent protesters and it wouldn't shock me to hear one or more them gets killed in the next couple days. Which, no doubt, someone else will use to justify still more violence.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
TithonusSyndrome wrote:Apparently the German mission is pretty well burning down at the moment, according to reports.
Straight from the religion of peace's Friday sermon of love and tolerance too.
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
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Again, it gets back to seeing people as a member of a group rather than as individuals. That sort of thinking says something done in America justifies burning the German embassy because they're all "Westerners" or "Christians" or whatever. It's the mirror image of folks on our side viewing them as a monolithic group of clones rather than making the effort to distinguish between rioting fanatics and those who are defending foreign embassies or counter-protesting.
The irony is that it's the angry mobs storming embassies and setting things on fire that are suffering the most here - injuries are mounting among the violent protesters and it wouldn't shock me to hear one or more them gets killed in the next couple days. Which, no doubt, someone else will use to justify still more violence.
It is not even that. Welcome to the Werther Effect everyone.
It is not just suicides, but anything really. It is one of those "self-organizing group behavior" things. One embassy attack (as opposed to an embassy riot, which is as I understand it, pretty common and downright humdrum, at least in Med) that is publicized gives spawns off copycats that have nothing to do with the original in terms of the direct cause.
That is why they did not go after the US embassy, and also why there were no RPGs. It is spontaneous, not planned like the first.
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Anti-Islam film: German and UK embassies in Sudan attacked
Protesters angered by a film mocking Islam have attacked the German and British embassies in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum.
Demonstrators started fires and tore down the German flag, raising an Islamist banner in its place.
Apparently the German mission is pretty well burning down at the moment, according to reports.
The Sudanese government might be stirring up xenophobia, because of the economic problems and general discontent from Omar Bashir's misrule.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:I get that they can justify this violence, but what baffles me is why they don't just go after the US embassy in Khartoum? Anyone?
If memory serves a Marine contingent is posted there. Not an easy target especially since they're probably itching for someone stupid enough to try and mess with them right now.
Saying smaller engines are better is like saying you don't want huge muscles because you wouldn't fit through the door. So what? You can bench 500. Fuck doors. - MadCat360
I wouldn't be surprised if there are also attacks against Coptic communities in Egypt once word gets around that a Copt was behind the film. I wonder if Mr. Nakoula realises that he's probably made things worse for his people. If he really wanted to raise awareness of the plight of Copts in Egypt, why couldn't he have just made a documentary film about the subject, rather than needlessly antagonize Muslims in this manner?
Ultonius wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there are also attacks against Coptic communities in Egypt once word gets around that a Copt was behind the film. I wonder if Mr. Nakoula realises that he's probably made things worse for his people. If he really wanted to raise awareness of the plight of Copts in Egypt, why couldn't he have just made a documentary film about the subject, rather than needlessly antagonize Muslims in this manner?
He's a criminal who has made meth, PCP, and softcore porn. He also tried to blame the film on the Jews by claiming ti be an Israeli-American. He clearly didn't apply intelligent analysis to the possible consequences of this to the Coptic community, beyond, "I'm going to get away with this by lying about my identity!".
Ultonius wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there are also attacks against Coptic communities in Egypt once word gets around that a Copt was behind the film. I wonder if Mr. Nakoula realises that he's probably made things worse for his people. If he really wanted to raise awareness of the plight of Copts in Egypt, why couldn't he have just made a documentary film about the subject, rather than needlessly antagonize Muslims in this manner?
He's a criminal who has made meth, PCP, and softcore porn. He also tried to blame the film on the Jews by claiming ti be an Israeli-American. He clearly didn't apply intelligent analysis to the possible consequences of this to the Coptic community, beyond, "I'm going to get away with this by lying about my identity!".
Umm, how is softcore porn in any way connected to hardcore drug manufacturing?
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Ultonius wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there are also attacks against Coptic communities in Egypt once word gets around that a Copt was behind the film. I wonder if Mr. Nakoula realises that he's probably made things worse for his people. If he really wanted to raise awareness of the plight of Copts in Egypt, why couldn't he have just made a documentary film about the subject, rather than needlessly antagonize Muslims in this manner?
He's a criminal who has made meth, PCP, and softcore porn. He also tried to blame the film on the Jews by claiming ti be an Israeli-American. He clearly didn't apply intelligent analysis to the possible consequences of this to the Coptic community, beyond, "I'm going to get away with this by lying about my identity!".
Umm, how is softcore porn in any way connected to hardcore drug manufacturing?
More just the whole "shady motherfucker" thing. Porn production is a pretty sleazy business no matter what you think about porn itself.
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There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
AniThyng wrote:Could someone who advocates that mere words arent much to get worked up about explain to me though in small words why this is ok but using a certain 6 letter word meaning homosexual is a bannable offense? Mere words have no power right? and I don't actually want to hear that you can do anything you want on a private bbs, I mean in principle.
Unless you've got examples of people being arrested and convicted for just saying the f-word (or a variation thereof) or "Man this is so gay" and getting arrested for it, the principle is not the same. This would apply to the US, as it's US law we seem to be discussing here. Note there's likely a difference between somebody going up to a gay person and calling him/her a "fag" as opposed to, say, those "God Hates Fags" placards you see courtesy of the WBC. Somebody posting either would get banned here, but AFAIK the WBC crowd hasn't been arrested solely for their banners.
We fully agree that legally the guy can say whatever he wants, but my problem is ethically and morally I don't see why what he's saying, and the muslim reaction to it is all that different from inciting people with loaded terms like that and the n-word. We don't tell LGBTs to "man up and stop complaining". Though I agree it would be so much better if the mobs would just say "this is offensive, please don't go it again", but then perhaps people will get the idea that you can just push the boundaries even harder to try to get a raise out of them.
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character
AniThyng wrote:We don't tell LGBTs to "man up and stop complaining".
We don't tell the Muslims to stop complaining either, we tell them to stop setting fire to buildings and murdering innocent bystanders.
I will note that in regular every-day riots (sporting events ring a bell) fires get started and sometimes people die.
The only difference is that these riots are about religion instead of non-US football or hockey, they tend to take place at embassies, and they have a bit of developing world flavor because they dont have well-equipped and trained riot police and things often get out of control due to the social forces driving the behavior of crowds. .
The Libyan Embassy attack was an entirely different thing, as has been posted above.
That is my impression anyway. I have not hunted down live video feeds or anything.
However, if that is true, it strikes me as selective memory and a double standard to single out islam regarding the behavior of riots.
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There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:However, if that is true, it strikes me as selective memory and a double standard to single out islam regarding the behavior of riots.
What double standard? Has anyone said that they're perfectly fine with morons setting fires and killing innocent bystanders as long as it's to celebrate that their team won the World Cup or some other nonsense?
And... this morning the news is reporting 7 protesters are dead.
Yep, I thought that wound happen. So sad that these people don't realize they're doing as much, if not more, harm to themselves than to their targets.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Alyrium Denryle wrote:However, if that is true, it strikes me as selective memory and a double standard to single out islam regarding the behavior of riots.
What double standard? Has anyone said that they're perfectly fine with morons setting fires and killing innocent bystanders as long as it's to celebrate that their team won the World Cup or some other nonsense?
No moron. But those sets of riots do not stir up the hateful bile this one has.
When canadians riot over a hockey game no one talks about how savage canadians are, or how their love of hockey is a cancer upon the world. It is as if religious and in particular muslim riots are singled out as a subset of riots that are particularly bad, and people forget about the existence of other riots. Selective memory and a double standard--not toward the deaths, but with regard to the cause of the riot and the people committing them. The attitudes and public response are different. Maybe this is because of the media narrative. I dont know, and frankly I stopped caring.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
