French Mohammed cartooons

[Jub]

Yes, because their anger certainly isn't compounded by feelings of powerlessness in the world due to how Western nations continually fuck them over and have been doing so for centuries.

That sounds like their problem to me. If they want to be listened to they can stop acting like feral children and get their shit together.

Someone needs to take a fucking history course, it seems. Dar al-Islam was, on the whole, relatively more peaceable than Europe, was probably responsible for the Renaissance due to the maintenance of Greek classics and passing on their own science to Europe, and so on. Of course there was still warfare and shit, but, then again, Europe only stopped engaging in brutal warfare since, oh, whenever Russia stops getting involved in Chechnya. If you want to exclude Russia from Europe, for whatever crazy reason, I guess we can go back to that wondrous era of peace that has existed ever since Kosovo stopped being host to internecine warfare, all the way in 1999.

I'm willing to bet you're white washing things just a little here, but please enjoy making excuses for them.

If we leave you alone, how likely is it that you'll stop being a complete douchebag? Guess I better invade your home and keep you under armed guard until you shape up. :V

I'm not going around killing people for making me upset and my right to say what I like is protected.

Out of curiosity, Jub-Jub, do you advocate going into these nations and walling off the cities and enforcing strict curfews? What about some sort of special marking for the super-extremists? If those super-extremists then committed crimes, what do you propose on doing to them? Please, lay out your plan for how to deal with this problem. What is your final solution?

I'm not even going to justify this with a rebuttal.

[Stark]

No Stark. We do not need to tolerate intolerance, and must not accept people who would casually murder randoms because the feelings of their invisible sky pixie got hurt. For fucks sake another thread full of apologists lining up to defend neanderthal homicidal thugs?

I don't beleive I'm advocating tolerating 'intolerance' (certainly not the kind of intolerance that offends people for no reason) and if you think 'let's build a better future together' is APOLOGISING FOR TEH TERRORISTS, I just don't know what to say.

[Akhlut]

That sounds like their problem to me. If they want to be listened to they can stop acting like feral children and get their shit together.

"It's their fault their angry at me for bombing them! They should just shut up and take it!"

I'm willing to bet you're white washing things just a little here, but please enjoy making excuses for them.

I'm willing to bet you're a Nazi, too.

If we leave you alone, how likely is it that you'll stop being a complete douchebag? Guess I better invade your home and keep you under armed guard until you shape up. :V

I'm not going around killing people for making me upset and my right to say what I like is protected.

You are, however, paying for people to be bombed via taxes. After all, if you can't control such bombings, you need to be controlled, right?

Out of curiosity, Jub-Jub, do you advocate going into these nations and walling off the cities and enforcing strict curfews? What about some sort of special marking for the super-extremists? If those super-extremists then committed crimes, what do you propose on doing to them? Please, lay out your plan for how to deal with this problem. What is your final solution?

I'm not even going to justify this with a rebuttal.

Because your plan is poorly thought-out or because you don't want to show people that you are, in fact, a Nazi?

[ray245]

Bull-fucking-shit! A drawing is not a provocation you unbelievable fuck! It's a drawing!! I guess, in order not to provoke them, I have to adopt their beliefs and revere what they revere, huh?

Islam forbid their followers from depicting Muhammad in any way, not even in a glorious manner. If they can be offended by a positive portrayal of their prophet, what sort of reaction do you think will happen if you draw a cartoon openly mocking him?

In their view, there is no reason why they should agree with you that a drawing isn't an open provocation.

If a drawing can collapse an emerging democratic society back into anarchy, then I guess they're fucked. Luckily, I don't believe that.

An emerging democratic society is an extremely fragile society. Furthermore, there is no reason to assume that an emerging democratic society in the middle east will even share the same western values and attitude towards religion.

These fanatics are getting violent precisely because the opposite is true. They are seeing their society becoming ever more secular, and so they ratchet up their outrage. If they were confident in the power of Islamic fundamentalism they would consider a slight criticism or irreverence toward their religion as inconsequential.

At the end, you are just making it even easier for the fundamentalist to gain more influence. The more they can make an argument to the common Joe about how the western nations are disrespecting their culture and customs, the easier they can find people who are willingly to flock to their banners.

Right, because drawing a picture is an abuse of my right to freedom of speech. What fucking planet are you from and why do you allow radical Islamists define what is abusive?

Try telling that to the families of the people killed as a result of all the cartoons and movies mocking Muhammad.

This isn't about Muslims getting pissed off at the cartoonist actions. This is about people are getting killed as a result of those cartoonist. This is something you seems to be ignoring.

My existence provokes some Muslims. These aren't choices. My simple existence and the fact that I am an Atheist would offend a significant number of Muslims.

We should not limit our freedoms based on the actions of the lowest common denominator. If that were the case, we would have no freedoms.

There is a difference. Us being Atheist will cause some Muslims to dislike us, but not necessary make them want to kill us and our fellow countrymen.

Mocking and insulting their religion outright is going to cause a violence response.

I do believe in the right to criticize religion, but not at the expense of getting people killed. I do not believe having blood on my hands is worth the price of doing what I believe in.

[Col. Crackpot]

No Stark. We do not need to tolerate intolerance, and must not accept people who would casually murder randoms because the feelings of their invisible sky pixie got hurt. For fucks sake another thread full of apologists lining up to defend neanderthal homicidal thugs?

I don't beleive I'm advocating tolerating 'intolerance' (certainly not the kind of intolerance that offends people for no reason) and if you think 'let's build a better future together' is APOLOGISING FOR TEH TERRORISTS, I just don't know what to say.

I would argue that it is not possible to build a better future with radical religious fundamentalists, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever. The better future comes when we give them the choice to join us in peaceful co-existence or be left behind to rot in their own hateful shit.

[Alyeska]

There is a difference. Us being Atheist will cause some Muslims to dislike us, but not necessary make them want to kill us and our fellow countrymen.

To many simply being Atheist is an offense worthy of death.

Mocking and insulting their religion outright is going to cause a violence response.

I do believe in the right to criticize religion, but not at the expense of getting people killed. I do not believe having blood on my hands is worth the price of doing what I believe in.

Congrats. You have just given Special Rights to Muslims who aren't even residents of your country. You are willing to sacrifice your rights. You are willing to sacrifice MY RIGHTS. All for the actions of people across the planet. And because it wouldn't be fair to give one religion more rights than others, you would have to apply those laws across the board. So when it was first illegal to criticize Islam, it now becomes illegal to criticize Christianity.

You have sacrificed significant freedoms in the name of the Lowest Common Denominator.

[Jub]

That sounds like their problem to me. If they want to be listened to they can stop acting like feral children and get their shit together.

"It's their fault their angry at me for bombing them! They should just shut up and take it!"

I'm not bombing them though, I'm just expressing myself in a way they find offensive.

You are, however, paying for people to be bombed via taxes. After all, if you can't control such bombings, you need to be controlled, right?

I don't support the bombings, and being Canadian I'm happy that my nation hasn't been doing the brunt of the nasty business in these nations. There's also a difference between government sanctioned attacks, distasteful as they are, and unsanctioned attacks by citizens living in my nation that I have no inclination to investigate.

[Akhlut]

That sounds like their problem to me. If they want to be listened to they can stop acting like feral children and get their shit together.

"It's their fault their angry at me for bombing them! They should just shut up and take it!"

I'm not bombing them though, I'm just expressing myself in a way they find offensive.

Jesus, are you incapable of reading or something?

"Yes, because their anger certainly isn't compounded by feelings of powerlessness in the world due to how Western nations continually fuck them over and have been doing so for centuries."

You know, like having brutal dictatorships installed over them for decades at a time?

You are, however, paying for people to be bombed via taxes. After all, if you can't control such bombings, you need to be controlled, right?

I don't support the bombings, and being Canadian I'm happy that my nation hasn't been doing the brunt of the nasty business in these nations. There's also a difference between government sanctioned attacks, distasteful as they are, and unsanctioned attacks by citizens living in my nation that I have no inclination to investigate.

I'm sure that's of great comfort to those who have been bombed that their deaths were sanctioned by a government as opposed to a terrorist group.

And Canadians have been killing Afghanis just as surely as Americans, just in smaller numbers.

As for why Libya has had a hard time doing much investigations: you care to guess what sort of resources the new government has? Here's a hint: not much.

[Akhlut]

And, of course, no word on why you're not explaining your ideas for colonialism/imperialism. I'm betting it's because they are both poorly thought-out and Nazi-riffic!

[Jub]

Jesus, are you incapable of reading or something?

"Yes, because their anger certainly isn't compounded by feelings of powerlessness in the world due to how Western nations continually fuck them over and have been doing so for centuries."

You know, like having brutal dictatorships installed over them for decades at a time?

So how does this relate to my freedom to do as I please in my own country? If I want to wipe filth from a hog with pages from the Quran for a youtube audience am I then morally responsible for what some idiot a world away does?

I'm sure that's of great comfort to those who have been bombed that their deaths were sanctioned by a government as opposed to a terrorist group.

And Canadians have been killing Afghanis just as surely as Americans, just in smaller numbers.

As for why Libya has had a hard time doing much investigations: you care to guess what sort of resources the new government has? Here's a hint: not much.

Yes, because we have oversight over who we attack. You may hate the reasons we did it, but it was done as officially as killing another man can be.

That sounds like Libya's problem. If they can't solve it maybe they should let somebody else do it for them.

[Flagg]

That sounds like Libya's problem. If they can't solve it maybe they should let somebody else do it for them.

Meaning what? Invasion? Because that's worked so well for us in the past. Hey maybe this time we just kill all of the "extremists".

[Zadius]

Fuck no, I'd send in SEALs. There's a difference between not kicking a hornets nest and allowing terrorism to go unanswered. Because the embassy attack was terrorism, even if it wasn't a plot.

These violent riots are a form a intimidation if not outright terrorism, because their effect (and probably their intention) is to cow the west into self-censorship (even if it's not the legal variety). Yes, send in the SEALs if possible, but we all know that's not always possible. We've let hostages die in the past rather than give in to their demands. Perhaps paying ransoms would be better; I tend to think it leads to worse outcomes in the long run and it is not a good policy.

In the case of Muhammad pictures, their demand is that the west censor these images. Even censorship by social pressure is giving in to much. I think the response should be a big "fuck you" to these fanatics and, if anything, draw more Muhammad pictures, but this time depict him with a stick up his ass. The ransom they demand is submission to their ridiculous sensitivities and we shouldn't pay a even cent of that.

[Jub]

That sounds like Libya's problem. If they can't solve it maybe they should let somebody else do it for them.

Meaning what? Invasion? Because that's worked so well for us in the past. Hey maybe this time we just kill all of the "extremists".

I'm not a policy maker. I just know that you don't let a rabid dog go free when you know the owners can't control it. If Libya can't keep its dogs leashed, so to speak, then other forces might need to step in and put the dog down.

[Ralin]

or we can pretend live in Wald Disney's America where nothing bad happens unless it's by the evildoers who hate us for our freedom and we end up with another unwinnable Mid-East clusterfuck. Over a bad video.

I don't say this very often, but if they're willing to kill people because they can't stand the fact that someone in our country made a movie or political cartoon they don't like they really are evildoers who hate us for our freedom. Like, literally.

[Akhlut]

So how does this relate to my freedom to do as I please in my own country? If I want to wipe filth from a hog with pages from the Quran for a youtube audience am I then morally responsible for what some idiot a world away does?

by virtue of the fact that most of those people have been dealing with oppression at the hands of the West either directly or indirectly and that this sort of shit is essentially saying to them "we hate you simply because you are Muslim". They feel attacked on all fronts and the only people who have fought for them have been the hardline Islamic fundamentalists. The only way they have any power in their lives is to join up with Islamic fundamentalists.

So, yeah, you're free to do stupid shit like that all day. However, bear in mind that to them, it's basically another attack from the West. It's no different then the WBC saying God hates fags, basically.

Congratulations, you're Fred Phelps. I bet that makes you feel like a big man, eh?

I'm sure that's of great comfort to those who have been bombed that their deaths were sanctioned by a government as opposed to a terrorist group.

And Canadians have been killing Afghanis just as surely as Americans, just in smaller numbers.

As for why Libya has had a hard time doing much investigations: you care to guess what sort of resources the new government has? Here's a hint: not much.

Yes, because we have oversight over who we attack. You may hate the reasons we did it, but it was done as officially as killing another man can be.

Of course. Oversight. That's why so many civilians have been killed at wedding parties or funerals.

That sounds like Libya's problem. If they can't solve it maybe they should let somebody else do it for them.

Again, what's your plan, Jub-Jub? Are you a Nazi or not?

[Akhlut]

or we can pretend live in Wald Disney's America where nothing bad happens unless it's by the evildoers who hate us for our freedom and we end up with another unwinnable Mid-East clusterfuck. Over a bad video.

I don't say this very often, but if they're willing to kill people because they can't stand the fact that someone in our country made a movie or political cartoon they don't like they really are evildoers who hate us for our freedom. Like, literally.

Jesus, it's like no one can fucking read or put two and two together. To them, this shit is just the exclamation point on a fucking all-caps diatribe about how they deserve to be exterminated. The West has supported dictators, bombed civilians, and otherwise engaged in various campaigns of terror for decades and there are more than a few people stating outright that they should be exterminated. Maybe they're pissed because they have a legitimate reason?

But, no, must be because they hate freedom. :V

[Akhlut]

That sounds like Libya's problem. If they can't solve it maybe they should let somebody else do it for them.

Meaning what? Invasion? Because that's worked so well for us in the past. Hey maybe this time we just kill all of the "extremists".

I'm not a policy maker. I just know that you don't let a rabid dog go free when you know the owners can't control it. If Libya can't keep its dogs leashed, so to speak, then other forces might need to step in and put the dog down.

Don't hide behind that bullshit; you gotta have an idea of what you want other than some vaguely worded tripe. Stop being some fucking cur and come out with what you want to do. Shep may have been a fucking psychopath, but at least he was very clear on his intent; are you too much of a coward to even voice what you'd like to have happen?

[Jub]

by virtue of the fact that most of those people have been dealing with oppression at the hands of the West either directly or indirectly and that this sort of shit is essentially saying to them "we hate you simply because you are Muslim". They feel attacked on all fronts and the only people who have fought for them have been the hardline Islamic fundamentalists. The only way they have any power in their lives is to join up with Islamic fundamentalists.

So, yeah, you're free to do stupid shit like that all day. However, bear in mind that to them, it's basically another attack from the West. It's no different then the WBC saying God hates fags, basically.

Congratulations, you're Fred Phelps. I bet that makes you feel like a big man, eh?

I'm not oppressing anybody nor have I done anything like what I've described. I'm simply saying that they have no right to get violent when people choose to do these things. If they do get violent and try to attack people then some government, ours or theirs, needs to step in and stop them.

Of course. Oversight. That's why so many civilians have been killed at wedding parties or funerals.

I don't make those calls. At least, in theory, people are held accountable for that.

Again, what's your plan, Jub-Jub? Are you a Nazi or not?

Why should I have a plan for this? It's way above my pay grade and I don't have access to the advisers needed to even start trying to fix this.

Don't hide behind that bullshit; you gotta have an idea of what you want other than some vaguely worded tripe. Stop being some fucking cur and come out with what you want to do. Shep may have been a fucking psychopath, but at least he was very clear on his intent; are you too much of a coward to even voice what you'd like to have happen?

I don't hear an options fro you besides, "We should be nice to the backassward crazies" so you're in the same damned boat as I am.

[Zadius]

Islam forbid their followers from depicting Muhammad in any way, not even in a glorious manner. If they can be offended by a positive portrayal of their prophet, what sort of reaction do you think will happen if you draw a cartoon openly mocking him?

In their view, there is no reason why they should agree with you that a drawing isn't an open provocation.

I understand their delusions full well. The only reason you've given for why I should respect it is that they will kill people if I don't. That doesn't make me want to respect it, it makes me want to fight it.

An emerging democratic society is an extremely fragile society. Furthermore, there is no reason to assume that an emerging democratic society in the middle east will even share the same western values and attitude towards religion.

I only expect them to accept that we don't have to share their values and attitudes.

At the end, you are just making it even easier for the fundamentalist to gain more influence. The more they can make an argument to the common Joe about how the western nations are disrespecting their culture and customs, the easier they can find people who are willingly to flock to their banners.

That only works on the people who abhor insults to the prophet more than they abhor murder, riots, threats, burning cars, and smashing windows. But those people are already extremists. If there are enough extremists such that what you say is true, then they are simply fucked. I'm more optimistic, but either way, it doesn't benefit us to cave in to their demands at all.

Try telling that to the families of the people killed as a result of all the cartoons and movies mocking Muhammad.

This isn't about Muslims getting pissed off at the cartoonist actions. This is about people are getting killed as a result of those cartoonist. This is something you seems to be ignoring.

I'm not ignoring that people have been killed. It makes me incredibly angry. But the anger is misdirected if it is aimed at video producers or cartoonists. They are not responsible for the overreactions of a few nuts.

[Jub]

Jesus, it's like no one can fucking read or put two and two together. To them, this shit is just the exclamation point on a fucking all-caps diatribe about how they deserve to be exterminated. The West has supported dictators, bombed civilians, and otherwise engaged in various campaigns of terror for decades and there are more than a few people stating outright that they should be exterminated. Maybe they're pissed because they have a legitimate reason?

But, no, must be because they hate freedom. :V

So because some of us have done bad things to them they get a pass if they are mad at all of us? Included when they kill people that haven't harmed or spoken out against them? I don't hate all of them, I hate the assholes who kill innocent people because of some insult to their fairy in the sky. Our reasons for going to the Mid East might not much better, but in many cases they ask for our help and then bitch when we offer it.

[Crazedwraith]

Personally, I think yes, there should be a limit to free speech. Some countries already have hate speech laws in place and this would just be an extension of that.

The key difference I see between this sort of thing and the comparisons to things like 'being beaten up for being in the south while black' or whatever. Is that these are examples of being rilled up by things that are unintentional and side products of you actual activity. Wheras publishing cartoons of mohammad, just to piss off muslims is an asshole move.

Showing these cartoons just to say 'i don't care you don't like depictions of mohammed. free speech bitches. neyer-neyer-neyer'. Is deeply stupid.

I may feel differently if they have actual message beyond this. But using free speech, just because you can? Why?

[Jub]

Personally, I think yes, there should be a limit to free speech. Some countries already have hate speech laws in place and this would just be an extension of that.

The key difference I see between this sort of thing and the comparisons to things like 'being beaten up for being in the south while black' or whatever. Is that these are examples of being rilled up by things that are unintentional and side products of you actual activity. Wheras publishing cartoons of mohammad, just to piss off muslims is an asshole move.

Showing these cartoons just to say 'i don't care you don't like depictions of mohammed. free speech bitches. neyer-neyer-neyer'. Is deeply stupid.

I may feel differently if they have actual message beyond this. But using free speech, just because you can? Why?

Marrying a man just because you can? Why?

Marrying interracially just because you can? Why?

Speaking out against Jesus just because you can? Why?

Teaching evolution just because you can? Why?

Showing that much skin just because you can? Why?

Breastfeeding in public just because you can? Why?

You're telling me that it's wrong to piss off a group of people who hate me and my basic rights is wrong. You're telling me that I should care that he believes so strongly in a myth because he might snap. Why? It's not any fault of mine that he's where he is, and if he could respect life enough to not kill people unrelated to the actual act he hates then maybe I could understand, as it stands these crazy lunatics should be riled up and made to expose them selves as the loons they are.

[Crazedwraith]

Way to completely missing the point. All those examples of people going about their lives normally, doing things that happen to piss other people off as a by-product.

This is actively going out of your way to attack people you know will respond violently, so you can than complain that they've responded violently. And that's fucking stupid to me.

[ray245]

I'm not ignoring that people have been killed. It makes me incredibly angry. But the anger is misdirected if it is aimed at video producers or cartoonists. They are not responsible for the overreactions of a few nuts.

No one is arguing that the mob should be absolved of their fault in the death of people working at the embassies, nor am I arguing the cartoonist and video producers are more responsible for the violent outbreak than the protesters.

I simply do not agree that we should absolve the cartoonist and video producers of any blame whatsoever. If they want to proudly parade how they can exercise their rights, then make sure your actions does not bring harm to others. It is a cowardly act if you are mocking Islam while hiding behind your government's protection, while people who are actively trying to help build ties between your nations and the middle east are getting killed as a result.

They definitely hold a certain level of responsibility for their actions, just like how a person who provoke an wild-life animal that causes harm to others should be blamed as well.

Congrats. You have just given Special Rights to Muslims who aren't even residents of your country. You are willing to sacrifice your rights. You are willing to sacrifice MY RIGHTS. All for the actions of people across the planet. And because it wouldn't be fair to give one religion more rights than others, you would have to apply those laws across the board. So when it was first illegal to criticize Islam, it now becomes illegal to criticize Christianity.

You have sacrificed significant freedoms in the name of the Lowest Common Denominator.

I do not believe that your rights extend to causing death to your own countrymen. Especially when any violent acts that will occur as a result of your actions goes beyond the legal jurisdiction of your government.

Dealing with Islamic fundamentalist in your country is different from dealing with Islamic fundamentalist in other countries. You have a right to prosecute anyone in your country that attempts to kill or maim anyone who exercise their freedom of speech to criticise religion. You do not have a right when you are dealing with nations that could very well ignore your demand for any legal punishments towards those fundamentalist.





More importantly, there is NOTHING you can do to those violent fundamentalist down there. You can complain all you want about it being their fault, but the fact remains, there is nothing we can do to punish them for their actions.

[Jub]

Way to completely missing the point. All those examples of people going about their lives normally, doing things that happen to piss other people off as a by-product.

This is actively going out of your way to attack people you know will respond violently, so you can than complain that they've responded violently. And that's fucking stupid to me.

Why should I have to respect the rules of a culture I'm not part of while being safe in my own nation?

What if I made an art exhibit called dying gods and shat all over all religions equally? Artists have been pissing people off since the dawn of time and such an exhibit would show that crazy Christians are almost as the fundie Muslims. That would, in fact, be the entire point of such an exhibit.