French Mohammed cartooons

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Crazedwraith
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Crazedwraith »

Jub wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Way to completely missing the point. All those examples of people going about their lives normally, doing things that happen to piss other people off as a by-product.

This is actively going out of your way to attack people you know will respond violently, so you can than complain that they've responded violently. And that's fucking stupid to me.
Why should I have to respect the rules of a culture I'm not part of while being safe in my own nation?
How about because you have a fucking conscience and respect for human life? Or just you know: empathy?!

What if I made an art exhibit called dying gods and shat all over all religions equally? Artists have been pissing people off since the dawn of time and such an exhibit would show that crazy Christians are almost as the fundie Muslims. That would, in fact, be the entire point of such an exhibit.
Like I said, if you have an actual point beyond 'nyer-nyer-nyer', I'd be more understanding.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Akhlut »

Jub wrote:So because some of us have done bad things to them they get a pass if they are mad at all of us? Included when they kill people that haven't harmed or spoken out against them? I don't hate all of them, I hate the assholes who kill innocent people because of some insult to their fairy in the sky. Our reasons for going to the Mid East might not much better, but in many cases they ask for our help and then bitch when we offer it.
You're a fucking idiot. You stated above that you want to have an imperial government rule over them AND that you think Western governments can legitimately bomb the hell out of them and its okay.

You fucking supported the two main reasons why most of Dar al-Islam fucking hates the West, and yet you're bitching and moaning that they get pissed when Western people do yet more shit to piss them off.

You fucking mouth-breather.


As for my solution: time-travel so we can fucking nuke Paris in 1850 and tell them to keep out of the Middle East forever and ever. :V

Seriously, though, in a very broad manner, the best thing we can do is provide the people education, forgive all debts they owe to any nations, offer help without strings attached while keeping our military presence down to a minimum, while admitting a long, brutal legacy of fuck ups. It might not be the perfect plan, but it should engender a shitload more goodwill than supporting brutal dictatorships for decades.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Alkaloid »

Is it really this hard to understand Jub? When making a decision there are a few things you should consider. One is "can I do this?" Or am legally able/do I have the right do this? In the case drawing an offensive cartoon/making an offensive film of Muhammad, the answer is yes, and I've seen very few people in this thread dispute that. I'm inclined to agree, you should be allowed to if you want to.

The second is should I do this? In this stage of the decision making process we try to think what the consequences of this action might be(in this case, extremist muslims riot/kill people on the other side of the world) and balance them against what we hope to achieve by taking the particular action. If your only goal is to piss of Muslims, then if you think the lives of innocent people are a price worth paying for pissing off muslims you will most likely go ahead. I would suggest they aren't, but hey, I'm not everybody. If you had another goal, say a multi page satirical spread featuring Muhammad explaining why depictions of him are considered blasphemy (the reason, in case you were wondering, is to try and stop things like this happening) in an attempt to make some extremists realise that what they are doing is stupid, well I might be more for it. It's still a risk but at least you are trying to be productive.

Having the right to do something absolves you of the legal responsibilities of your action. It is left to you to consider the moral ones, you have the freedom to choose to behave like an adult human being with a functioning moral compass or not, and legally you measure up the same, but morally one of those choices still makes you an arsehole.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by mr friendly guy »

You know what. I have a solution. The Muslims should just kill the cartoonists and film makers with a drone strike. And then say they were really trying to harm us, but since they are kind of dead, I guess there is no need for things like court cases. Its the American Obama way. Just ask Anwar al-Awlaki. Oh wait you can't. He got killed in a drone strike. :D

If this wasn't tragic in the making it would be comedy gold. People talking about freedom of speech, while France denies Muslims their freedom of speech. People talking about how its wrong to go ape shit over other people saying things you don't like, yet Obama kills someone with a drone strike for doing that.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

I don't think most of us support the France's denying Muslims their right to free speech, or Obama's assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki. Jub doesn't speak for the majority of us who support freedom of speech. He comes off as a frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic to me, with his talk of "putting down rabid dogs".
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Losonti Tokash
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Losonti Tokash »

What I love most about this thread isn't the people who think actions occur in a vaccum devoid of any context, or even the white men in powerful, wealthy nations who directly compare themselves to oppressed ethnic groups in the United States. No, it's the fact that thanks to contributions from people like Jub and Crackpot, I could literally start reposting stuff from Stormfront and FreeRepublic and no one would notice.
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Spoonist
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Spoonist »

Here is a comparison excercise.
South Park has done some pretty offensive stuff visavi religion including islam.
If one thinks that we should censor the french cartoonist, should we also censor (or ask for self censorship) of South Park.
If not then what is the difference?

Another comparison exercise:
Should atheists be allowed to vent against religion? Like Maher et al.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Alkaloid »

They shouldn't be censored, no, if they choose to do it they can do it. Neither should French cartoonists.

The difference lies in the intent. It is very unlikely Parker and Stone made material offensive to muslims for the express purpose of pissing off muslims, especially given their history of targeting or offending every ethnic or religious group they can lay their eyes on in a effort to be funny. It would appear this magazine is publishing the cartoon specifically to offend muslims. They may not be, they may have another purpose altogether, I've never read the magazine itself so they might have the same history and are looking for a laugh, I don't know and I wont unless I see the cartoon itself. But I'd like to think you can see the difference between making comedy that offends some people and between publishing a picture with the intent of offending people because you don't like them.

And sure, atheists should be allowed to vent. That doesn't mean they should be surprised if people get upset at you for pissing on a church or something similar just to upset them.
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ray245
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by ray245 »

Spoonist wrote:Here is a comparison excercise.
South Park has done some pretty offensive stuff visavi religion including islam.
If one thinks that we should censor the french cartoonist, should we also censor (or ask for self censorship) of South Park.
If not then what is the difference?

Another comparison exercise:
Should atheists be allowed to vent against religion? Like Maher et al.
Didn't Comedy Central self-censor that episode of South Park?

It seems that there are tolerance levels even for the extremist. General attacks and criticism against Islam, like how it is against woman rights and modern human rights generally do not result in a mob storming the embassies walls.

Committing acts of blasphemy in the eyes of Muslims, such as criticising and openly mocking Prophet Muhammad himself is on a whole new level for Muslims, moderates and extremist alike.

The difference lies in the intent. It is very unlikely Parker and Stone made material offensive to muslims for the express purpose of pissing off muslims, especially given their history of targeting or offending every ethnic or religious group they can lay their eyes on in a effort to be funny. It would appear this magazine is publishing the cartoon specifically to offend muslims. They may not be, they may have another purpose altogether, I've never read the magazine itself so they might have the same history and are looking for a laugh, I don't know and I wont unless I see the cartoon itself. But I'd like to think you can see the difference between making comedy that offends some people and between publishing a picture with the intent of offending people because you don't like them.
To add to this, the timing of such drawings couldn't be at a much worse time. To deliberately publish a drawing after ambassadors were killed thanks to some guys effort to mock Muhammad, speaks volumes about the intention of the cartoonist.
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Losonti Tokash
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Ray, the attack in Benghazi was not in response to the video, it was a retaliatory attack by al-Qaeda for the death of a higher-up.

The histrionics over the cartoons also ignores how it directly undermines the voices of peace advocates in these countries who even now stage counter protests against violence, or how people exert cultural pressure to censor speech all the time and no one bats an eye. How many are such ardent supporters of totally unrestricted speech when someone gets their shit ruined for using a racial slur on television or like when Akin says women don't get pregnant from "legitimate" rape?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Broken »

Here is a New York Times article that attempts to explain, at least partially, why riots occur over actions like this movie and the various Muhammad drawings.
New York Times wrote: Cultural Clash Fuels Muslims Angry at Online Video

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: September 16, 2012

CAIRO — Stepping from the cloud of tear gas in front of the American Embassy here, Khaled Ali repeated the urgent question that he said justified last week’s violent protests at United States outposts around the Muslim world.

“We never insult any prophet — not Moses, not Jesus — so why can’t we demand that Muhammad be respected?” Mr. Ali, a 39-year-old textile worker said, holding up a handwritten sign in English that read “Shut Up America.” “Obama is the president, so he should have to apologize!”

When the protests against an American-made online video mocking the Prophet Muhammad exploded in about 20 countries, the source of the rage was more than just religious sensitivity, political demagogy or resentment of Washington, protesters and their sympathizers here said. It was also a demand that many of them described with the word “freedom,” although in a context very different from the term’s use in the individualistic West: the right of a community, whether Muslim, Christian or Jewish, to be free from grave insult to its identity and values.

That demand, in turn, was swept up in the colliding crosscurrents of regional politics. From one side came the gale of anger at America’s decade-old war against terrorism, which in the eyes of many Muslims in the region often looks like a war against them. And from the other, the new winds blowing through the region in the aftermath of the Arab Spring, which to many here means most of all a right to demand respect for the popular will.

“We want these countries to understand that they need to take into consideration the people, and not just the governments,” said Ismail Mohamed, 42, a religious scholar who once was an imam in Germany. “We don’t think that depictions of the prophets are freedom of expression. We think it is an offense against our rights,” he said, adding, “The West has to understand the ideology of the people.”

Even during the protests, some stone throwers stressed that the clash was not Muslim against Christian. Instead, they suggested that the traditionalism of people of both faiths in the region conflicted with Western individualism and secularism.

Youssef Sidhom, the editor of the Coptic Christian newspaper Watani, said he objected only to the violence of the protests.

Mr. Sidhom approvingly recalled the uproar among Egyptian Christians that greeted the 2006 film “The Da Vinci Code,” which was seen as an affront to aspects of traditional Christianity and the persona of Jesus. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and other Arab countries banned both the film and the book on which it was based. And in Egypt, where insulting any of the three Abrahamic religions is a crime, the police even arrested the head of a local film company for importing 2,000 copies of the DVD, according to news reports.

“This reaction is expected,” Mr. Sidhom said of last week’s protests, “and if it had stayed peaceful I would have said I supported it and understood.”

In a context where insults to religion are crimes and the state has tightly controlled almost all media, many in Egypt, like other Arab countries, sometimes find it hard to understand that the American government feels limited by its free speech rules from silencing even the most noxious religious bigot.

In his statement after protesters breached the walls of the United States Embassy last Tuesday, the spiritual leader of the Egypt’s mainstream Islamist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, declared that “the West” had imposed laws against “those who deny or express dissident views on the Holocaust or question the number of Jews killed by Hitler, a topic which is purely historical, not a sacred doctrine.”

In fact, denying the Holocaust is also protected as free speech in the United States, although it is prohibited in Germany and a few other European countries. But the belief that it is illegal in the United States is widespread in Egypt, and the Brotherhood’s spiritual leader, Mohamed Badie, called for the “criminalizing of assaults on the sanctities of all heavenly religions.”

“Otherwise, such acts will continue to cause devout Muslims across the world to suspect and even loathe the West, especially the U.S.A., for allowing their citizens to violate the sanctity of what they hold dear and holy,” he said. “Certainly, such attacks against sanctities do not fall under the freedom of opinion or thought.”

Several protesters said during the heat of last week’s battles here that they were astonished that the United States had not punished the filmmakers. “Everyone across all these countries has the same anger, they are rising up for the same reason and with the same demands, and still no action is taken against the people who made that film,” said Zakaria Magdy, 23, a printer.

In the West, many may express astonishment that the murder of Muslims in hate crimes does not provoke the same level of global outrage as the video did. But even a day after the clashes in Cairo had subsided, many Egyptians argued that a slur against their faith was a greater offense than any attack on a living person.

“When you hurt someone, you are just hurting one person,” said Ahmed Shobaky, 42, a jeweler. “But when you insult a faith like that, you are insulting a whole nation that feels the pain.”

Mr. Mohamed, the religious scholar, justified it this way: “Our prophet is more dear to us than our family and our nation.”

Others said that the outpouring of outrage against the video had built up over a long period of perceived denigrations of Muslims and their faith by the United States or its military, which are detailed extensively in the Arab news media: the invasion of Iraq on a discredited pretext; the images of abuse from the Abu Ghraib prison; the burning or desecrations of the Koran by troops in Afghanistan and a pastor in Florida; detentions without trial at Guantánamo Bay; the denials of visas to prominent Muslim intellectuals; the deaths of Muslim civilians as collateral damage in drone strikes; even political campaigns against the specter of Islamic law inside the United States.

“This is not the first time that Muslim beliefs are being insulted or Muslims humiliated,” said Emad Shahin, a political scientist at the American University in Cairo.

While he stressed that no one should ever condone violence against diplomats or embassies because of even the most offensive film, Mr. Shahin said it was easy to see why the protesters focused on the United States government’s outposts. “There is a war going on here,” he said. “This was a straw, if you will, that broke the camel’s back.

“The message here is we don’t care about your beliefs — that because of our freedom of expression we can demean them and degrade them any time, and we do not care about your feelings.”

There are also purely local dynamics that can fan the flames. In Tunis, an American school was set on fire by protesters angry over the video — but then looted of computers and musical instruments by people in the neighborhood.

Here in Cairo, ultraconservative Islamists known as Salafis initially helped drum up outrage against the video and rally their supporters to protest outside the embassy. But by the time darkness fell and a handful of young men climbed the embassy wall, the Salafis were nowhere to be found, and they stayed away the rest of the week.

Egyptian officials said that some non-Salafis involved in the embassy attacks confessed to receiving payments, although no payer had been identified. But after the first afternoon, the next three days of protests were dominated by a relatively small number of teenagers and young men — including die-hard soccer fans known as ultras. They appeared to have been motivated mainly by the opportunity to attack the police, whom they revile.

Some commentators said they regretted that the violence here and around the region had overshadowed the underlying argument against the offensive video. “Our performance came out like that of a failed lawyer in a no-lose case,” Wael Kandil, an editor of the newspaper Sharouq, wrote in a column on Sunday. “We served our opponents something that made them drop the main issue and take us to the margins — this is what we accomplished with our bad performance.”

Mohamed Sabry, 29, a sculptor and art teacher at a downtown cafe, said he saw a darker picture. “To see the Islamic world in this condition of underdevelopment,” he said, “this is a bigger insult to the prophet.”

Mai Ayyad contributed reporting.
An interesting read and as usual the entire affair is more complex then "they should get over it" or "they hate us for our freedoms". We are dealing with a different culture then we see in the United States or other western nations. They have different standards for behavior and responses to actions just as events in our own nations's history would warrant different behavior and responses now then when they occurred. No, that does not excuse murder or terror attacks; but ignoring reality does not make it go away either. There are a small number of extremist who will react violently and there are more moderates who will loudly decry in the streets actions they view as blasphemy.

If we exercise our freedom of speech/expression then we will occasionally have to pay for the right and sometimes that appears to mean people will die. It is not moral or just that such things happen, but that matters little it would seem. I wish riots and deaths were not the response to ink on a page or images on a screen, but when you declare better those images never be created you have walled off a part of your rights and your culture and decided that such things are not worth protecting, but can be traded for the good behavior of those who do not have the same expectations of rights and culture that you do, that is not acceptable to me.
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ray245
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by ray245 »

Broken wrote: An interesting read and as usual the entire affair is more complex then "they should get over it" or "they hate us for our freedoms". We are dealing with a different culture then we see in the United States or other western nations. They have different standards for behavior and responses to actions just as events in our own nations's history would warrant different behavior and responses now then when they occurred. No, that does not excuse murder or terror attacks; but ignoring reality does not make it go away either. There are a small number of extremist who will react violently and there are more moderates who will loudly decry in the streets actions they view as blasphemy.

If we exercise our freedom of speech/expression then we will occasionally have to pay for the right and sometimes that appears to mean people will die. It is not moral or just that such things happen, but that matters little it would seem. I wish riots and deaths were not the response to ink on a page or images on a screen, but when you declare better those images never be created you have walled off a part of your rights and your culture and decided that such things are not worth protecting, but can be traded for the good behavior of those who do not have the same expectations of rights and culture that you do, that is not acceptable to me.
Hmm. this certainly brings up the debate over is it realistic to expect people from non-western/westernised nations to share the same view regarding freedom of speech.

We can cry over how those people in the middle east are not respecting our rights to freedom of speech, but there is nothing we can do about it. Those people do not care if you call them savage and barbarians over their actions, they think it is perfectly within their rights to attack your nation if you insult their religion.

If you guys really want to know what bowing down to the extremist is, take a look at my government's actions.


Singapore asks Google to block access to Islam film


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/singapore-asks ... 10633.html
Google on Thursday blocked YouTube users in Singapore from viewing clips of an anti-Islamic film that has incited violent protests across the Muslim world, acting on a request by city authorities.
Attempts to access the low-budget "Innocence of Muslims" film on the Google-owned video-sharing website resulted in a message reading: "This content is not available in your country due to a government removal request."
Google could not be reached to comment, but it has also blocked access to clips of the film in Muslim-majority neighbours Malaysia and Indonesia.
The Ministry of Home Affairs cited "security concerns" as the reason behind the request to Google in a press statement released Wednesday.
"The film 'Innocence of Muslims' has sparked off violent protests and riots that resulted in deaths and injuries in many parts of the world, including several countries in our region," the ministry said in the statement.
"The continued circulation of this film is likely to cause disharmony or feelings of ill-will between different groups in Singapore," it added.
Singapore has a predominantly Chinese population with minority races including Malays, who are mostly Muslim, making up 13.4 percent of its population of over five million, according to government data.
The city-state experienced racial riots in the 1960s and clamps down hard on anyone seen to be inciting communal tensions.
The US-produced film has angered Muslims worldwide for mocking the Prophet Mohammed and portraying Muslims as immoral and gratuitously violent.
In cities across the Islamic world, protesters have vented their fury at the amateur film by targeting symbols of US influence ranging from embassies and schools to fast food chains, leaving several dead.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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One thing to consider, that was brought up recently by Salman Rushdie when he was on the Daily Show recently.

Let say you live in some form of authoritarian government. Maybe it's a dictatorship or a military junta. Whatever the specific government, you live in a society that does not allow free expression. Everything you do and say has to be approved by the government, and you know people who have disappeared when they have done or said something that was not approved.

Then you see some movie or cartoon or editorial produced by someone living in a country who has a long antagonistic history with the one you live in. This production makes very prejudiced, personal attacks against your society and culture. Some of the attacks may be completely fabricated, some of them may contain a grain of truth. But all of them were specifically made to belittle or denigrate your society and everyone who lives in it.

After this production becomes public, the government of the country where the creator lives releases a statement saying that they don't agree with the message of the production, but they have absolutely no intention to do anything to restrict access to it. Would you believe a word they said?

As a more specific example, if a Saudi studio released a movie based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and King Saud himself came out and said that he doesn't agree with the movie, but he wasn't going to prevent it from being shown in cinemas, would anyone in this thread believe that he didn't endorse it?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

A picture, with almost no exceptions, is harmless to everybody so why should we blame the artist for drawing it no matter his motive? It's not his fault that people living in poor conditions feel the need to kill over it and it's his government's job to keep him safe and protect his right to do it. Is free speech really free when we're told to stop doing it because some uneducated moron a world a way might be offended?
Alkaloid wrote:They shouldn't be censored, no, if they choose to do it they can do it. Neither should French cartoonists.

The difference lies in the intent. It is very unlikely Parker and Stone made material offensive to muslims for the express purpose of pissing off muslims, especially given their history of targeting or offending every ethnic or religious group they can lay their eyes on in a effort to be funny. It would appear this magazine is publishing the cartoon specifically to offend muslims. They may not be, they may have another purpose altogether, I've never read the magazine itself so they might have the same history and are looking for a laugh, I don't know and I wont unless I see the cartoon itself. But I'd like to think you can see the difference between making comedy that offends some people and between publishing a picture with the intent of offending people because you don't like them.

And sure, atheists should be allowed to vent. That doesn't mean they should be surprised if people get upset at you for pissing on a church or something similar just to upset them.
They can get upset all hey like, that's their right. What they can't do is use force because they feel like you're oppressing them, or because they feel their holiest thing has been violated.
Losonti Tokash wrote:Ray, the attack in Benghazi was not in response to the video, it was a retaliatory attack by al-Qaeda for the death of a higher-up.

The histrionics over the cartoons also ignores how it directly undermines the voices of peace advocates in these countries who even now stage counter protests against violence, or how people exert cultural pressure to censor speech all the time and no one bats an eye. How many are such ardent supporters of totally unrestricted speech when someone gets their shit ruined for using a racial slur on television or like when Akin says women don't get pregnant from "legitimate" rape?
I fully support anybody's right to say what they like even if I find it stupid and offensive.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by CaptJodan »

ray245 wrote: If you guys really want to know what bowing down to the extremist is, take a look at my government's actions.
This strikes me as a perfectly reasonable response, if one is part of the "better to not poke the bear and have people die" crowd.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

Civil War Man wrote:One thing to consider, that was brought up recently by Salman Rushdie when he was on the Daily Show recently.

Let say you live in some form of authoritarian government. Maybe it's a dictatorship or a military junta. Whatever the specific government, you live in a society that does not allow free expression. Everything you do and say has to be approved by the government, and you know people who have disappeared when they have done or said something that was not approved.

Then you see some movie or cartoon or editorial produced by someone living in a country who has a long antagonistic history with the one you live in. This production makes very prejudiced, personal attacks against your society and culture. Some of the attacks may be completely fabricated, some of them may contain a grain of truth. But all of them were specifically made to belittle or denigrate your society and everyone who lives in it.

After this production becomes public, the government of the country where the creator lives releases a statement saying that they don't agree with the message of the production, but they have absolutely no intention to do anything to restrict access to it. Would you believe a word they said?

As a more specific example, if a Saudi studio released a movie based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and King Saud himself came out and said that he doesn't agree with the movie, but he wasn't going to prevent it from being shown in cinemas, would anyone in this thread believe that he didn't endorse it?
I guess it is a bit harder to understand freedom when your own people don't allow you any of it and outside nations always seem to make things even more muddled and backwards. However it's not the fault of the artist that these people aren't rational individuals, nor should we change our way of life to be more like what a backwards thinking group of nut jobs think we should be like. If they didn't sponsor terrorist attacks against innocent people I could forgive the actions of a few people making stupid angry choices. However enough of them choose to join these groups that I have a hard time feeling sorry for the rest of them when they take half-hearted steps to help us root out those that launch unprovoked attacks against us.
CaptJodan wrote:
ray245 wrote: If you guys really want to know what bowing down to the extremist is, take a look at my government's actions.
This strikes me as a perfectly reasonable response, if one is part of the "better to not poke the bear and have people die" crowd.
There's not poking the bear and then there's pretending that bears are mythical creatures.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Losonti Tokash »

So Jub, if a politician goes on and calls blacks/First Nations a race of savages who shouldn't be considered human, you'll just sit quietly and think "well that's mean"? Would you defend him against the people who would call his for his resignation, since they're trying to stifle his speech? Or even if they just called him a piece of shit and tried to get people to not vote for him next time? There's no legal action taken here, just cultural pressure against bigots.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

Losonti Tokash wrote:So Jub, if a politician goes on and calls blacks/First Nations a race of savages who shouldn't be considered human, you'll just sit quietly and think "well that's mean"? Would you defend him against the people who would call his for his resignation, since they're trying to stifle his speech? Or even if they just called him a piece of shit and tried to get people to not vote for him next time? There's no legal action taken here, just cultural pressure against bigots.
If people call for him to resign I would support them as long as they use the means given to them by the law to get him ousted from power. They have every right to to tell him what they think and tell him they shouldn't represent them any more. They have this right because he speaks for all of them and not just himself.

An artist, in most cases, only speaks for himself and it's only the people offended by him that see him as speaking for everybody.
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CaptJodan
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by CaptJodan »

Jub wrote: There's not poking the bear and then there's pretending that bears are mythical creatures.
Huh? I don't think anyone thinks that the Muslims are mythical creatures.
Losonti Tokash wrote:So Jub, if a politician goes on and calls blacks/First Nations a race of savages who shouldn't be considered human, you'll just sit quietly and think "well that's mean"? Would you defend him against the people who would call his for his resignation, since they're trying to stifle his speech? Or even if they just called him a piece of shit and tried to get people to not vote for him next time? There's no legal action taken here, just cultural pressure against bigots.
I think you can make a solid case that this sort of thing happens all the time with the Phelps clan. His supporters go out, protest the funerals of dead soldiers and states highly offensive things. People on all sides of the political and religious isle are pissed off by this. It's offensive, degrading, disrespectful. And the response so far to it has been to organize a counter protest to block them from interfering with the funeral. No guns or bombs required.

And despite their scum sucking message, and the fact that their intent is to piss you off and rile you up, you'll still probably find a large majority of Americans believing they have a right to protest.

This does not seem to be a perspective shared by those rioting or even in support of the message behind the rioters, who believe that speech insulting or denigrating a religion should be banned. The more I see on this topic, the more it becomes clear that there is a cultural problem here not easily resolved. Our culture is not going to accept limits on the freedom to criticize their, or any, religion, especially when said expression was practiced within our (US) boarders. Their culture believes criticism of religion is going too far for freedom of speech, and should be curtailed. In the age of Youtube, this is hard to deal with.
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Losonti Tokash
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Except by calling for resignations or counter-protests, you're trying to stifle their speech. You would presumably have no problem telling someone who used a racial slur to get the fuck out of here. Then again, people have used racist rhetoric in this very thread so who knows.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

Losonti Tokash wrote:Except by calling for resignations or counter-protests, you're trying to stifle their speech. You would presumably have no problem telling someone who used a racial slur to get the fuck out of here. Then again, people have used racist rhetoric in this very thread so who knows.
No, no you are not. He agreed to represent the people in his district, or city, or whatever. He knows that because he speaks for more than just himself, that he has to be accountable for what he says. Thus, you are well within your rights to call for the resignation of a political leader if you feel he no longer represents your interests.

A private citizen has not agreed to this by running for a position where he speaks for many people.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

CaptJodan wrote:
Jub wrote: There's not poking the bear and then there's pretending that bears are mythical creatures.
Huh? I don't think anyone thinks that the Muslims are mythical creatures.
Blocking the video and pretending the problem doesn't exist is pretty much the same thing.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Civil War Man »

Jub wrote:I guess it is a bit harder to understand freedom when your own people don't allow you any of it and outside nations always seem to make things even more muddled and backwards. However it's not the fault of the artist that these people aren't rational individuals, nor should we change our way of life to be more like what a backwards thinking group of nut jobs think we should be like. If they didn't sponsor terrorist attacks against innocent people I could forgive the actions of a few people making stupid angry choices. However enough of them choose to join these groups that I have a hard time feeling sorry for the rest of them when they take half-hearted steps to help us root out those that launch unprovoked attacks against us.
It's not just "oh they don't understand freedom." They live in a society where everything is filtered by their leaders, and the idiots who did the Innocence of Muslims movie and the Mohammed cartoons give those leaders plenty to work with, as do people who make it even harder to defuse the situation by using the same language that many (including you) are using in this thread. If your house burns down, the person who lit the match bears the ultimate blame, but that does not absolve the people who stacked kindling in your living room or soaked your drapes in gasoline.

Let's do a little roleplaying. I'll play the part of a Libyan who just connected to the internet and, through random chance, happened upon this message board. In it, I find this thread and others like it, where I see people saying that my friends are barbarians who can't even form a modicum of civilization without a US-friendly dictator. I see posts comparing my family to wild animals. I see posts calling for my neighbours to be "put down" like "rabid dogs" (protip: put down in this context means killed). I see posts where the author openly views me as subhuman due to the circumstances of my birth and childhood.

So explain to this hypothetical Libyan internet user: why the fuck should I care about your freedom of speech when the only thing I see it being used for is advocating the oppression and murder of myself and everyone I know?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Jub »

Civil War Man wrote:
Jub wrote:I guess it is a bit harder to understand freedom when your own people don't allow you any of it and outside nations always seem to make things even more muddled and backwards. However it's not the fault of the artist that these people aren't rational individuals, nor should we change our way of life to be more like what a backwards thinking group of nut jobs think we should be like. If they didn't sponsor terrorist attacks against innocent people I could forgive the actions of a few people making stupid angry choices. However enough of them choose to join these groups that I have a hard time feeling sorry for the rest of them when they take half-hearted steps to help us root out those that launch unprovoked attacks against us.
It's not just "oh they don't understand freedom." They live in a society where everything is filtered by their leaders, and the idiots who did the Innocence of Muslims movie and the Mohammed cartoons give those leaders plenty to work with, as do people who make it even harder to defuse the situation by using the same language that many (including you) are using in this thread. If your house burns down, the person who lit the match bears the ultimate blame, but that does not absolve the people who stacked kindling in your living room or soaked your drapes in gasoline.

Let's do a little roleplaying. I'll play the part of a Libyan who just connected to the internet and, through random chance, happened upon this message board. In it, I find this thread and others like it, where I see people saying that my friends are barbarians who can't even form a modicum of civilization without a US-friendly dictator. I see posts comparing my family to wild animals. I see posts calling for my neighbours to be "put down" like "rabid dogs" (protip: put down in this context means killed). I see posts where the author openly views me as subhuman due to the circumstances of my birth and childhood.

So explain to this hypothetical Libyan internet user: why the fuck should I care about your freedom of speech when the only thing I see it being used for is advocating the oppression and murder of myself and everyone I know?
The blame doesn't lay, even in part, on the creator of the video or cartoon, the blame starts with the people who use it to whip people into a frenzy and ends with the person committing acts of violence. In your example, the cartoonists and video creators merely cut the wood and pumped the gas, the religious leaders and figure heads stacked the kindling, and religious extremists are the burning head of the match.

The creator has a freedom to say what he wishes and a right to live in safety the same as any man should have. The offended party has every right to speak out about it and protest, the French stance on this is wrong, but their rights end well short of violence. That they don't even understand this is what makes them seem low in my eyes.

His family and neighbors are more likely to desire to kill somebody than my family. They likely are less tolerant than most people I will deal with in a year. Their neighbors kill soldiers who came to their nation in response to deadly attacks on civilians. Even when our soldiers dig ditches and provide aid they fall under attack and call for us to leave. Who but a rabid dog would bite the hand that tries to rid them of mange?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Lusankya »

Jub wrote:Who but a rabid dog would bite the hand that tries to rid them of mange?
An abused dog, maybe?

It's easy to be all " but I wouldn't riot like that" when you grow up with privilege, because people actually listen to you when you ave a problem. Compare that to the Muslims: nobody gives a shit about what's going on where they are unless people are dying. And don't give some bullshit about them being able to make their displeasure known with peaceful protests. Like CNN would even give enough of a shit to report on That. Even then, the West's response to the situation is not "let's try to improve relations with the Middle East so that they won't see events like this as yet another round of us being Imperialistic pricks to them" but rather "let's insult them MOAR because the best way to get them to understand freedom is to use it to undermine their culture."
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