peaceniks go on rampage, destroy 9/11 memorial in California

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 02:23pm

Hameru, what is that, a Left wing conspriracy theory

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-03-11 03:20pm

theski wrote:Hameru, what is that, a left wing conspiracy theory?/

Well, that article brings forth no evidence of them being anti-war protestors. That, and the cop ignoring the vandalism should clue you in on the bullshit immediately.

It is far more likely that they're paid provacateurs or anarchists. I don't see why this would be viewed as paranoia, since we know Italy pulled this crap during one of the WTO gettogethers, and the US did it during the Vietnam protests.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 03:27pm

You really think that someone paid these people to destroy the 9-11 monument??? That is paranoia at its finest. You really have the anti-american bug bad..

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-03-11 04:01pm

theski wrote:You really think that someone paid these people to destroy the 9-11 monument???

That's what I'm inclined to believe, considering all that's happened.

That is paranoia at its finest. You really have the anti-american bug bad..

Call it what you want, but our government planted provacateurs in the 60s peace movements. Italy did it during WTO protests. If they can turn public opinion against the protests via hijacking the movement, they'll gain more support than ever.

BTW, spare me the "anti-american" nonsense.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 04:11pm

BTW, if you read all of your posts (that is exactly what it is)

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-03-11 04:13pm

theski wrote:BTW, if you read all of your posts (that is exactly what it is)

Point out, from the article, evidence that these vandals are anti-war protestors, and that the vadalism was politically motivated.

Also, please explain why an officer would do nothing about a vandalism taking place right in front of him. Explain why this happened despite the fact that there are no leftists that have been able to vandalize something in front of an officer and not be arrested.

While you're at it, re-write history to make sure that governments never planted provacateurs in groups that went against the grain.

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-03-11 04:45pm

I know this attitude will get me flamed to a crisp, but overall I agree with the sentiment. While there might have been some unrest before 9/11, we were nowhere near the current level of McCarthyism that we are now. Anyone who can't see that, and many of the historic parallells, is a fool.

Remember all those little plastic flags that were flying after 9/11? Do you think that anyone took the time to dispose of them properly? It's illegal to dispose of a flag except in certain circumstances. Technically, that kind of desecration is just as bad as what the protesters did.

Now then, given how people are thinking, I'll be accused of being un-American, and I guess I might be, to some extent. I've been getting tired of the flag waving and the chest beating. Has anyone checked up on rates of terrorism outside the US? We've been pretty much unscathed, and one of the reasons other countries have been dumping on the US and "Murkians" is this "poor us" mentality.

I find both sides of this thing pretty stupid, now that I think about it. 9/11 was horrible, granted. MOVE THE FUCK ON. When people were petitioning to have the title of The Two Towers changed, it's gone too far. 9/11 was terrible, and sad, and its done now. Let it be.

The memorials keep memories of 9/11 fresh. This isn't necessary. I lost friends, and my father was on a later flight on the same route (as the jet that was crashed into the WTC) that day. The biggest effect of these memorials, the unofficial ones, is to make it simpler to manipulate American feelings about related issues. I don't have a beef with the memorial at the WTC site, as we do need one.

I'm not going to agree with the protesters actions. They did commit vandalism.

I applaud their motives, and I will close with two links. Cogitate upon them, if you will.

Dulce Et Decorum Est

War, by Edwin Starr

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 05:15pm

Where to start HMMM.
1. Please give a example of McCarthyism and not the Patriot act(it will not get passed)
2. Are you really equateing the disposal of the little flags ,to burning them and destroying a memorial
3. When was the last time a country lost 2500 to a terrorist attack, Israel maybe on total, and they get slammed by the left when they strike back.
4. So maybe you should visit the big open space in NY and take a good look.

BTW: We will never forget nor should we..

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-11 05:18pm

Gee, after seeing that article, I want to resign from the Army and join the peace movement....

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-11 05:39pm

Hameru wrote:I read over the article again. Makes me go "hmmmmm"

A cop, witnessing vandalism taking place, does nothing about it? Sounds like bullshit to me. The only witnesses were the officers (on a saturday afternoon of all times.)

Ever heard of a stupid peacenik cop? Yes, while rare, they do exist.

The article gave no evidence of political intent behind the vandalism; no evidence put forth that they were really anti-war protestors.

Sigh...

It would be good if you would just open up your FREAKING EYES.

What do you think they were doing? Protesting mistreatment of mice?

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-11 05:42pm

So, Hector, you are suggesting we just up and forget 9/11?

And you applaud them for doing this?

I am truly speechless. I cannot think of sufficient wording for a reply to those statements you made.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-03-11 06:43pm

Ever heard of a stupid peacenik cop? Yes, while rare, they do exist.

I've never heard of ANY cop ignoring a vandalism that took place right in front of them. If this story is factual, and this "peacenik" cop really did nothing to the vandals, then it would be the first time in the history of the world.

Sigh...

It would be good if you would just open up your FREAKING EYES.

What do you think they were doing? Protesting mistreatment of mice?

Sigh...

Are you so full of hate towards protestors and so gullible to the lies of the administration that you'll believe every bullshit story that you see? Are you not aware that the government has done exactly what I've accused them of in the past?

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-11 06:48pm

Hameru wrote:
theski wrote:You really think that someone paid these people to destroy the 9-11 monument???
That's what I'm inclined to believe, considering all that's happened.

That is paranoia at its finest. You really have the anti-american bug bad..
Call it what you want, but our government planted provacateurs in the 60s peace movements. Italy did it during WTO protests. If they can turn public opinion against the protests via hijacking the movement, they'll gain more support than ever.

BTW, spare me the "anti-american" nonsense.

You are parnoid out the wazoo, you know that?

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-03-11 06:49pm

Hameru wrote:
Ever heard of a stupid peacenik cop? Yes, while rare, they do exist.
I've never heard of ANY cop ignoring a vandalism that took place right in front of them. If this story is factual, and this "peacenik" cop really did nothing to the vandals, then it would be the first time in the history of the world.

Sigh...

It would be good if you would just open up your FREAKING EYES.

What do you think they were doing? Protesting mistreatment of mice?
Sigh...

Are you so full of hate towards protestors and so gullible to the lies of the administration that you'll believe every bullshit story that you see? Are you not aware that the government has done exactly what I've accused them of in the past?

What would you expect a few cops to do with a rampaging mob? Attack them?

I have no hatred of protestors, they are exercising their rights. In fact, if no one ever protested anything, the purpose of democracy would be lost.

Of course, you are also so blinded by paranoia that you think that everything that happens is set up by the government.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-03-11 06:59pm

Hmm...this is interesting.

So far, I think, it comes to this:
If the memorial called for the "support of our troops", then I'm ready to believe in some fucked-up peaceniks.

If, however, there had been no political content whatsoever, then I accept the possibility of a government provocation. It's not a very big possibility, that's for sure, but it's possible.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-03-11 07:03pm

theski wrote:Where to start HMMM.
1. Please give a example of McCarthyism and not the Patriot act(it will not get passed)

Sorry, but the US Patriot Act got passed on October 26, 2001, according to the EFF and EPIC. If you're referring to Patriot II, my apologies.

EPIC notice.
EFF notice
EFF analysis.

Now then, you did request other examples of McCarthyism.

FBI gets library records of computer use without a subpoena or court order.

Neighbourhood Watch program website wrote: report any behavior or event that seems to be outside the norm or is frightening but does not immediately endanger lives or property.

FBI can profile using info from market reseaerch firms. Restrictions that prohibit use of info from public places (put in place after the FBI abused these powers) have been removed.

FISA wiretaps are allowed on any criminal if there are possible national security implications.

theski wrote:2. Are you really equateing the disposal of the little flags ,to burning them and destroying a memorial.

Legally, it's the same thing. I know that my grandfather (who is a Vietnam vet) considers it the same thing. I'd say it's the same thing, but of a lesser degree. The people who bought flags and tossed them showed the same amount of respect for the flag. Because they did it to their own flag, it's of a lower degree.

The flags were intended to show patriotic feeling, as well as be a memorial to 9/11...

theski wrote:3. When was the last time a country lost 2500 to a terrorist attack, Israel maybe on total, and they get slammed by the left when they strike back.

Given the security of other nations in situations allowing large numbers of deaths, there haven't been any. Between 1995 and 2000, the largest total number of deaths was 741. Conceded that 9/11 was worse. However, we can stop invoking as justification to defy the UN and spying on citizens.

theski wrote:4. So maybe you should visit the big open space in NY and take a good look.

To do what? See that 9/11 happened? I know it happened. Learn about the tragedy of the loss of human life? I know about that as well, and was able to learn it before 9/11. To grasp that everyone in the Towers were fully patriotic Americans who would rejoice in this tragedy being used for domestic spying? I don't think so..

Please make a point on this count.

Cap'n Hector · Post by **Cap'n Hector** » 2003-03-11 07:11pm

NF_Utvol wrote:So, Hector, you are suggesting we just up and forget 9/11?

And you applaud them for doing this?

I am truly speechless. I cannot think of sufficient wording for a reply to those statements you made.

We can't forget 9/11 any more than we can the Vietnam war, but we shouldn't use it to justify unconstitutional actions.

And I didn't applaud their actions, only their probable motives.

What I was saying is that it's time to move on.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-11 07:55pm

*rubs temples*

Surprise is not currently evident on my face.

Hameru, Hector, theski, UTvol: Please calm down and avoid turning this into a massive flamewar.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-03-11 07:55pm

OK, I've been to Whittier. It's kind of between Los Angeles and Orange County, and is a mostly suburban community. Used to be that not much (besides earthquakes) went on there.

Of course, I haven't had the occasion to go down there for a couple years, so I don't know what it's like now. But the ineptness of the Whittier PD is insane. You see someone burning an American flag that was on an UNOFFICIAL MEMORIAL, you don't just fucking walk on by.

Even the much-maligned LAPD isn't that fucking stupid...

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-03-11 10:37pm

jegs2 wrote:Gee, after seeing that article, I want to resign from the Army and join the peace movement....

The hours are pretty good , but they pay is terrible and members of the peace movement dont get dental. You should stay in the Army.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 10:40pm

No Flames baby, Hector my point was (maybe if you actually saw it in person, like I have and spoke with people who lost family and friends) it would make more real and less of a academic thing..

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-11 10:40pm

Crayz9000 wrote:OK, I've been to Whittier. It's kind of between Los Angeles and Orange County, and is a mostly suburban community. Used to be that not much (besides earthquakes) went on there.

Of course, I haven't had the occasion to go down there for a couple years, so I don't know what it's like now. But the ineptness of the Whittier PD is insane. You see someone burning an American flag that was on an UNOFFICIAL MEMORIAL, you don't just fucking walk on by.

Even the much-maligned LAPD isn't that fucking stupid...

No they just managed to be filmed while they beat a black guy

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-11 10:43pm

theski wrote:No Flames baby

Excuse me?

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-11 11:09pm

Hector...to continue my thoughts, there are many things in history that have not been forgotten, nor have people been able to move on from them. If it was an easy fix such as finding those who who did this and make them face prosecution, then I say lets do it. Unfortunately the people who caused 9/11 are still out there and growing, causing a real threat to our way of life. Just as I enjoy all of the freedoms this country has, such as having this website, everything as we know it could be changed forever. Our Country is the greatest in the world because of peace, freedom, etc. I'm not for putting any American's in danger, but one thing I can say for sure, Our government officials have families and lives of there own at stake, so my belief is, they would not want to put their loved ones in jeopardy either. I am an American and I feel I have to trust in what they know, we have left Irag alone for 12 years, enough time to produce, hide and help those who took 2500 lives on 9/11, which effected many, many lives in this Country. My comment about seeing the site of 9/11...you'll know what I mean if you saw the site.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2003-03-11 11:35pm

So, if i am murdering someone, the victim with the bullet in his brain needs to file a complaint in order for it to be a crime. Its my freedom of speach to randomly shoot someone!!!