Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

But, as I've pointed out, not by normal humans.

Sorry: bullshit. Sisko had no inkling of any "powers" whatsoever. Especially in the first season.

Well, I did not know you had to be aware of your biological processes before they would function. Amazing, some of the things I learn here.

[Lord Poe]

So you're saying that you don't need physical immunity to stand around in hard vacuum having a casual chat with Olivia d'Abo?

Fasle analogy. You're now comparing Sisko to Q. And sufficient tech CAN allow for the scenario above.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Sorry about the triple, my cable connection is getting fucked-up. Someone please delete the duplicates. Thanks.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So you're saying that you don't need physical immunity to stand around in hard vacuum having a casual chat with Olivia d'Abo?

Fasle analogy. You're now comparing Sisko to Q. And sufficient tech CAN allow for the scenario above.

You're still ignoring the fact that Amanda Rogers grew up totally ignorant of the Q and had their abilities anyway. She had no clue about any technology, and you didn't address the chameleon analogy.

[Eframepilot]

And it is impossible to believe that a being with such powers would leave himself vulnerable to simple physical assault.

Yet it happened. You lose. Again.

Again, he was punched in a boxing ring of his own creation. And showed no physical damage (pain is not damage, if indeed he felt that). Q's situation deliberately gave Sisko the chance to land a blow. It is silly to believe that a being of Q's capabilities would not be capable, or willing, to protect himself from damage of unexpected attacks. It's just silly. Q actually being hurt by Sisko may be the most obvious interpretation, but it is just plain silly.

If you want to prove that Q can be seriously injured or killed by a punch or a gun, you need examples of serious injury inflicted upon him. The Sisko incident has many interpretations that make MUCH more sense than yours.

[SirNitram]

So, let me ask you something, then, Nitram. You seem to be claiming that Sisko is a perfectly normal human, with the exception of what you call "minor sensing abilities" -- I'm guessing you mean clairvoyance or precognition. So as applied to the topic of this thread, then, do Han Solo or Chewbacca have these abilities? Because if these are just latent abilities Sisko has, he was probably using them in the ring against Q without knowing it. Could Solo's clairvoyance beat Q's? How about Chewbacca?

I quote from the FUQ: If you leapt to conclusions any faster, you could put on a cape and fight crime.

I didn't say Precog. Sensing. As in he can sense Prophets and Pah-Wraths. Does this magically translate to precog in the Trekkie Decoder Ring?

Whether it's technology or not doesn't matter. Whether it's illusion or not does not fucking matter. If a guy can create the illusion of turning a medical professional into a hound dog and making her believe she was a hound dog, he can sure as fuck mess with a spice smuggler and his pet Wookiee's heads enough to keep them from offing him. Get it? You still lose.

Moron. A human's bare fist hurt him, got through whatever mystic or technological defenses he had. A blaster, far more powerful, will rip through it.

[TheDarkling]

and would also point out that there is a slight scale differential between fooling 3 people and fooling 1000+.

What difference? Moriarity currently thinks he's traveling the cosmos, when in reality he's sitting on Barkley's desk.

Yes but Moriaty and his wife are two beings, if Q were using a holodeck he would need to provide holodeck for 1000+, not to mention that Morairty wasn't in on a holodeck but in active memory (no physical presence it was all computer based).

Yes so the Q can replicate Borg weapons exactly.

Possible, sure.

Fair enough then.

Wrong. The Borg already knew about such things thanks to Seven of Nine's parents.

Wrong. They chose Picard specifically and knew about his posting to the Enterprise-D so I suppose you conclude that there database not only held information about Picard (whom they chose above all others) but could also predict where he would be stationed several years later (in effect telling the future).

How do you know they simply didn't pick oh.....the CAPTAIN OF THE SHIP?? Jeez...

Did he announce himself to them? I don't have my transcripts handy at the moment but I was under the impression that they called him by name first.

The Alien Conundrum inserted a file or two not detailed sensor readings etc -

Oh bullshit. They not only rewrote most of the databases onboard, but disabled the rest, rewrote the crew roster, blanked the minds of all the humans AND Data THROUGH the Enterprise's defenses...

No they aided a file to the crew roster 1 file and they added a mission file and disabled the rest.

I'm not saying the Q couldn't do I was just listing what they would have to do compared to the far simpler idea that they actually flug the Ent-D X amount of LYs.

LOL!! And that's SIMPLER?

Yes it requires Q to have a technological ability we have seen many others display without him having to use holodecks, recreate borg weapons, etc etc - it just requires him to do one thing not several other things in a far more convoluted manner - you have no reason to assume its trickery and you have admitted as much so therefore you idle reasoning fails on this point.

Ah I see so the entire trial was made up by Q as was the resulting Q civil war, Q's mate, Q's son and basically all of the Voyager Q events (well I guess that gets rid of the only direct mention of the Q using technology - nice job).

Sure, why not? Q has already shown an affinity for playing with humans.
You're telling me you never dreamed up scenarios just as wacky? As Spock said, the more advanced the mind, the more need for play.

Ok fair enough while we are at it lets just say all of Trek is actually the mad ravings of some scifi writter from the 50's who looks a lot like Ben Sisko.
You can throw out wild theories but you obviously see that you have no reason to come up with these more complex theories other than your desire to lessen the Q's power.

Or we have Q not being able to shut down the holodeck - why not simply grab the Voyager crew or was Quinn holding onto them aswell?

Again, quite possible. Remember, even Picard couldn't stop a holoadventure by Wesley if the kid wrote his own override codes.

Yeah I wonder why Q never thought to do that, of course above you said the entire Quinn thing was some made up adventure by Q - please make up your mind.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So, let me ask you something, then, Nitram. You seem to be claiming that Sisko is a perfectly normal human, with the exception of what you call "minor sensing abilities" -- I'm guessing you mean clairvoyance or precognition. So as applied to the topic of this thread, then, do Han Solo or Chewbacca have these abilities? Because if these are just latent abilities Sisko has, he was probably using them in the ring against Q without knowing it. Could Solo's clairvoyance beat Q's? How about Chewbacca?

I quote from the FUQ: If you leapt to conclusions any faster, you could put on a cape and fight crime.

I didn't say Precog. Sensing. As in he can sense Prophets and Pah-Wraths. Does this magically translate to precog in the Trekkie Decoder Ring?

He can sense them? Oh, is that it? Well, you're sort of forgetting that his mum was a Prophet avatar, and he himself is now a resident of their continuum. This would seem to indicate much tighter connections than just "sensing".

And Prophets and Pah-Wraiths are what? Noncorp lifeforms. And the Q are what? Well, that we don't know for sure. You're arguing they're physical humans with advanced technology. I'm arguing they're noncorporeal lifeforms who manifest corporeal avatars in order to interact with humans. Either definition has support from the Sisko incident.

If Q is a corporeal human using advanced technology, he elected not to use it to protect himself in that boxing scenario and allowed Sisko the opportunity to actually hit him. He was only surprised because he didn't expect Sisko to actually do it.

If, on the other hand, Q is a noncorp who can create a physical avatar and interact with humans through it, Sisko's "sensitivity" to noncorps may have allowed him to guess the next move of Q's avatar, allowing him to land his shot.

Either interpretation makes sense -- but one contradicts continuity -- yours.

Whether it's technology or not doesn't matter. Whether it's illusion or not does not fucking matter. If a guy can create the illusion of turning a medical professional into a hound dog and making her believe she was a hound dog, he can sure as fuck mess with a spice smuggler and his pet Wookiee's heads enough to keep them from offing him. Get it? You still lose.

Moron. A human's bare fist hurt him, got through whatever mystic or technological defenses he had. A blaster, far more powerful, will rip through it.[/quote]

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I don't understand why these jackasses are still pursuing the idea that the Q use technology -- I've already destroyed that idea with the fact that a member of the continuum never exposed to any other member of the continuum or the continuum itself still possesses Q abilities. These abilities are obviously biological, not technological.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I don't understand why these jackasses are still pursuing the idea that the Q use technology -- I've already destroyed that idea with the fact that a member of the continuum never exposed to any other member of the continuum or the continuum itself still possesses Q abilities. These abilities are obviously biological, not technological.

There are, however, rather vexing questions yet to be answered.

1. If the abilities of the Q are all innate biological properties of the Q (and some of their abilities almost certainly are such), then how could Q grant Riker access to these abiities?

2. Amanda Rogers did not display any Q abilities until Q confronted her. Stress and shock can hardly have been the triggers for a biological response, since no human gets to that age without experiencing plenty of subjectively equivalent stress and shock and a search of her permanent record would certainly have shown the permanent disappearances of schoolyard bullies or clique leaders in brilliant flashes of light.

3. The Q patently do use tools to do things, such as kill other Q, and the bruised female Q seemed quite familiar with the concepts and operations of the standard technologies of the Star Trek galaxy as well as how to modify these to do things the Q normally do with a quick flourish.

4. The Q conveyances give every appearance of being extremely advanced technological systems.

5. Q's invulnerability seems somewhat undermined by his Encounter at Farpoint assault on the crewman who tried to pull a stun-setting phaser on him. Were Q invulnerable, it would have been more impressive to simply polish his fingernails on the Starfleet uniform while the phaser splashed harmlessly off his chest. Why would an invulnerable being undertake a vicious preemptive attack?

[SirNitram]

So, let me ask you something, then, Nitram. You seem to be claiming that Sisko is a perfectly normal human, with the exception of what you call "minor sensing abilities" -- I'm guessing you mean clairvoyance or precognition. So as applied to the topic of this thread, then, do Han Solo or Chewbacca have these abilities? Because if these are just latent abilities Sisko has, he was probably using them in the ring against Q without knowing it. Could Solo's clairvoyance beat Q's? How about Chewbacca?

I quote from the FUQ: If you leapt to conclusions any faster, you could put on a cape and fight crime.

I didn't say Precog. Sensing. As in he can sense Prophets and Pah-Wraths. Does this magically translate to precog in the Trekkie Decoder Ring?

He can sense them? Oh, is that it? Well, you're sort of forgetting that his mum was a Prophet avatar, and he himself is now a resident of their continuum. This would seem to indicate much tighter connections than just "sensing".

During the episode in question, he is not part of the Prophet continuum. He has, in fact, demonstrated no powers by this point. Back up your leaps of logic with quotes, you peice of shit.

And Prophets and Pah-Wraiths are what? Noncorp lifeforms. And the Q are what? Well, that we don't know for sure. You're arguing they're physical humans with advanced technology. I'm arguing they're noncorporeal lifeforms who manifest corporeal avatars in order to interact with humans. Either definition has support from the Sisko incident.

Evidence it works on anything but Prophets and Pah-Wraiths? None? I'm not surprised at all. Again, the Q are corporeal: They have bodies that can be touched, punched, seen, measured, and killed(Quinn, the Q-War)

If Q is a corporeal human using advanced technology, he elected not to use it to protect himself in that boxing scenario and allowed Sisko the opportunity to actually hit him. He was only surprised because he didn't expect Sisko to actually do it.

Wow, so he must be invincible despite being socked in the face. What a wonderful leap in logic. Sisko hurt him. Sisko punched through any defense he might have, and Sisko has demonstrated exactly NO powers for going through mystic fields or technological shields.

If, on the other hand, Q is a noncorp who can create a physical avatar and interact with humans through it, Sisko's "sensitivity" to noncorps may have allowed him to guess the next move of Q's avatar, allowing him to land his shot.

Or you're bullshitting. If the Q are noncorp, they would have no body that could be hit by a punch.

Either interpretation makes sense -- but one contradicts continuity -- yours.

Thank you for rounding out your post with a flat-out lie.

[TheDarkling]

1. If the abilities of the Q are all innate biological properties of the Q (and some of their abilities almost certainly are such), then how could Q grant Riker access to these abiities?

Easy - Q altered Riker to be a Q biologically (if he turns humans into dogs, his son into a single celled creature etc).

2. Amanda Rogers did not display any Q abilities until Q confronted her. Stress and shock can hardly have been the triggers for a biological response, since no human gets to that age without experiencing plenty of subjectively equivalent stress and shock and a search of her permanent record would certainly have shown the permanent disappearances of schoolyard bullies or clique leaders in brilliant flashes of light.

The powers began to manifest 6 months before she met Q, as to why her powers didn't manifest till then I will go with the X-Men solution (powers often manifest at puberty or there about) afterall if it is a biological power then it is easy to explain it's onset during a point during standard growth.

3. The Q patently do use tools to do things, such as kill other Q, and the bruised female Q seemed quite familiar with the concepts and operations of the standard technologies of the Star Trek galaxy as well as how to modify these to do things the Q normally do with a quick flourish.

Yeah well after a billion years of bordom I'm sure tech manuals are a great read

5. Q's invulnerability seems somewhat undermined by his Encounter at Farpoint assault on the crewman who tried to pull a stun-setting phaser on him. Were Q invulnerable, it would have been more impressive to simply polish his fingernails on the Starfleet uniform while the phaser splashed harmlessly off his chest. Why would an invulnerable being undertake a vicious preemptive attack?

That is a matter of interpretation, what is more impressive taking a stun shot (something a lot of aliens can do) or freezing some guy with a click of the fingers.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I don't understand why these jackasses are still pursuing the idea that the Q use technology -- I've already destroyed that idea with the fact that a member of the continuum never exposed to any other member of the continuum or the continuum itself still possesses Q abilities. These abilities are obviously biological, not technological.

There are, however, rather vexing questions yet to be answered.

1. If the abilities of the Q are all innate biological properties of the Q (and some of their abilities almost certainly are such), then how could Q grant Riker access to these abiities?

Answered in last post.

2. Amanda Rogers did not display any Q abilities until Q confronted her. Stress and shock can hardly have been the triggers for a biological response, since no human gets to that age without experiencing plenty of subjectively equivalent stress and shock and a search of her permanent record would certainly have shown the permanent disappearances of schoolyard bullies or clique leaders in brilliant flashes of light.

Also answered above... almost. The previous interpretation is conflicted by the example of Q's son. Whereas Q's son was raised as a Q, Amanda Rodgers was raised human. Humans aren't capable of the things Q are capable of -- it may be that Amanda Rogers didn't manifest Q abilities until later in life because she was conditioned from birth to ignore those abilities because they are abnormal. Even in the episode itself we see her struggling with this conflict.

3. The Q patently do use tools to do things, such as kill other Q, and the bruised female Q seemed quite familiar with the concepts and operations of the standard technologies of the Star Trek galaxy as well as how to modify these to do things the Q normally do with a quick flourish.

It's not hard to imagine that the Lady Q knew how to use low-tech Federation devices because of two facts 1: It isn't all that sophisticated to her, and 2: she anticipated the fact that she may eventually have to deal with humans in their environment, and so did her homework.

4. The Q conveyances give every appearance of being extremely advanced technological systems.

Actually, the Q "teleportation" effect is exactly identical to the Enterprise-D Warp Flash. I'm unsure how this is relevant except as an amusing triviality.

5. Q's invulnerability seems somewhat undermined by his Encounter at Farpoint assault on the crewman who tried to pull a stun-setting phaser on him. Were Q invulnerable, it would have been more impressive to simply polish his fingernails on the Starfleet uniform while the phaser splashed harmlessly off his chest. Why would an invulnerable being undertake a vicious preemptive attack?

I can think of two reasons off the top of my head why Q would take action against someone who tries to threaten him. First, he was a somewhat vicious individual early on, though in an understated way. Second, he was "introducing himself" and establishing his domination over the humans, in essence putting them in their place.

[seanrobertson]

Exactly how would you know, Sean? There has been several TNG episodes where the main characters, who are used to holodecks on a daily basis, had absolutely no idea that they were on a holodeck.

Oh, I know...see below.

I don't think the Borg encounter at J-25 occured in a version of a holodeck, so Q can accelerate a starship to thousands of times its "true" maximum velocity.

Why would this be any trouble? Beam the entire crew into a holodeck and play out the entire little scenario, and while they're gone, carve out a section of the actual ship. Simple.

That's plausible. But what about the Borg? They showed up specifically looking for the Enterprise about a year later (or thereabouts--you know I mean in "BOBW"). How could both they and the E-D fallen for the same trap if they were thousands of light years apart, to the point that the Borg took the holographic bait and sent a real ship to assimilate Earth? Two different Q, 5,000 ly apart, snagged the E-D and cube, networked their illusion, then let the two go?

Sean, the entire scenario could have been Q's version of a Dexter Hill adventure. Beam the crew to the holodeck and have at it.

Perhaps, but remember that these things weren't done for the benefit of pulling the VGR crew's leg; it was all designed to hide from another Q.
I suppose that, if we subscribed to the Q = pure fakers idea, we could rationalize this by saying that, even within a holodeck, participants can change the parameters as they go...hence, Quinn could hide from Q by constantly changing the program.

Then again, these holodecks would be based in Q technology. Why wouldn't Q--and all of the other Q for that matter--just pull the plug? Why chase this guy around when you could just cut the power?

We don't know that for certain, especially if they are surprised by a fist to the face.

Which I tend to explain as Q enjoying his "ruse." A fist or even blaster shouldn't hurt the "true Q" (sorry, bad pun I know) since photorps didn't hurt him in the first episode. Since I've never seen the Q utilize spacecraft since then, I'm a bit leery to conclude that E-ball was Q flying around in his equivalent of a Runabout.

He has appeared as such, yes, but you should divorce the idea that Q is limited to the form he takes on the Enterprise, DS9, or VGR. That can't be the case; otherwise, he wouldn't last a second in the center of a comet, couldn't walk around in a vacuum, etc.

Again, this wouldn't be the case following my speculation above.
[/quote]

You're right in that it's possible Q put on a show for sweet little Amanda Rogers, though you'd think she, who had "Q powers," should be able to tell such was an illusion.

But I definitely don't think the Quinn-in-a-comet was a trick; he wasn't out to deceive VGR in any real way. If anything, he was the most candid Q we've seen, the first to admit that the Continuum isn't omnipotent.

And I know we can agree that the other Q imprisoned "Quinn" in that comet, or what appeared to be a comet. But what reason do we have to believe that comet wasn't so? VGR's sensors thought it was a comet; it looked like a comet. We need tangible proof that Q are strictly limited to a corporeal existence before we can say, with some validity, that Quinn's tenure inside the thing invalidates the comet's appearance; i.e., "It can't be a comet because Quinn couldn't survive inside a real comet." Until we have a bonafine example of their physical mortality, that remains somewhat circular.

When he was a ball of energy, how do we know he wasn't in an advanced Q craft? AGAIN, how do we know the entire scenario didn't take place on a Q holodeck?

We don't, but we can't say, "Because we do not know X, we must assume X to be true."

The ball of energy/Q ship idea is interesting, but it's also without precedent. If he's just a faker, of course, his ship could be cloaked and we'd simply never see it...but as I said, absence of evidence does a quick appeal to ignorance make.

[Zoink]

That's plausible. But what about the Borg? They showed up specifically looking for the Enterprise about a year later (or thereabouts--you know I mean in "BOBW").

Didn't the Enterprise intercept the cube, at which point the cube captured its leader (Picard) for tactical information on the federation?

[TheDarkling]

That's plausible. But what about the Borg? They showed up specifically looking for the Enterprise about a year later (or thereabouts--you know I mean in "BOBW").

Didn't the Enterprise intercept the cube, at which point the cube captured its leader (Picard) for tactical information on the federation?

They know Picard is in command of the Enterprise already (they say his name before he tells them it) and also hail him by name again before he has told them it, they also know that the Enterprise isn't upto fighting the cube but when Picard states they have improved since their last meeting they scan the shields.

[seanrobertson]

That's plausible. But what about the Borg? They showed up specifically looking for the Enterprise about a year later (or thereabouts--you know I mean in "BOBW").

Didn't the Enterprise intercept the cube, at which point the cube captured its leader (Picard) for tactical information on the federation?

They know Picard is in command of the Enterprise already (they say his name before he tells them it) and also hail him by name again before he has told them it, they also know that the Enterprise isn't upto fighting the cube but when Picard states they have improved since their last meeting they scan the shields.

Right. They ask for Picard by name and rank/commission ("Captain Jean Luc Picard of NCC 1701-D: you command the strongest ship in the Federation fleet. You speak for your people") in "Best of Both Worlds."

The simplest explanation here is that the Borg had previously encountered Picard and the E-D. That encounter first really sparked geniune interest in the Federation, particularly Earth.

Further, it is also easiest to conclude Q actually did have the power to greatly accelerate the E-D to system J25 such that the encounter would occur in the first place.

Ockham's dictates that we should accept Q has the ability to move starships around at a rate similar to Borg high "transwarp" velocities.
That hardly makes "him" invincible by any means...it doesn't even demonstrate that his physical form might not be threatened by a blaster BUT, it is the simplest explanation of what we observe.

On the other side of the coin, to assume the Borg and E-D were both simultaneously engaged in a simulation of the J25 scenario complicates things unnecessarily. It is also rooted in invalid reasoning (begging the question): Q can't accelerate a starship to high FTL because he cannot do such things--he's only a trickster.

Many of Q's tricks can be explained away as just that, smoke and mirrors. The run-in with the Borg didn't seem to be an illusion given the later events of seasons 3 and 4.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

If, on the other hand, Q is a noncorp who can create a physical avatar and interact with humans through it, Sisko's "sensitivity" to noncorps may have allowed him to guess the next move of Q's avatar, allowing him to land his shot.

Or you're bullshitting. If the Q are noncorp, they would have no body that could be hit by a punch.

Nitram, did you even understand what I said above? I am stating that the Q are noncorp AND they can produce physical manifestations of their personalities through which to interact with corporeal lifeforms.

Now certainly you can enlighten me as to why this explanation isn't plausible, yes?

[Stephie3349]

Q appears in the main hold of the Millennium Falcon.
Q: "My dear Captain Solo, how DO you do?

SOLO: (sitting at the tech station) "What the...."

CHEWBACCA: "RWOOOARRR!"

Q turns to Chewbacca

Q: "Ah, I forgot you furry companion! Shouldn't he be on a leash?"

Q snaps his fingers, and a pink leash and muzzle appear on Chewie. Q turns back to Solo.

Q: "Now then-"

Solo lands a haymaker square on Q's jaw, sending the near omnipotent being smacking into bulkhead, and finally to the deck.

Which is shown as possible in the canon DS9 episode "Q-Less"

Q: "Hey! You hit-"

Q is cut off by Chewbacca, who grabs the alleged omnipotent being and bashes his head into the opposing corridor walls, then rips his arms off. Solo sets his blaster to vaporize, and destroys what's left of Q.

Which is shown as possible in the canon TNG episode, "Q-Who?" where Guinan physically threatens Q, who backs off and is apprehensive.

SOLO: "Chewie, get the aerosol. Goddamned space pansies..."

like that would ever happen. the only reason guinan could threaten him is because she is el aurian. el aurians have complete mental control but she still couldnt have killed Q. Hell, Q could kill the emporer.

[seanrobertson]

like that would ever happen. the only reason guinan could threaten him is because she is el aurian. el aurians have complete mental control but she still couldnt have killed Q. Hell, Q could kill the emporer.

I tend to agree on that last count. As almost god-like is Palpatine is, Q oughta be able to take him with ease. (EU experts like my friend Connor and Publius, forgive me if I've overlooked something from the relevant official texts...)

But, I dunno why Guinan could threaten Q. I noted how weird I thought that was many years ago on RAST. Q mentioned that she was an imp, not what she appears to be.

I can believe that Guinan has some kind of "spirit" or somesuch similar nonsense that is "transcendental" in the context of ordinary humanoids; her sense of alterations in space-time is pretty keen, after all. I can even forgive the fact that her people were all but destroyed by the Borg Collective, not incapable but unwilling to stop their own assimilation. (They could be pacificists, similar to the Organians...only instead of simply allowing the Klingons and UFP to occupy their homeworld, the EAs let the Borg assimilate or wipe them out.)

BUT...if El Aurians are so special, then how come Soran needed a starship and trilithium technology to redirect the path of the "Nexus ribbon"? He was not a pacifist; therefore, he would've used the full extent of his abilities to achieve his goal.

Consequently, we know Soran can't travel FTL by himself. He can't move spatial phenomena with his will alone. He appeared to have some insight into what Picard was thinking--anyone properly trained probably could've read Picard's face like a book, but the "time is the fire in which we burn" comment indicates something more than normal observation at work--BUT he could not get Geordi to reveal things about the E-D that Geordi didn't want to say. Indeed, Soran resorted to torturing LaForge like a Cardassian would.

Soran also needed a disruptor to kill Picard and Kirk. Fists alone saw him get his ass kicked by Kirk. So he has no ability to project energy bolts or "Force choke" people a'la Sith Lords.

It would therefore appear that El Aurians are marginally telepathic, able to sneak a peek into someone's mind whilst their target is already in significant emotional duress. They're not powerful enough teeps to extract information out of strong-minded people. They also seem "bound" to a mortal, if long-lived, body. Destroy the body, you destroy their "essence" (sorry to keep using these silly philosophic terms...I'm only using them to try and rationalize why an El-Aur. could threaten Q with a gesture). Put another way, they ARE limited to corporeal bodies.

What gives them the ability to give Q pause puzzles me. Since they are largely what they appear to be at the very least, Q could simply teleport Guinan away the way he did Quark on DS9 (whether or not one subscribes to the idea that Q himself is all but a regular guy who uses technology to appear god-like).

The only explanation I can think of is that Guinan isn't fully El-Aurian, or isn't of that race at all. She might be a poser like Kevin Uxbridge.

Any thoughts? I don't much like the idea of guessing Guinan wasn't who she said she was, Q's remarks notwithstanding. He could well have been telling the truth...who knows. But I think the main problem with all of this is that Guinan, Q, and the Borg were intended to be powerful allegorical figures in TNG's 2nd season, with the Borg as the "devil" and so on, as some of the writers have explained in Trek publications I've read. Once that was largely scrapped, the connection between all three was largely lost.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The Guinan factor has already been explained, although the explanation itself raises questions. The explanation (for those of you who don't wish to go to the trouble of backtracking) is simple:

Guinan has an echo (basically a backup copy of herself) in the Nexus. This is what alerts her to alterations in the timeline; her physical experience and "echo" are put into conflict. Her echo may also be a trump card with Q -- Q can manipulate space and time, but in her own way, Guinan is not affected by such alterations. Q is wary of Guinan because she, among the hundreds of billions of lifeforms he's encountered, is the first individual he can't fuck with.

[seanrobertson]

The Guinan factor has already been explained, although the explanation itself raises questions. The explanation (for those of you who don't wish to go to the trouble of backtracking) is simple:

Guinan has an echo (basically a backup copy of herself) in the Nexus. This is what alerts her to alterations in the timeline; her physical experience and "echo" are put into conflict.

I see, but I don't recall that the two had any sort of interaction...that she knew Picard while inside the Nexus alone doesn't prove anything, given that she first met Picard in the late 1800s.

Her echo may also be a trump card with Q -- Q can manipulate space and time, but in her own way, Guinan is not affected by such alterations. Q is wary of Guinan because she, among the hundreds of billions of lifeforms he's encountered, is the first individual he can't fuck with.

In that case, why couldn't he simply wipe the Nexus from existence, and thus eliminate this "threat"? The Krenim could've done that for Christ's sake.

It's a good, ambitious explanation--don't get me wrong Raoul. But I don't get how we can go from "can't be fucked with because she has an echo in a spatial/temporal deal" to "She's an Imp, not what she appears to be. ...Guinan? Is that your name now?" Or all of the raised hands and "magic gestures" both characters took.

That seems to require rather more power we'd need to ascribe to Guinan if one was to suppose Q was indeed a kind of superbeing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The Guinan factor has already been explained, although the explanation itself raises questions. The explanation (for those of you who don't wish to go to the trouble of backtracking) is simple:

Guinan has an echo (basically a backup copy of herself) in the Nexus. This is what alerts her to alterations in the timeline; her physical experience and "echo" are put into conflict.

I see, but I don't recall that the two had any sort of interaction...that she knew Picard while inside the Nexus alone doesn't prove anything, given that she first met Picard in the late 1800s.

I'm not sure how Picard is relevant. El-Aurians are indeed a long-lived species, but that doesn't apply to my explanation, as Guinan wasn't trapped in the Nexus until the late 23rd Century.

Her echo may also be a trump card with Q -- Q can manipulate space and time, but in her own way, Guinan is not affected by such alterations. Q is wary of Guinan because she, among the hundreds of billions of lifeforms he's encountered, is the first individual he can't fuck with.

In that case, why couldn't he simply wipe the Nexus from existence, and thus eliminate this "threat"? The Krenim could've done that for Christ's sake.[/quote]

As I said, it may be that when a Q assumes a physical avatar, the power of that Q is blunted somehow. He didn't even expect to see Guinan, and that is puzzling, but it can be ascribed to the limitations of the information storage capacity of the physical avatar.

It's a good, ambitious explanation--don't get me wrong Raoul. But I don't get how we can go from "can't be fucked with because she has an echo in a spatial/temporal deal" to "She's an Imp, not what she appears to be. ...Guinan? Is that your name now?" Or all of the raised hands and "magic gestures" both characters took.

Q has displayed a tendency to adopt religious/mythological metaphors (both verbal and physical) more than once -- this may be another of the same, or it is possible that the El-Aurians are even further along the path of evolution that concerns the Q in humans. There is definitely a story here, and I could postulate that that story is as follows:

The Continuum sent Q to try the El-Aurians just as he did with humans -- but unlike humans, the El-Aurians passed the test in a way that satisfied the Continuum rather than provoking their curiosity. All except for the Trickster, whose interactions with Guinan were hostile (but maybe quite the opposite at first... ) The El-Aurians may be developing latent Q-ish abilities of varying degrees of strength from individual to individual, like ESP in humans. This explains the "not what you think" comment, the hostility (common to ex-lovers) and the Q-like gesturing on the part of both would-be combatants.

That seems to require rather more power we'd need to ascribe to Guinan if one was to suppose Q was indeed a kind of superbeing.

Unless, as I've just described, one already is, and the other is of a species farther along the way to becoming so than we humans.

[Darth Negation]

Wouldn't it be simpler to think that Guinan has some hold over Q? Like a typical blackmail situation. "You make me disappear, and you playing Billards with those inhabited planets and black hole pockets will be mysteriously found posted on the Q Continuuinnum (etc) message board."

That would be more plausible, esp. if she could be under some kind of Witness Protection Act against Q. Hey, you never know.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

How could Guinan possibly blackmail Q? I'm sorry, but that doesn't even make sense. How is it that Guinan would know more about Q's doings than the Q Continuum, who have actually been keeping an eye on him?