Close to verdict for Pussy Riot blasphemy - in Germany

[Spoonist]

So on August 19, 3 germans did a protest with a similar modus operandi as Pussy Riot in Köln.
They get arrested for disturbing the freedom of religious expression - ie the congregation and mass.


https://dgap.org/en/ip-journal/topics/p ... uf-deutsch

So what do you think?
Are the two similar? Are germany being hypocrits condemning Russia but ignoring this case at home?
Why? Why not?

Discuss...

[Aaron MkII]

Well it doesn't look like their being charged with blasphemy but essentially being assholes by interrupting a congregations service. Russia's case also runs deeper right? Like the charge was essentially a cover for criticizing Tsar Putin?

I mean I find the wording of the offence odd but as a Canuck I don't think we have a similar law. Mischief maybe?

[Thanas]

Freedom of religion does not give you freedom of behaving like a dick, storm into a church while there is a mass ongoing and disturbing the peace by shouting over the celebrants. It is akin as if you have a street party and then a bunch of hooligans show up trying to piss everyone of - this is what the law tries to stop. They have the right to protest and can do so, but not during the few hours when there is religious service.

As to what they will get, there is no way any of them will ever see prison. Probably a fine, as the article says.

[salm]

One big problem I see here is that there´s a special law for disurpting religious gatherings. This type of disruption is also punished harsher than disruption of other things if I understand correctly.

Normal disruption (erregung öffentlichen ärgernisses) can only be punished with up to one year.

<edit>And with "big problem" I mean "very unfair law which needs to be thrown out as quickly as possible."</edit>

[whackadoodle]

Well it doesn't look like their being charged with blasphemy but essentially being assholes by interrupting a congregations service. Russia's case also runs deeper right? Like the charge was essentially a cover for criticizing Tsar Putin?

I mean I find the wording of the offence odd but as a Canuck I don't think we have a similar law. Mischief maybe?

Assuming that the church is a privately-owned property, then once it was made clear that they weren't wanted, the protesters would be guilty of trespassing, for starters.

[Aaron MkII]

Ahh, of course!

[K. A. Pital]

Call me when they get two years in prison.

[Skgoa]

One big problem I see here is that there´s a special law for disurpting religious gatherings. This type of disruption is also punished harsher than disruption of other things if I understand correctly.

Normal disruption (erregung öffentlichen ärgernisses) can only be punished with up to one year.

<edit>And with "big problem" I mean "very unfair law which needs to be thrown out as quickly as possible."</edit>

That probably has something to do with a) religious minorities having a higher chance of being attacked and/or b) religion being serious business to many people.

[PeZook]

Call me when they get two years in prison.

Wasn't it hard labor?

[K. A. Pital]

Call me when they get two years in prison.

Wasn't it hard labor?

In prison. A penal colony is a type of prison, is it not?

[salm]

One big problem I see here is that there´s a special law for disurpting religious gatherings. This type of disruption is also punished harsher than disruption of other things if I understand correctly.

Normal disruption (erregung öffentlichen ärgernisses) can only be punished with up to one year.

<edit>And with "big problem" I mean "very unfair law which needs to be thrown out as quickly as possible."</edit>

That probably has something to do with a) religious minorities having a higher chance of being attacked and/or b) religion being serious business to many people.

So do you think it´s a fair law?

[Thanas]

I think it is, considering the last thing we want in Germany are religious riots and that you have to be a colossal idiot to disrupt services as well.

However, do note the charge only sticks if you highly disrespect them iirc and so far no people have been convicted of that due to the high requirements of the charge.

[Irbis]

Still, what's the point of even having these laws? Someone is disrupting mass, slap trespassing and disturbing public order on him, done. Having laws protecting religion is inherently warping justice because some religions, atheists and agnostics are not protected by these, especially when someone religious insults them just as much with something that can't be defended against because it's not strictly "religious attack".

Maybe I'm just bitter seeing how various assholes here abuse so called "religion protecting" laws in my country, but I'd immediately struck every single law. no matter how minor, aimed for placating worshippers of invisible pink unicorn, if simply to make everyone equal. If something is real issue, just make it into general, secular law, done.

[Thanas]

Still, what's the point of even having these laws? Someone is disrupting mass, slap trespassing and disturbing public order on him, done.

To stop religious unrest. Trespassing, disturbing public orders are fines usually. Under that idea Nazis could storm a synagogue and get away with fines.

[salm]

Still, what's the point of even having these laws? Someone is disrupting mass, slap trespassing and disturbing public order on him, done.

To stop religious unrest. Trespassing, disturbing public orders are fines usually. Under that idea Nazis could storm a synagogue and get away with fines.

Why? Religious disruption is either a fine or a prison sentence of three years. Normal disruption is also either a fine or a prison sentence. Only that the latter has a shorter max sentence.

[Thanas]

Normal disruption is also either a fine or a prison sentence. Only that the latter has a shorter max sentence.

Yeah but there is no way that will result in prion sentences because German courts don't hand down max sentences. With the higher max sentence the probability increases.

I guess in the end it comes down to a judgement call if you think places of worship are different from your garden or not.

[salm]

Yeah, probably.

The Nazi hordes invading a synagoge i guess would be major trespassing (schwerer Hausfriedensbruch) by the way, which can result in a max sentence of two years.

Personally I think that is sufficient and a special law for religious trespassing is not required.

[Thanas]

Yeah, probably.

The Nazi hordes invading a synagoge i guess would be major trespassing (schwerer Hausfriedensbruch) by the way, which can result in a max sentence of two years.

No it would not because that would require the persecutors to prove intent to commit violence. If all they do is shout it would not count.