French Mohammed cartooons

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Metahive
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Metahive »

Jub wrote:Except that the cartoonist is a world away and the extremists get pissed off and attack people that aren't involved. Your telling me that these people aren't smart enough to know the difference, or are that they are simply too upset to care. I'm saying that if they are that crazy, and even the rather moderate are nuts by most standards, we're not going to be able to fix things.

When these people can't tell the difference between a small group of people saying something hurtful and the diplomats that are officially sent there to try and help, how can we appease them? When they call for us to strike freedom of speech from our laws, how can we appease them? When any private citizen can whip a region into a frenzy with the stroke of a pen, how can we appease them
Yes, keep dumping on the man lying in a puddle of his own blood, keep calling his mother a whore and his children a pack of rats. It'll surely make him more appreciative of your privilege. How could he possibly ever take this the wrong way? Especially when the thugs who beat him to the ground were the very people you chose to lead your nations?

Still not getting the whole context and consequences thing, are you? The West has been fucking up the Middle East since 200 years and shows no sign of changing his ways. There's a lot of pent-up anger there and for a good reason. Just tell me, what's the point in insulting them further? Please answer this question with something else but "because we can".

O, and BTW, stop acting as if the West has really outgrown this. When Middle Easterners annoy us, we either murder them dead or ship them over to shady prisons to have them tortured and incarcerated for life. Sometimes we do that even if they didn't annoy us but dared to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You complain that they harass and kill innocent Westerners? When we ourselves are applying a pretty broad strokes approach to which Middle-Easterner we can kill or maim, why the fuck should they? So once again, WE ARE NOT LEADING BY EXAMPLE HERE! Drop that BS, will ya'? It just reeks of hypocrisy, ignorance and snotty privilege.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Jub wrote: The thing is, when you insult the west people don't die.
Unless you are Anwar Al Alwaki of course. When you guys aren't too busy trying to stop people "insulting the West", you know like France with the banning of protests to the film and all that.
We might call you out for it and tell you to stop, but we won't be attacking embassies.
I think the West has done more than "call people out on it." See the wiki leaks example where they have tried to shut down sources of funding for that organisation. Is it somehow better because the Western governments have the resources to attempt to attack its enemies in such a manner, while poor Muslims can only riot?
When the Middle East can do that maybe we can start taking them seriously.
When "the West" (I assume you mean North American countries and Western European countries and countries of the Anglosphere) stop being hypocrites, other nations who you criticise might take you more seriously, and be more willing to look at the fine example you set.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by wautd »

mr friendly guy wrote:you know like France with the banning of protests to the film and all that.
To be fair, just before the ban there were already riots close by (Belgium), so allowing a protest then to the american embassy was like bringing a fire to a powder keg. Best to allow the hotheads chill out first to prevent any more damage. Why would they need to protest against the american embassy anyway? It's not like they had anything to do with a crappy, privately made movie.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Metahive wrote:Yes, keep dumping on the man lying in a puddle of his own blood, keep calling his mother a whore and his children a pack of rats. It'll surely make him more appreciative of your privilege. How could he possibly ever take this the wrong way? Especially when the thugs who beat him to the ground were the very people you chose to lead your nations?

Still not getting the whole context and consequences thing, are you? The West has been fucking up the Middle East since 200 years and shows no sign of changing his ways. There's a lot of pent-up anger there and for a good reason. Just tell me, what's the point in insulting them further? Please answer this question with something else but "because we can".

O, and BTW, stop acting as if the West has really outgrown this. When Middle Easterners annoy us, we either murder them dead or ship them over to shady prisons to have them tortured and incarcerated for life. Sometimes we do that even if they didn't annoy us but dared to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You complain that they harass and kill innocent Westerners? When we ourselves are applying a pretty broad strokes approach to which Middle-Easterner we can kill or maim, why the fuck should they? So once again, WE ARE NOT LEADING BY EXAMPLE HERE! Drop that BS, will ya'? It just reeks of hypocrisy, ignorance and snotty privilege.
They were always such saints before we started messing with them. Not to mention the fact that they had ahead start on nation building compared to the rest of the world. I can't feel sorry that they lost their lead and started marching backwards from there. And it isn't as if they wouldn't do the same thing back if they had the power.

Why shouldn't we exercise our rights? Why should we let them dictate anything to us? Why should we give up our freedoms due to their sensibilities? Why should we give a shit what these poor ignorant fucks think about anything?

The west has outgrown it more than some places, if not as much as I might like. Also, much of the west is rather ashamed of America's antics and only goes only grudgingly with her plans if they go along with them at all. You may have noticed how often the US is admonished by the rest of the west. Where are the governments of the middle east speaking out and making even token gestures to keep their neighbors sane?
mr friendly guy wrote:Unless you are Anwar Al Alwaki of course. When you guys aren't too busy trying to stop people "insulting the West", you know like France with the banning of protests to the film and all that.
I don't know enough about him to know if his death was called for or not, but if he was evenly loosely affiliated with AQ he sowed the seeds of his own death. One can't be writing propaganda for the enemy and expect that he should be off limits. If they think acting covertly and plotting is their game alone then they're badly misinformed.
I think the West has done more than "call people out on it." See the wiki leaks example where they have tried to shut down sources of funding for that organisation. Is it somehow better because the Western governments have the resources to attempt to attack its enemies in such a manner, while poor Muslims can only riot?/

Shutting down funding keeps nobody from speaking as they wish. Also yes, it is better to do it with influence and money than with riots and violence. Anybody who thinks otherwise is insane.
When "the West" (I assume you mean North American countries and Western European countries and countries of the Anglosphere) stop being hypocrites, other nations who you criticise might take you more seriously, and be more willing to look at the fine example you set.
If they want to play that game they should know who holds the bigger stick and most of the cards. They might also want to realize that our injustices tend to be a slight bit smaller than theirs.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by mr friendly guy »

Jub wrote:
I don't know enough about him to know if his death was called for or not, but if he was evenly loosely affiliated with AQ he sowed the seeds of his own death. One can't be writing propaganda for the enemy and expect that he should be off limits. If they think acting covertly and plotting is their game alone then they're badly misinformed.
In other words free speech is ok for you guys to do it, but when someone says something you don't like, they deserve death. Thanks for playing and highlighting my point. The freedom of speech the West talks about belies its hypocrisy. Thus its harder for the other people to look and go, isn't free speech grand, when the advocates of it don't even behave like that. In fact, one might suspect free speech is just a mask to gain some geopolitical advantage. At least the West behaves consistently in that.
Shutting down funding keeps nobody from speaking as they wish.
Are you on drugs or just being a dishonest turd? If shutting down funding doesn't limit wikileaks talking, why then is the US trying to do so. :roll:

Are you fucking insane that you don't realise that to get your message out, you need... drum roll here... money. Thats why politicians spend shit loads of $$$$ on election campaigns. You are being dishonest if you don't think this limits a person's ability to get their message out. What's next? Jailing a dissident doesn't keep them from speaking as they wish. They can say what they like in jail. The message just won't get out. :roll:
Also yes, it is better to do it with influence and money than with riots and violence. Anybody who thinks otherwise is insane.
No shit its better to do it this way. However once you do it "this way" you can't at the same time say you advocate free speech.
If they want to play that game they should know who holds the bigger stick and most of the cards. They might also want to realize that our injustices tend to be a slight bit smaller than theirs.
Ah, so might makes right, since you hold the bigger stick and most of the cards. Why did you waste time talking about free speech when all you can say is, well might makes right, so there. It would have saved your opponent's time explaining the hypocrisy of the West. Once again for people, when you say freedom of speech is great, but you don't follow your own dictates, then even an uneducated person is going to figure out... maybe freedom of speech is not the reason the West is doing what it has done.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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wautd wrote:Why would they need to protest against the american embassy anyway? It's not like they had anything to do with a crappy, privately made movie.
Because they viewed the movie as an extension of the American society? Do you honestly failed to understand this?

In their eyes, the tolerance (or encouragement) of such mockery is simply another form of imperialism at work. America and the western world have already taken everything that is of value in their lands, and now they are even trying to take away the thing they cherish most, their religion.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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mr friendly guy wrote:
Jub wrote:I don't know enough about him to know if his death was called for or not, but if he was evenly loosely affiliated with AQ he sowed the seeds of his own death. One can't be writing propaganda for the enemy and expect that he should be off limits. If they think acting covertly and plotting is their game alone then they're badly misinformed.
In other words free speech is ok for you guys to do it, but when someone says something you don't like, they deserve death. Thanks for playing and highlighting my point. The freedom of speech the West talks about belies its hypocrisy. Thus its harder for the other people to look and go, isn't free speech grand, when the advocates of it don't even behave like that. In fact, one might suspect free speech is just a mask to gain some geopolitical advantage. At least the West behaves consistently in that.
If you're helping recruit for a known terrorist organization that has declared war on a major nation, how safe can you expect to be?
Shutting down funding keeps nobody from speaking as they wish.
Are you on drugs or just being a dishonest turd? If shutting down funding doesn't limit wikileaks talking, why then is the US trying to do so. :roll:

Are you fucking insane that you don't realise that to get your message out, you need... drum roll here... money. Thats why politicians spend shit loads of $$$$ on election campaigns. You are being dishonest if you don't think this limits a person's ability to get their message out. What's next? Jailing a dissident doesn't keep them from speaking as they wish. They can say what they like in jail. The message just won't get out. :roll:
You don't need a massive amount of cash to get a message out these days. You could run something like wikileaks from a server farm that you own and then all you would need to do is pay hosting fees. You could do that on a few hundred a month if you had a few people maintaining it.
Also yes, it is better to do it with influence and money than with riots and violence. Anybody who thinks otherwise is insane.
No shit its better to do it this way. However once you do it "this way" you can't at the same time say you advocate free speech.
I said it was better, not perfect.
If they want to play that game they should know who holds the bigger stick and most of the cards. They might also want to realize that our injustices tend to be a slight bit smaller than theirs.
Ah, so might makes right, since you hold the bigger stick and most of the cards. Why did you waste time talking about free speech when all you can say is, well might makes right, so there. It would have saved your opponent's time explaining the hypocrisy of the West. Once again for people, when you say freedom of speech is great, but you don't follow your own dictates, then even an uneducated person is going to figure out... maybe freedom of speech is not the reason the West is doing what it has done.
Who threw the first punch in this latest conflict? Which nations sponsored the people who flew planes into buildings with the express intent of killing civilians? When you're acting like a criminal your rights tend to be suspended.
ray245 wrote:
wautd wrote:Why would they need to protest against the american embassy anyway? It's not like they had anything to do with a crappy, privately made movie.
Because they viewed the movie as an extension of the American society? Do you honestly failed to understand this?

In their eyes, the tolerance (or encouragement) of such mockery is simply another form of imperialism at work. America and the western world have already taken everything that is of value in their lands, and now they are even trying to take away the thing they cherish most, their religion.
This proves that they've got a pretty narrow vision and lack of context. Their religion isn't worth the paper it is written on, no religion is. Am I inciting something by saying that?

Edit: Also, nobody has yet answered what they would do to solve this situation. Even if the West did stop poking the Middle East do you think they would stop hating us? If we left their nations free of our soldiers do you think they would stop attacking us? How long do we leave them alone? Does leaving them alone include not sending them aid and ceasing investment into them?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Jub wrote: This proves that they've got a pretty narrow vision and lack of context. Their religion isn't worth the paper it is written on, no religion is. Am I inciting something by saying that?
So fucking what? Good luck trying to convince them to share your view.
Also, nobody has yet answered what they would do to solve this situation. Even if the West did stop poking the Middle East do you think they would stop hating us? If we left their nations free of our soldiers do you think they would stop attacking us? How long do we leave them alone? Does leaving them alone include not sending them aid and ceasing investment into them?
Why not? Their hatred of foreign powers is largely directed towards the western world because the western nations were the ones that generally fucked them over again and again.

Notice how nations that do not play an active role in middle eastern politics today are not viewed as targets in the eyes of Islamic extremist? Why haven't they attack Japan for having freedom of speech for instance? Or Russia for their past actions in the middle east?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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ray245 wrote:
Jub wrote: This proves that they've got a pretty narrow vision and lack of context. Their religion isn't worth the paper it is written on, no religion is. Am I inciting something by saying that?
So fucking what? Good luck trying to convince them to share your view.
I don't care if they want to share my view. As long as they fuck off and do it where they aren't killing people I don't care.
Also, nobody has yet answered what they would do to solve this situation. Even if the West did stop poking the Middle East do you think they would stop hating us? If we left their nations free of our soldiers do you think they would stop attacking us? How long do we leave them alone? Does leaving them alone include not sending them aid and ceasing investment into them?
Why not? Their hatred of foreign powers is largely directed towards the western world because the western nations were the ones that generally fucked them over again and again.

Notice how nations that do not play an active role in middle eastern politics today are not viewed as targets in the eyes of Islamic extremist? Why haven't they attack Japan for having freedom of speech for instance? Or Russia for their past actions in the middle east?
Except that the Anglosphere as a whole isn't doing anything against them. Most of us couldn't care less what the Mid East wants to do as long as they don't do anything to mess with our lives. They're calling enmass for our right to freedom of speech to be abolished to suit their crazy religious views
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Jub wrote: If you're helping recruit for a known terrorist organization that has declared war on a major nation, how safe can you expect to be?
I see you dodge the point. Why is it ok for the West to say what it likes, but suppress things when other people say things it doesn't like. Point two, why would anyone take your claims of free speech seriously when you don't practice what you preach.

You don't need a massive amount of cash to get a message out these days. You could run something like wikileaks from a server farm that you own and then all you would need to do is pay hosting fees. You could do that on a few hundred a month if you had a few people maintaining it.
Ah, so you now admit you do need money to get your message out? So much for "Shutting down funding keeps nobody from speaking as they wish". Concession accepted genius. Now perhaps you might actually address the other point. If wikileaks only needs a tiny amount, why then does the US go through all that effort to starve it off funds if it only requires a small amount. Everytime you talk you contradicts a previous axiom you have stated.
I said it was better, not perfect.
Which does not address my point whatsover. Let me reiterate the point since you like to dodge. The West also tries to suppress free speech that it doesn't like. The wikileaks example was the one given. The fact it suppresses it differently makes no difference from a free speech perspective. It makes a different from a "kill less people" perspective, but not the former. Now address the point that the West has also suppressed free speech when its convenient, ergo its hypocritical and a double standard to criticise Muslims for doing it when its convenient for them.

I mean China also suppressed free speech by mass internet censorship. It doesn't burn down American embassies. Is that ok from a free speech perspective?
Who threw the first punch in this latest conflict?
How is that ever relevant to your claim that its ok to be hypocritical because the West has the bigger stick? Would you like me to quote what was said. You are literally trying to change the narrow topic to an "us vs them" argument.
Which nations sponsored the people who flew planes into buildings with the express intent of killing civilians?
Well not Iraq, but that didn't stop you throwing the first punch against them in the "latest conflict". Oops.

And the answer to your question is extremists from Saudi Arabia. Oh wait, you guys didn't attack them.
When you're acting like a criminal your rights tend to be suspended.
Fair enough. Certainly some rights are suspended as a criminal, for example you lose freedom while in gaol. So when can I expect you to apply the same standards to Western leaders then?
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Why shouldn't we exercise our rights? Why should we let them dictate anything to us? Why should we give up our freedoms due to their sensibilities? Why should we give a shit what these poor ignorant fucks think about anything?
Because you are adult human being, and adults make sacrifices so that they can achieve their goals. I don't know where you get the idea that the people in this thread think you shouldn't have the right to do this, we are asking people generally have the restraint and self control not to. Every time you choose to insult offend or humiliate some one just because you can, you are personally perpetuating the problem that we are talking about here. You can choose to act like a child and demand your right to throw a tantrum and insult everyone and everyone you see fit, that's fine, just do it in the knowledge that when you do so you are actively making the world a worse place, just a tiny bit, a minuscule fraction in the enormous cluster fuck that is the world we live in, admittedly, but you are still making things worse.

You know when free speech has the most power? When you use it sparingly. If you insult a man you don't like daily, one more insult on the top, however justified, just gets lost in the noise. If you deal with a man you don't like with respect and at least common courtesy, at least understand his position even if you don't like or agree with it, the day when you do insult him he is much, much more likely to actually think about what you said He might wonder why you, a person who is normally at least polite is insulting him? Was it something he did? Should he not do it again? If so why not? Sure, there will always be dickheads and there will always be people who react with violence to slights or perceived slights, they sure as hell still exist in the west as well, you can tell because gay people get beat up for being gay, black people still get beat up for being black, muslims get beat up for being muslims and it will never stop entirely, but you won't convince those people anyway. You want to change the mind of the man on the street, the 'moderate' muslim you think should stand up to the extremists? The ones you are so convinced you're better than because you don't riot when someone insults your religion/hometown/country whatever? Fucking act like it. Show him you are and you might just get lucky and convince a person to try and be more like you. You might not, but at least you didn't make the problem any worse.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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Jub wrote:Not to mention the fact that they had ahead start on nation building compared to the rest of the world. I can't feel sorry that they lost their lead and started marching backwards from there.
Got to love the logic, here. This is in response to people pointing out that the Middle East resents the West for our centuries of manipulation/invasion/colonization/etc. in the region. According to Jub, though, we shouldn't regret our actions there, because it is THEIR fault that they have "marched backwards," and said supposed regression (which doesn't even exist, by the way, and is indicative of an incredibly narrow and ignorant view of both current and historical events in the region) has nothing to do with Western intervention. What a fucking moron.
Jub wrote:Where are the governments of the middle east speaking out and making even token gestures to keep their neighbors sane?
So let me get this straight ... one dude making a film is not representative of the West, and the Muslims are idiots for thinking that it is, according to you. However, these protests ARE somehow representative of millions of people who have had no part in them. Have you really not noticed how the majority of the Middle East has not endorsed these protests? Hell, Libya and Egypt have already spoken out about the violence. And this isn't even getting into the dozens of nations in the region that haven't had protests AT ALL. Moron.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

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But they're not making efforts to keep their neighbours sane. If they're not invading to put down riots in another country, how can they be taken seriously? :lol: The only acceptable standard of conduct is 'world police'.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Phantasee »

The Ottawa Citizen's Dan Gardner suggests we are asking the wrong question.
Column: The decline of religious violence

By Dan Gardner, Ottawa Citizen September 25, 2012 7:01 PM


Someone says, draws, writes, or films something offensive to devout Muslims. Riots break out in Muslim countries. People die.

We saw this movie yet again last week. And we had the usual discussion that follows, which mostly involves puzzled Westerners wondering where all this Muslim rage comes from.

But I can’t help but wonder if we’re asking the wrong question.

Throughout human history, the norm is clear: If I offend that which you hold sacred, you become enraged and burn my hut down, and if the offence is egregious, you burn my hut down with me and my family in it.

The creation of laws and states to enforce them didn’t change the norm so much as make it more orderly. If I offend that which you hold sacred, you demand that the magistrate clap me in irons, torture me, or kill me using some colourful technique that maximizes the drama of the moment and the educational value of my death. This avoided the messiness of mob violence, and thus represented a genuine civilizational advance. But sometimes the law would be incapable of delivering heads, or the magistrate unwilling, and in such cases the aggrieved parties would deem it perfectly reasonable to gather together and burn my hut down with me and my family in it, or, if my hut and I were not at hand, to burn and kill what and who was.

That is the story through most of recorded history.

Just look at the books which the Abrahamic religions deem holy. “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord,” God says to Moses in Leviticus, “he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.” Note that God doesn’t utter these words in response to some substantial provocation, like a blasphemous book, cartoon, or film. No, that is God’s command when a single curse is uttered by one man — who will subsequently be set upon and stoned to death by a mob filled with righteous fury.

We can easily imagine how that mob looks because we saw many like it last week, on television.

Of course tolerance did appear sporadically in history, usually in trading societies where a rigid insistence on piety was bad for business. But tolerance almost always meant putting up with the presence of heretics if they shut their mouths, lowered their eyes, and kept their obscenities strictly private. It did not mean heretics were permitted to criticize the righteous, much less mock the true faith. The magistrate would shut that down straight away, and with satisfactory suffering.

Even that extremely limited notion of tolerance was rare. The historian Will Durant helpfully calculated that, on average, during the reign of Henry VIII, 3.25 heretics were burned per year, which was positively restrained and surgical compared to the countless rampages and pogroms inflicted on deviants through history. The 13th-century Crusade against Cathar heretics in southern France, which butchered men, women, and children by the tens of thousands, produced a motto beloved of zealots everywhere: “Kill them all, the Lord will recognize his own,” a monk said when he was asked how the Crusaders could distinguish evil Cathars from good Catholics.


And don’t think this is solely about religion, narrowly defined. French revolutionaries were explicitly anti-religious but they, too, had a sense of the sacred and an array of symbols that expressed it, and in fighting the Vendean counter-revolutionaries they behaved like Crusaders wiping out Cathars. Bolsheviks, Nazis, Maoists. True Believers are like that, whatever the content of their belief. Offend that which they hold sacred and they’ll burn your hut down.

Liberal democracies are not entirely innocent, however. Many Western countries have laws that punish those who deny the Holocaust, or the Armenian genocide, or other facts of history we feel are sacrosanct. They even have blasphemy laws on the books, although they mostly gather dust: The last such prosecution in Britain occurred in 1922, when a British judge sentenced a man to nine months’ hard labour for comparing Jesus to a clown.

This country actually has a law against blasphemy. It’s section 296 of the Criminal Code, which deems “blasphemous libel” a crime punishable by up to two years in prison, unless the libel in question makes an argument about a religious subject in good faith and “decent language.” The last attempted prosecution under Section 296 was in 1935 and the law would almost certainly be struck down as a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms if the Crown attempted to prosecute, say, the producers of South Park for their many blasphemous libels expressed in language that is most assuredly not decent.

That’s progress. But more important is the transformation of the attitude that created blasphemy laws in the first place.

Today, in Western countries, and many others, if I offend that which you hold sacred, you call me a jerk, and if the offence is egregious, you refuse to talk to me or purchase my goods and services and encourage others to do likewise. It would never occur to you to burn my hut, much less my family.

This attitude of genuine tolerance is the foundation of any modern civilization, which is why the 1979 release of the Monty Python movie Life of Brian should be seen as a significant event in history. Many devout Christians were deeply offended by Life of Brian and yet calls for censorship and prosecution were few and unsuccessful (apart from certain medieval backwaters, including Norway and Ireland, which have improved considerably since then). And of course there were no angry mobs, riots, or huts reduced to ashes.

Instead, there was a debate on the BBC, which gave John Cleese the opportunity to note that “four hundred years ago, we would have been burnt for this film. Now, I’m suggesting that we’ve made an advance.”

Precisely. Which is why we might learn more if we stopped asking why so many Muslims behave as people have always behaved and started asking why we don’t.


And while we’re at it, let’s bear in mind that an unknowable but certainly large number of Muslims do not riot or demand prosecution when they are offended. The “we” in the sentence above very much includes them.

Dan Gardner’s column appears Wednesday and Friday. Email: dgardner@ottawacitizen.com
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ray245
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by ray245 »

Precisely. Which is why we might learn more if we stopped asking why so many Muslims behave as people have always behaved and started asking why we don’t.
The explanation according to Zadius is that the religious community got insulted so much to the extend that they get use to it, despite having nothing to back up his claims so far.
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Phantasee
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Phantasee »

I wouldn't waste time arguing with the anti-theist/smugtheist crowd. They're so anti-religion they can't be reasoned with, for them religion is always completely bad even if it's not the real issue in any situation.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by mr friendly guy »

Considering I am a) anti-theist and would depending on your outlook be counted as a smugtheist, and b) I can see that events like this is not just FREE SPEECH FOR TEH WIN, thats quite a statement.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Civil War Man »

mr friendly guy wrote:Considering I am a) anti-theist and would depending on your outlook be counted as a smugtheist, and b) I can see that events like this is not just FREE SPEECH FOR TEH WIN, thats quite a statement.
Phant's point just went completely over your head.

This thread is full of people claiming that muslims are evil bomb-chucking lunatics and that we shouldn't even attempt to open a dialog with them because their evil religion makes it impossible to reason with them.

Now read his post again.
Phantasee wrote:I wouldn't waste time arguing with the anti-theist/smugtheist crowd. They're so anti-religion they can't be reasoned with, for them religion is always completely bad even if it's not the real issue in any situation.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Phantasee »

Yeah, you may be anti-theist in contexts where it's relevant, but you're not being anti-theist here, because you recognize it's not the actual issue.

It's not a knock on anti-theists in general, I'm totally cool with people holding that view, but when it becomes a set of blinders, it's as bad as religion itself can be.
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Re: French Mohammed cartooons

Post by Justforfun000 »

Wow. This is one of the toughest issues I've ever come across. I of course side with the general majority here in the sense of secular, humanitarianism values being the best template of choice. However after all the arguments and points demonstrating how in depth the religious fundamentalism goes in their society and what that becomes in actuality..I'm torn and stumped!

We have to fight religious faiths in a very real sense. I'm not saying there isn't a place for them..I'm not saying you cannot be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Hindu...etc...but the rational based points that we can societaly challenge and demand to be accepted by science and rational thought must be fought for as a non negotiable ideal.

I'm personally discouraged when it comes to the reality of where the grand majority of people identifying as muslims really are in terms of enlightenment with accepted secular knowledge. Of course the freedom of speech of the cartoons are fine. But that's the rub...we have no choice but to accept the breaking of eggs to make an omelet in a sense. We cannot honestly challenge and alter people's religious beliefs without being able to criticize and examine them in all ways including satirical representations. "Sacred cows" are nothing more then a magic shield of you are evil to say anything bad about us...period. Impossible to work with if you follow their demand.
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