Navy Announces Research Vessel to be Named in Honor of Neil

[Gandalf]

And if this thread was to have any point related to the article or being a news topic at all, it ought to have been how naming a ship after Armstrong goes completely against what we knew of him in his later years, which was a man unhappy at worst and indifferent at best with his fame. But that would have been too relevant.

I assumed that ships were named for the "historical narrative figure" or whatever you want to call it, as opposed to the person. Stuff is named for Washington/Jefferson/Lee, despite their less than ideal relalities. Similarly, anything bearing the name Armstrong isn't for the reclusive individual, but rather the guy who planted the flag on the moon.

Of course, I could be off.

[PeZook]

Hey, I originally brought up Columbus in response to the claim that Armstrong is the Most Famous Explorer Ever (which is absurd- I bet half the people in Russia would name Gagarin and wouldn't have a clue as to who Armstrong is, but everyone knows Columbus). Somehow, that turned into "Columbus isn't good enough, we need MAGELLAN." Thus, missing the original point entirely.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

It's actually a good point that more people probably know who Columbus is, and my response about Magellan...yeah, it's kinda stupid since it doesn't have a lot to do with fame. But really, most Russians wouldn't know Armstrong's name? I somehow doubt that.

It still seems appropriate to name an American scientific exploration ship after him, though.

I don't really see what Armstrong ever did on the voyage that another of many competent American astronauts could not have.

Probably not much, but he was chosen as commander for Apollo 11 because he has proven before that he can keep his cool in the face of imminent and horrible death.

[LaCroix]

Other than Magellan, Armstrong had a couple of unmanned missions exploring the way for him, a couple of manned missions circling the moon before him. You know, he was in Apollo ELEVEN...

His mission was doing nothing new but to put human bodies in the lander instead of ballast.
Great achievement? Yes. But not even striking distance of what Magellan/Elcanto went through in terms of hardships.

[PeZook]

His mission was doing nothing new but to put human bodies in the lander instead of ballast.

I wouldn't call two major maneuvers (landing, launch to lunar orbit) and a lunar EVA "nothing new".

[Irbis]

While a DDG wouldn't have been out of line (famous naval officer, with combat time) the AGOR is decidedly non-political, which is why I suspect it was selected. It's still nice to see.

DDG? That would make literally no sense. What in common with navy he had?

No, what would have been good fit is CVN

But it is funny to see people calling a man a genius at sea for getting almost everyone he led killed.

Getting almost everyone killed (read - getting a big chunk of expedition home) when most other captains would get everyone killed or expedition retreating halfway is kind of accomplishment, don't you think.

[LaCroix]

His mission was doing nothing new but to put human bodies in the lander instead of ballast.

I wouldn't call two major maneuvers (landing, launch to lunar orbit) and a lunar EVA "nothing new".

As far as I know, the landing and launch to orbit was already remotely tested on the moon in prior missions (9 and 10). So the only "new" thing was actually landing and stepping out.

Complicated, yes. New? 50%. Nothing on the scale of "going where absolutely no one has ever gone before", like Magellan attempted.

[PeZook]

As far as I know, the landing and launch to orbit was already remotely tested on the moon in prior missions (9 and 10). So the only "new" thing was actually landing and stepping out.

No, actually: both 9 and 10 tested stage separation and the rendezvous radar, but 11 had to actually achieve orbit - major difference right there, especially in light of the computer overflow problems on landing.

10 also didn't even reach the high gate, not breaking orbit at all - and it was the descent from high gate to landing which was the most pilot-intensive and dangerous part of a full G-type mission.

So, two major maneuvers never attempted before, plus surface activity where nobody really knew what to expect. The surface activity itself was a huge unknown, because it involved getting out and then back in the LM while covered in lunar dust and carrying samples, which had to be properly stowed, the avionics would change state several times (flight configuration/landing rest configuration/launch configuration/flight configuration), etc.

Complicated, yes. New? 50%. Nothing on the scale of "going where absolutely no one has ever gone before", like Magellan attempted.

Wait...Magellan pretty clearly went where people went once before, since he was speared in the face by one

Tongue in cheek, yeah. I get what you're saying.

[Borgholio]

I think the greatness of an explorer should be measured not in the details of the trip, but the outcome and legacy of the trip...how much it changes the world. To me, Columbus is rated higher than Magellan. Magellan had a much longer and harder voyage, yes...but Columbus redrew the map. He changed the world overnight (not literally, of course). Magellan did not. He just circumnavigated where other people had been before.

I don't think we really should compare Armstrong to past sea expeditions though. It's apples and oranges. Others have (correctly) pointed out that the moon landing was a carefully planned and orchestrated event, and other men probably could have done it. Armstrong didn't discover new continents or redraw the map, but he was a symbol of man's desire to explore beyond the Earth. One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind is exactly right. In the future, the Mars landings will probably overshadow everything that Armstrong did...except for one thing. He was the first to set foot on an alien world. Other people may take greater leaps than he did, but all of them will just be following his lead.

[Captain Seafort]

I think the greatness of an explorer should be measured not in the details of the trip, but the outcome and legacy of the trip...how much it changes the world. To me, Columbus is rated higher than Magellan. Magellan had a much longer and harder voyage, yes...but Columbus redrew the map. He changed the world overnight (not literally, of course). Magellan did not. He just circumnavigated where other people had been before.

Being an incompetent idiot whose fundamental premise was proved wrong, but surviving through sheer luck, does not make an individual a great explorer. It makes them a jammy bastard.

[weemadando]

Also, Columbus discovered what plenty of people had found before.

I mean, besides the Vikings, there were the Polynesians and possibly even some Melanesian groups who definitely made it to the Americas and had trade/colonies.

There's the very tenuous suggestions that the Romans and/or Phoenicians may have made some journeys. This is still VERY muddy waters though as the evidence that has turned up (and not been proven to be a fake/misinterpretation) is ambiguous at best.

[Gil Hamilton]

Armstrong versus Magellan, huh? One of those people was killed in the process of trying to slaughter natives in the name of Christianity, after a long career of killing and plundering people who couldn't defend themselves well enough against the Spanish or Portuguese. The other flew through vacuum and radiation in a metal can perched on top of the world's hugest rocket to go to another celestial body and managed not to enslave or murder anyone in the process. Who was the greater man, hmm?

[Captain Seafort]

There's the very tenuous suggestions that the Romans and/or Phoenicians may have made some journeys. This is still VERY muddy waters though as the evidence that has turned up (and not been proven to be a fake/misinterpretation) is ambiguous at best.

There's even the possibility that it was done during the ice age, in canoes, by paddling along the edge of the ice, although I don't the details of the evidence for that.

Armstrong versus Magellan, huh? One of those people was killed in the process of trying to slaughter natives in the name of Christianity, after a long career of killing and plundering people who couldn't defend themselves well enough against the Spanish or Portuguese. The other flew through vacuum and radiation in a metal can perched on top of the world's hugest rocket to go to another celestial body and managed not to enslave or murder anyone in the process. Who was the greater man, hmm?

Greater? Magellan without a doubt, for all the reasons already stated. "Great" and "good" are not synonyms.

[Gil Hamilton]

Greater? Magellan without a doubt, for all the reasons already stated. "Great" and "good" are not synonyms.

Bullshit. Magellan was nothing but a murdering slaver. His big accomplishment was a means for the Spanish to more thoroughly brutalize Indonesia for resources and managed to get himself killed foolishly attacking someone because he wanted to enslave them and forcibly convert them to Catholicism.

He's nothing compared to Neil Armstrong.

[Captain Seafort]

Bullshit. Magellan was nothing but a murdering slaver. His big accomplishment was a means for the Spanish to more thoroughly brutalize Indonesia for resources and managed to get himself killed foolishly attacking someone because he wanted to enslave them and forcibly convert them to Catholicism.

Whether or not he was a nice bloke is utterly irrelevant. The issues that are relevant are his feats of navigation, leadership, organisation and endurance. Armstrong's achievement is impressive, but it doesn't come close to Magellan's.

[Gil Hamilton]

Whether or not he was a nice bloke is utterly irrelevant. The issues that are relevant are his feats of navigation, leadership, organisation and endurance. Armstrong's achievement is impressive, but it doesn't come close to Magellan's.

That's awesome. Being a racist, murdering slaver who made his fortune pillaging people who couldn't defend themselves is "not a nice bloke" to you. Huh.

Magellan's goals and behavior vastly overshadow any "accomplishment" he had. He doesn't even touch Neil Armstrong in greatness, who entirely peacefully helped lead the exploration of another celestial object in one of the greatest projects mankind has ever undertook and spent the rest of his life helping push forward science education for all people. The Apollo Project was for all of us and a far greater accomplishment than sailing around the world so that they guy who hired him could more effectively murder and rob people.

How fucked up are you that you are gleefully describing how awesome it is that a guy lead a fleet of ships to better rape, murder, and pillage people who had the misfortune of not being Spanish?

[weemadando]

Kinda like how Armstrong used the Apollo mission to stop the Cold War, kick Nixon out of office and get America out of Vietnam, right Gil?

[Thanas]

That's awesome. Being a racist, murdering slaver who made his fortune pillaging people who couldn't defend themselves is "not a nice bloke" to you. Huh.

Magellan's goals and behavior vastly overshadow any "accomplishment" he had. He doesn't even touch Neil Armstrong in greatness, who entirely peacefully helped lead the exploration of another celestial object in one of the greatest projects mankind has ever undertook and spent the rest of his life helping push forward science education for all people. The Apollo Project was for all of us and a far greater accomplishment than sailing around the world so that they guy who hired him could more effectively murder and rob people.

How fucked up are you that you are gleefully describing how awesome it is that a guy lead a fleet of ships to better rape, murder, and pillage people who had the misfortune of not being Spanish?

I am sure you have heard of Alexander the Great, whose greatness pretty much only leads in leading a horde of uneducated savages to plunder, rage, pillage and murder people who had the misfortune of not being Macedonian. Achievements need to be viewed within the context of their time.

[fgalkin]

We come in peace for all mankind (while murdering the hell out of yellow people because they're not mankind).

Oh, and Thanas, celebrating the achievements of Alexander the Great is like celebrating Tamerlane or Genghis Khan. Except, of course, he was on "our" side, so he is a Great instead.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[weemadando]

I'll celebrate the fuck out of some of Ghengis Khan's achievements.

Doesn't change the fact that his culture was one of utter barbarity by our standards and thus he & family committed a decent chunk of any Top 10 list of historical atrocities.

[fgalkin]

I'll celebrate the fuck out of some of Ghengis Khan's achievements.

Doesn't change the fact that his culture was one of utter barbarity by our standards and thus he & family committed a decent chunk of any Top 10 list of historical atrocities.

And Tamerlane killed more people than World War I. With 14th century technology. That's dedication.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Irbis]

Armstrong versus Magellan, huh? One of those people was killed in the process of trying to slaughter natives in the name of Christianity, after a long career of killing and plundering people who couldn't defend themselves well enough against the Spanish or Portuguese. The other flew through vacuum and radiation in a metal can perched on top of the world's hugest rocket to go to another celestial body and managed not to enslave or murder anyone in the process. Who was the greater man, hmm?

One leading expedition he put together for years through things that could have killed everyone aboard multiple times over, while vastly expanding out geographical knowledge, the other taking control of tin can handed to him a few times, to bring back home a few photos and plant a flag. Hmm, hard choice.

Oh, and if Moluccas happened to be as barren as the Moon, I'm pretty sure both would be equal in this regard. After all, Mr. Neil had little objections to doing mass slaughter before.

Bullshit. Magellan was nothing but a murdering slaver. His big accomplishment was a means for the Spanish to more thoroughly brutalize Indonesia for resources and managed to get himself killed foolishly attacking someone because he wanted to enslave them and forcibly convert them to Catholicism.

He's nothing compared to Neil Armstrong.

Back in Magellan's time, giving someone Catholicism meant that you saved someone from Hell, forever. There was literally no greater thing you could have done for someone else, at a request of allied head of state at that. Yeah, now I see how no one virtuous would do that

Oh, and yeah, Magellan is nothing compared to Armstrong. After all, Neil only bombed the shit out of more yellow people than Magellan's men put together ever did, he leads both in quality and quantity

[fgalkin]

And at least Magellan's ships weren't built by Nazi war criminals like Neil's was.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Eternal_Freedom]

And at least Magellan's ships weren't built by Nazi war criminals like Neil's was.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Grumman and North American Aviation were run by Nazis?

[Tanasinn]

I can only assume he's referring to American pet Nazis like von Braun, who could be at the very best stated to be indifferent to the slaves expended in factories so long as he got to play with his fucking rockets. Or Arthur Rudolph, who was down in the muck of using slave labor in the Nazi war machine. At least we deported that slime.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I can only assume he's referring to American pet Nazis like von Braun, who could be at the very best stated to be indifferent to the slaves expended in factories so long as he got to play with his fucking rockets. Or Arthur Rudolph, who was down in the muck of using slave labor in the Nazi war machine. At least we deported that slime.

I knew exactly what he was referring to. I wanted to point out his flawed idea. The actual spacecraft used were designed and built by AMerican companies and von Braun and co had little to no input.