Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

Post by Edi »

So, Romney and his neocon advisers wish to remove any and all restrictions on the US using torture against terrorist subjects. In other news, the sky is blue, but at least it is being discussed.

The most surprising thing about the NYT article is that they actually use the word torture in a few instances when they refer to US actions. Given the normally craven nature of the major US media outlets, it would have been out of the question even a fairly short time ago.

I encourage everyone to go through the link to the NYT site and read the article there, because it has a lot of embedded links to other reference material.
New York Times wrote:
Election to Decide Future Interrogation Methods in Terrorism Cases
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: September 27, 2012

WASHINGTON — Neither Barack Obama nor Mitt Romney has said much about torture as part of terrorism investigations during the 2012 general campaign. But the future of American government practices when interrogating high-level terrorism suspects appears likely to turn on the outcome of the election.

In one of his first acts, President Obama issued an executive order restricting interrogators to a list of nonabusive tactics approved in the Army Field Manual. Even as he embraced a hawkish approach to other counterterrorism issues — like drone strikes, military commissions, indefinite detention and the Patriot Act — Mr. Obama has stuck to that strict no-torture policy.

By contrast, Mr. Romney’s advisers have privately urged him to “rescind and replace President Obama’s executive order” and permit secret “enhanced interrogation techniques against high-value detainees that are safe, legal and effective in generating intelligence to save American lives,” according to an internal Romney campaign memorandum.

While the memo is a policy proposal drafted by Mr. Romney’s advisers in September 2011, and not a final decision by him, its detailed analysis dovetails with his rare and limited public comments about interrogation.

“We’ll use enhanced interrogation techniques which go beyond those that are in the military handbook right now,” he said at a news conference in Charleston, S.C., in December.

The campaign policy paper does not specify which techniques Mr. Romney should approve, saying more study was needed because Mr. Obama had “permanently damaged” the value of some by releasing memorandums detailing Bush-era techniques in April 2009.

After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Bush administration lawyers approved as legal, despite antitorture laws, such tactics as prolonged sleep deprivation, shackling into painful “stress” positions for long periods while naked and in a cold room, slamming into a wall, locking inside a small box, and the suffocation tactic called waterboarding. The goal was to break the will to resist of detainees believed to be withholding information.

When disclosed, the Bush policies ignited a heated debate that continues to flare. The policy’s supporters say they were lawful and extracted valuable information that helped save lives. Critics contend that they were illegal and damaged the United States’ moral standing, and that the same or better information could have been obtained with nonabusive tactics.

The Romney campaign document, obtained by The New York Times, is a five-page policy paper titled “Interrogation Techniques.” It was a near-final draft circulated last September among the Romney campaign’s “national security law subcommittee” for any further comments before it was to be submitted to Mr. Romney. The panel consists of a brain trust of conservative lawyers, most of whom are veterans of the George W. Bush administration.

The Romney campaign did not respond to a request for comment.

The policy paper acknowledges that it is hard to know what would be different had Mr. Bush’s interrogation policy continued. But it argues that Mr. Obama’s approach has “hampered (or will hamper) the fight against terrorism” by forbidding techniques “that we should feel, as a nation, that we have a right to use against our enemies.”

In particular, it criticizes Mr. Obama for restricting interrogators to a “one-size-fits-all approach” designed for routine battlefield captures by ordinary soldiers, not high-level terrorist operatives in the custody of the Central Intelligence Agency. It also notes that the Army Field Manual is available on the Internet, so enemies can study it.

Last December, Mr. Romney was asked about waterboarding at a town-hall meeting in Charleston. He replied that he would “do what is essential to protect the lives of the American people” but would not list “for our enemies around the world” what techniques the United States would use.

Mr. Romney also declared that he would “not authorize torture.” At the news conference afterward, a reporter pressed him to say whether he thought waterboarding was torture, and Mr. Romney replied, “I don’t.”

That comment appeared to align Mr. Romney with a practice by the executive branch, under President Bush, of defining torture narrowly and saying the harsh treatment it inflicted on detainees fell short of that level. By contrast, Mr. Obama has embraced a more expansive conception of the suffering that is off-limits.

“Waterboarding is torture,” Mr. Obama said in November. “It’s contrary to America’s traditions. It’s contrary to our ideals. That’s not who we are. That’s not how we operate. We don’t need it in order to prosecute the war on terrorism. And we did the right thing by ending that practice. If we want to lead around the world, part of our leadership is setting a good example.”

Uncertainties remain. One open question is whether a Romney administration would wait to decide which additional techniques to authorize until an important terrorism suspect is captured alive. That could take a while: the government’s counterterrorism apparatus has, under Mr. Obama, centered on tactics that kill, like drone strikes.

Moreover, the Central Intelligence Agency could give “a certain amount of passive-aggressive resistance” to any directive to restart any aggressive interrogation practices that could leave it exposed if political winds shift again, said Mark Lowenthal, who was its assistant director for analysis and production from 2002 to 2005.

Finally, because the Bush administration’s interrogation policy evolved, it is not clear which techniques a Republican-style Justice Department would consider lawful.

In 2005, Steven Bradbury, who led the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel in Mr. Bush’s second term, took a fresh look at C.I.A. interrogation tactics and reapproved them as not violating an antitorture statute, even when combined. He also concluded that they did not violate a more sweeping prohibition on “cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment” established by a treaty; at the time, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, was pushing, over the Bush administration’s objections, to codify that rule in domestic statutes.

In 2006, however, the Supreme Court ruled that the Geneva Conventions protected wartime Qaeda prisoners, contrary to Bush administration legal theories. The C.I.A. shuttered its program, and Congress passed a law limiting the ruling’s impact by specifying specific categories of ill treatment that would be considered grave breaches.

The next year, the agency proposed restarting a more limited version of its program, using sleep deprivation, withholding solid food, slapping and head grabbing. Mr. Bradbury approved that shorter list of tactics. It remained ambiguous whether the others, too, were still legally permissible if a policy maker wanted to use them.

Mr. Bradbury, who declined to comment, was one of 18 lawyers on the Romney campaign’s national security law subcommittee when its “Interrogation Techniques” paper was circulated.

The list also included Michael Chertoff, the former homeland security secretary; Cully Stimson, the Pentagon’s detainee policy chief; and many other Bush-era executive branch veterans: Bradford Berenson, Elliot S. Berke, Todd F. Braunstein, Gus P. Coldebella, Jimmy Gurule, Richard D. Klingler, Ramon Martinez, Brent J. McIntosh, John C. O’Quinn, John J. Sullivan, Michael Sullivan and Alex Wong. Three others — Lee A. Casey, Maureen E. Mahoney and David B. Rivkin Jr. — served in earlier Republican administrations.

A distribution e-mail said that the paper “reflects input from several members of the subcommittee” without specifying them or saying whether anyone disagreed with it.

Mr. Romney has consistently opposed ruling out interrogation techniques. At a debate in 2007, he sparred with Senator McCain over whether the United States should renounce waterboarding. And last year, in response to a survey on executive power, he said he opposed “torture” but criticized Mr. Obama’s approach.

“I support the use of appropriate and necessary interrogation techniques to obtain information from high-value terrorists who possess knowledge critical to our national defense,” Mr. Romney said. “I do not believe it is wise for our country to reveal all of the precise interrogation methods we may authorize for use against captured terrorists, and I strongly condemn the actions taken by President Obama to do so.”

Ashley Parker contributed reporting.
Link to Romney campaign memo.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

Post by K. A. Pital »

Which Republican candidate who had a real shot at presidency has ever opposed torture (and I mean for real, not "I oppose torture but you see it's not torture when we do it to our enemies")?
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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None that I know of. Except maybe Ron Paul (who is mad, but fairly consistent, and at least sometimes willing to do the decent, principled thing if his beliefs tell him he ought to).

I've been telling people this for months whenever I get "you shouldn't vote for Obama because of his human rights record! You're endorsing torture and concentration camps!"

The alternatives are not appealing, people.

I think the only thing that's going to make the US's human rights position normal again, if anything ever does, is time. Time for the political structure to stop reacting to 9/11 and start reacting to the very real problems we face which they can't even pretend to solve with waterboarding and sleep deprivation of Very Bad Men.

I think that's already beginning to happen a little bit. Security and 'war on terror' issues dominated the 2004 election, and played a roughly equal role to the economy in the 2008 election. But they're now becoming largely irrelevant to this election because virtually all Americans have bigger things on their minds.

After about one more election cycle, the sheer panic and terror will have mostly washed out of our systems, I think. And then it will far too gradually become a problem for the lawyers and judges to consider calmly again, instead of something for presidents to 'look tough' by threatening to torture helpless prisoners.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

Post by Flagg »

Stas Bush wrote:Which Republican candidate who had a real shot at presidency has ever opposed torture (and I mean for real, not "I oppose torture but you see it's not torture when we do it to our enemies")?
John McCain. That's it.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Ah, excuse me. I was thinking only of this election cycle.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Of course Obama is anti-torture. After all, that's what the allied nations are for.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Flagg wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Which Republican candidate who had a real shot at presidency has ever opposed torture (and I mean for real, not "I oppose torture but you see it's not torture when we do it to our enemies")?
John McCain. That's it.
But he backpedaled to get the Republican nomination for PotUS, shame on him. Double shame on him, as he has direct, personal experience of being a torture victim.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

Post by K. A. Pital »

Flagg wrote:John McCain. That's it.
Thought as much. Thanks for confirming.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Flagg wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Which Republican candidate who had a real shot at presidency has ever opposed torture (and I mean for real, not "I oppose torture but you see it's not torture when we do it to our enemies")?
John McCain. That's it.
Goldwater might have opposed it, but he was practically a Democrat by today's standards.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Simon_Jester wrote:The alternatives are not appealing, people.
Vote for Jill Stein. Vote for Gary Johnson.
I think the only thing that's going to make the US's human rights position normal again, if anything ever does, is time. Time for the political structure to stop reacting to 9/11 and start reacting to the very real problems we face which they can't even pretend to solve with waterboarding and sleep deprivation of Very Bad Men.
So that's your plan? A race to the bottom between the laissez-faire opponents of human rights violations and the attention spans of the cowards on the other side?
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Grumman wrote: Vote for Jill Stein.
Oh good, the party of anti-vaxxers and homeopathic healthcare.


Vote for Gary Johnson.

The guy whose party's idea of "respecting individual rights" means "kick it to the State government".


Neither of those are particularly appealing to me.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Grumman wrote:Vote for Jill Stein. Vote for Gary Johnson.
Apparently you are operating under a different definition of "alternative." I am not interested in trying to get you to understand what I'm talking about, not if you're not willing to put in the effort on your own.
So that's your plan? A race to the bottom between the laissez-faire opponents of human rights violations and the attention spans of the cowards on the other side?
What's your plan, Grumman? A mass revolt? A military coup? God and his angels descending from on high to smack some sense into people? If so, go right ahead.

If not, I have neither the time nor the inclination to patiently explain to you the difference between what I predict will happen and what I, a powerless random person, would like to do.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Lonestar wrote: The guy whose party's idea of "respecting individual rights" means "kick it to the State government".
To be fair, Johnson rather aggressively attacked Obama for wanting to leave gay marriage to the states, likening it to leaving racial equality to the states. That increased my respect for him by an order of magnitude.

That's why I have a hard time considering Ron Paul a libertarian. Opposing gay marriage and being a libertarian seem mutually contradictory. I guess he can't win anything without support from the Religious Right, and he knows it. Sellout.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Simon_Jester wrote:The alternatives are not appealing, people.
So what about Stewart Alexander?
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Stas Bush wrote:Which Republican candidate who had a real shot at presidency has ever opposed torture (and I mean for real, not "I oppose torture but you see it's not torture when we do it to our enemies")?
Lincoln, Eisenhower, Reagan. Since then...
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Voting for people who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected does not, in the eyes of many people, qualify as an "alternative".

The harsh reality is that either Obama or Romney will be elected in November. The only thing that will prevent one of those two men being elected is some sort of disaster/insurrection/coup that prevents anyone from being elected. Given that the US has not only continued to not only hold elections during civil war and various other catastrophes but hold them on time as scheduled it would have to be one fuck of a Bad Thing to disrupt the election. The actual alternatives at this point are Obama, Romney, and Hideous Hellish Catastrophe. Third parties and independents are out of the running at this point even if their names appear on the ballot in this or that location.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Broomstick wrote:Voting for people who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected does not, in the eyes of many people, qualify as an "alternative".
Voting for people who aren't qualitatively different from their opposition also does not qualify as an "alternative".
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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General Schatten wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Voting for people who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected does not, in the eyes of many people, qualify as an "alternative".
Voting for people who aren't qualitatively different from their opposition also does not qualify as an "alternative".
One candidate wants to sell off federal lands to private interests, the other wants to keep them in public hands. That's not qualitative enough?
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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General Schatten wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Voting for people who haven't a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected does not, in the eyes of many people, qualify as an "alternative".
Voting for people who aren't qualitatively different from their opposition also does not qualify as an "alternative".
See, this "Romney and Obama are the same" thing? It is nearly impossible for me to imagine any person saying with a straight face.

Romney has sworn up and down, left and right, that he will be very different from Obama. He has vowed to do many things that Obama has not done. He has vowed not to do many things that Obama has done. He has vowed to undo the things that Obama has done. Romney has worked hard for many months, and spent a great fortune of money to make every single American believe that he will be very different from Obama.

Do you just not believe that Romney promises to be very different from Obama? Do you think that when he says these things, he is simply lying to cover up being the same as Obama?

I cannot understand what you're thinking. Indeed, I'm not sure if you're thinking.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Simon_Jester wrote:See, this "Romney and Obama are the same" thing? It is nearly impossible for me to imagine any person saying with a straight face.
See, people saying that Obama isn't a conservative politician makes me laugh heartily. Both Romney and Obama are right-wing candidates, it's just a matter of degrees. Obama represents the status quo of conservative politics whereas Romney represents pushing them further, if either of them wins things get worse before they get better and continuing to support the Democrat and the false dichotomy they represent just forestalls any real change from occurring. I do think Romney is different from Obama, I just don't think it's enough to matter.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Simon_Jester wrote: Romney has sworn up and down, left and right, that he will be very different from Obama. He has vowed to do many things that Obama has not done. He has vowed not to do many things that Obama has done. He has vowed to undo the things that Obama has done. Romney has worked hard for many months, and spent a great fortune of money to make every single American believe that he will be very different from Obama.
Typically these sorts of people make the argument that usually the "Liberal" nominee will turn out to be as corrupt and nasty as the Republican Candidate. You usually only tend to see this from jaded people on the far left who usually react when a nominee does not deliver on every little thing they promise.

Basically it is a double sided fallacy. If you are going to say "Obama is just as bas as Romeny" At some point you HAVE to say "Romney is just as bad as Obama" but no where will you ever find any proof of this. And to date, no Republican who is elected suddenly turns into a bleeding heart Liberal.
By definition the "They are just as bad as each other" fails.

Most of these people also tend to compare American "Liberals" to Liberals in Europe. In some ways, American Liberals are far FAR more conservative then those in Europe. But to say that there is no difference between our somewhat "conservative" Liberals, and hard core bat-shit crazies on the right is baffling.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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General Schatten wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:See, this "Romney and Obama are the same" thing? It is nearly impossible for me to imagine any person saying with a straight face.
See, people saying that Obama isn't a conservative politician makes me laugh heartily. Both Romney and Obama are right-wing candidates, it's just a matter of degrees.
By American standards, Obama isn't a conservative politician. The American definition of conservatism is really funny that way. Laugh if you like, I'm too sick of it to care.
Obama represents the status quo of conservative politics whereas Romney represents pushing them further, if either of them wins things get worse before they get better and continuing to support the Democrat and the false dichotomy they represent just forestalls any real change from occurring. I do think Romney is different from Obama, I just don't think it's enough to matter.
Very well. Assume for the sake of argument that I agree with everything you have just said.

So what?

One or the other is going to win, barring a sudden totally unexpected coup or revolution or act of God. I have at least some hope of influencing whether I get the utterly shitty or the approximately tolerable president.

So why do I instead get a bunch of sophomoric jackasses telling me I need to vote for obscure candidates who haven't even made it onto the national election's radar? I mean, if Herman Cain can do that nearly anyone can. These people haven't, and yet somehow if I don't vote for these people who haven't even put in the time and resources to be noticed by the general public, it means I have no personal integrity?

Because I've heard that argument more than once before. I find it deeply sickening, and a symptom of just how stupidly impractical the political left can get. I keep it on a metaphorical shelf, along with all the evidence of how stupidly impractical the political right can get.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Simon_Jester wrote:By American standards, Obama isn't a conservative politician. The American definition of conservatism is really funny that way. Laugh if you like, I'm too sick of it to care.
By American standards insufficient healthcare coverage is better than no coverage, too. You're not too sick to care, just too stupid. You want change for the better, but all your actions reinforce the status quo.
Simon_Jester wrote:So what?
Vote for the candidate that does match you interest. Regardless of whether they're third party or not. The lack of electability of candidates who actually do represent the values you support is a self-fulfilling prophecy, people don't vote for them because they don't believe the candidate has a chance, so they vote for a candidate that isn't significantly removed from his opposition, thus ensuring they don't have a chance, which persuades similar people to not vote for the candidate.

That and lobby for election reform to do away with the archaic institution of plurality voting that actually destroys choice rather than reflects the actual wishes of the populace.
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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GS, just answer me this.
In what is way Romney just as bad as Obama?
How is Romeny the same as Obama?
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Re: Romney Wants to Bring Back Torture

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Crossroads Inc. wrote:GS, just answer me this.
In what is Romney just as bad as Obama?
How is Romeny the same as Obama?
Romney is different. Romney isn't different. Which is the negative...

Take for example his actions on domestic and international security concerns. Both are in support of increasing military spending, the quibble is on how much we should increase it. Both support leaving the indefinite detention centers open, which was a promise of Obama's to end. Both supported expanding the provisions for indefinite detention to include American citizens. Both supported expanding the Patriot Act to allow the President to summarily execute American citizens. Both refuse to meet with the Iranian leaders without precondition, despite Obama promising to do so. Both oppose executive transparency, despite this being another of Obama's campaign promises.

In taxes it's not a matter of whether we should cut taxes, but how much should we cut taxes. On healthcare it's not a matter of whether we should have healthcare reform, it's an argument on whether it should be at the State or Federal level. The only real difference I can find is Obama's okay with gays and Romney isn't. This criticism also extends to Dems as a whole.
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