Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

[General Zod]

Who could have possibly foreseen that extreme economic hardship will give rise to extremist parties? or that austerity during a recession will only further depress an already depressed economy?

It's not like any of this has happened before.

So why should the rest of the EU care at the point? Greece and her citizens made their bed with decades of bad choices, now they get to live with it.

Because just possibly it's not only Greece that would be affected by their collapse?

[Jub]

Because just possibly it's not only Greece that would be affected by their collapse?

Cite the fact that they cooked the books to get in, then cut them loose. Seems easy enough, if not ideal.

[Thanas]

The EU is a community. You simply do not kick out people in need. At least not without making an effort to save them.

[Jub]

The EU is a community. You simply do not kick out people in need. At least not without making an effort to save them.

Not even when those people basically snuck in with forged papers? Also, where do you draw the line and expect them to own up for the bad choices this nation has made?

[Thanas]

Let's get real here. Everyone knows the Greeks pulled a fast one on the EU. The question is what do you do about it? Kick them out as "punishment" and then watch as the nation descends into anarchy? How is that a viable solution?

One cannot simply cut them off from all aid and then go "You. Grovel now."

[Stark]

And indeed doing so would just make the situation worse anyway.

[Jub]

Let's get real here. Everyone knows the Greeks pulled a fast one on the EU. The question is what do you do about it? Kick them out as "punishment" and then watch as the nation descends into anarchy? How is that a viable solution?

One cannot simply cut them off from all aid and then go "You. Grovel now."

What do you want to see done? Germany has to know that they won't be getting much of this money they're spending back?

At any rate if kicking them out and letting them sort things out isn't an option why not try saying something like, 'If you want this money you put up this national asset as collateral, when you pay back the loan you get it back'. They get to swallow the poison pill all on their own that way.

[Stark]

Look I see you trolling and all, but I think it's pretty obvious such moves would directly worsen the situation because its easy to portray it as foreigners plundering Greece. Have you even thought about this?

[Jub]

Look I see you trolling and all, but I think it's pretty obvious such moves would directly worsen the situation because its easy to portray it as foreigners plundering Greece. Have you even thought about this?

I'm honestly looking at this, looking at Greece, and thinking that nobody needs to save them. If they want to be bailed maybe they should act grateful for the aid and not throw it away. If the people hate austerity measures and riot then that just shows that they're not willing to take the blame for the lifestyle they accepted back when times were good. You don't get to enjoy the good parts of being irresponsible without paying for it later in a major way.

If Greece were a person would you feel like giving them money if after the first few times you saw them blowing it on partying?

[Stark]

Yes look we know you're trolling, so you can stop now. Well done. You have the tough answers etc etc etc.

And people hate austerity measures that directly hurt their lives and they feel may not work. When you imagine all your authoritarian solutions to these problems, remember - the Golden Dawn is way ahead of you.

Do you have any constructive ideas or are you simply indulging in more tough guy fantasies of control because you can't or won't engage with complex situations? PROTIP - if the goal is 'prevent Greece sliding into poverty, extremism and violence' your proposed solutions (which I'm sure make you feel strong, like you have volition and punish the 'bad people') are simply retarded.

[Jub]

Yes look we know you're trolling, so you can stop now. Well done. You have the tough answers etc etc etc.

And people hate austerity measures that directly hurt their lives and they feel may not work. When you imagine all your authoritarian solutions to these problems, remember - the Golden Dawn is way ahead of you.

Do you have any constructive ideas or are you simply indulging in more tough guy fantasies of control because you can't or won't engage with complex situations? PROTIP - if the goal is 'prevent Greece sliding into poverty, extremism and violence' your proposed solutions (which I'm sure make you feel strong, like you have volition and punish the 'bad people') are simply retarded.

The funding given so far has worked out well right and I'm sure the rest of the EU just gets the warm fuzzies from spending on Greece. That's why so many nations are stepping up and offering debt relief. Oh wait, that's not what's happening and there must be a reason. The fact is Greece and her people have no faith that the aid is being given in good faith and the people with the money look at them and wonder if they're just going to blow the money again instead of paying the bills.

Then there's the fact that most experts can't even agree on what needs to be done to fix Greece. So aside from giving money to them until the ship stops sinking, or all hands are lost, what do you want to see done? What does Greece even have that they can use to fix the problem, or are we looking at building whole new industrial sectors?

[Thanas]

At any rate if kicking them out and letting them sort things out isn't an option why not try saying something like, 'If you want this money you put up this national asset as collateral, when you pay back the loan you get it back'. They get to swallow the poison pill all on their own that way.

A large part of the greek infrastructure is already being used as guarantee for loans. You want us to increase that, how? Shall we stamp a "property of Germany until you pay, bitches" declaration on the acropolis? (Nevermind the many international conventions that would violate).

How is that going to solve anything? If Greece goes under, do you think any such claims will be enforcable? With what, German panzers rolling into Athen again? Yeah, that'll work and totally not raise unfortunate comparisons....

[Spoonist]

Uhm Jub regarding austerities etc, the priviliged who squandered the greek resources are still priviliged even under austerity. So why the common greek is rioting is not because the reasons you stated but rather that the corruped and priviliged is still in powr and the austerity only hits the commonpeople. For instance the commies tried to put forward that the politicians and public management would cut their own salaries and insane benefits as a sign of good faith to similar levels as that proposed for ordinary folks. It was voted down with 90% of the votes.

[Zaune]

Hard to say, but at the moment looks like it is mainly Germany. Which is not surprising considering it is mainly our money and our name that guarantee the whole thing.

Edit: The problem is that Germany simply saying "We'll cover everything, no questions asked, just put it on our tab" is never going to fly in internal German politics for a majority of reasons. One of those reasons being that we already delayed investments in our own debt and infrastructure in favor of financing the greeks.

Another problem is that nobody trusts the Greek Government or the Greek public anymore due to both being incompetent. Plus, there is the whole "Nazi" spiel they tried to run.

The alternative might be worse though. At best you'll have a million-odd Greek ethnic refugees to absorb -alongside your large ethnic Turkish population; won't that be fun!- and the whole of Europe seeing you as the people who could have prevented a neighbour from descending into tyranny and/or chaos, but chose not to. At worst, we're going to have to reset our "X Years Since Last Major European War" board, and everyone will blame you for that as well.

I'm not suggesting the bailout should be unconditional, however, but I definitely think the conditions attached to it need a major rethink; less cutting back services and laying off public sector employees, more long-term constructive plans for reducing unemployment and improving the balance of trade. A clause in there to the effect of "Don't make all the same mistakes we did in the 1930s" sounds good about now as well.

[Thanas]

But the problem is the overbloated, inefficient public sector. Not doing anything about it will just have us back to square one in a few months. You need layoffs there.

[Zaune]

But the problem is the overbloated, inefficient public sector. Not doing anything about it will just have us back to square one in a few months. You need layoffs there.

I dare say you're right. But is the middle of a recession, when it's an odds-on bet that anyone made redundant will just end up adding to the already acute unemployment problem, really the best time for them? I'm not saying the underlying structural problems don't need to be addressed at some point, but trying to deal with them now is like trying to install a new sprinkler system in a building that's still on fire.

[Thanas]

The problem is that nobody - certainly not I - trusts the Greeks to tackle the problems after they have been bailed out by us. After all, they did not do so for over a decade. Why should they change when the pressure to change is gone?

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Absolutely nothing is overbloated about the Greek public sector, Thanas. You can read Greek, you've said before, so here's this about the size of the public sector: http://e-cynical.blogspot.gr/2009/01/blog-post_20.html

As a percentage, the Greek public sector was 23% in 2006, and no upsizing has happened since then. Germany's was 14%, and Sweden's 33% (these two were the extremes). So, Greece's public sector is not too large by EU standards. It is certainly corrupt and inefficient, but these two are stopped by a non-corrupt government that wants to do something, not by some asshole ranting about layoffs. You wanna know what can stop corruption? Enforcing harsh punishments for accepting bribes, but also enough money to make sure nobody needs a bribe to make it through the month. What did you think, that German officials don't accept bribes because they're good people and Greeks are bad? Hardly, methinks.

Yes look we know you're trolling, so you can stop now. Well done. You have the tough answers etc etc etc.

Unfortunately, the IMF, the Greek government and, sadly, a large part of the electorate are trolling in the exact same way.

[Thanas]

As a percentage, the Greek public sector was 23% in 2006, and no upsizing has happened since then. Germany's was 14%, and Sweden's 33% (these two were the extremes). So, Greece's public sector is not too large by EU standards. It is certainly corrupt and inefficient, but these two are stopped by a non-corrupt government that wants to do something, not by some asshole ranting about layoffs. You wanna know what can stop corruption? Enforcing harsh punishments for accepting bribes, but also enough money to make sure nobody needs a bribe to make it through the month. What did you think, that German officials don't accept bribes because they're good people and Greeks are bad? Hardly, methinks.

Well, part of that is probably cultural, part is inefficiency. Pretty bad that the cuts were not happening that much.

However, what is your solution? That Germany pay the entire bill while Greece does nothing except promise reforms at some point in the future? We and the rest of Europe already paid for over half of the debt of Greece. I do not feel comfortable trusting the Greeks to deliver on any kind of promise anymore, especially considering their whole part in the EU so far has been to take money, do nothing, then act enraged when called upon it.

Simply spending German money is not a solution to the crisis and it is not anything the German voters will support. They feel cheated multiple times by the Greeks, they are not going to simply support spending all their money with Germany enacting its own cutbacks so it can pay Greece's debts while Greece does nothing.

[Stark]

I remember our media reporting Greeks being outragds some time ago that they might be expected to lose or reduce benefits, and that this was a terrible cost too high to pay to prevent the collapse of their country. What does the average Greek on the street feel is the way forward, then? Is it as Dr Trainwreck says, and they all simply have their head in the sand? Is there an outcome that isn't suck down more free money and do nothing OR collapse into insular extremism?

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Well, part of that is probably cultural, part is inefficiency. Pretty bad that the cuts were not happening that much.

However, what is your solution? That Germany pay the entire bill while Greece does nothing except promise reforms at some point in the future? We and the rest of Europe already paid for over half of the debt of Greece. I do not feel comfortable trusting the Greeks to deliver on any kind of promise anymore, especially considering their whole part in the EU so far has been to take money, do nothing, then act enraged when called upon it.

Simply spending German money is not a solution to the crisis and it is not anything the German voters will support. They feel cheated multiple times by the Greeks, they are not going to simply support spending all their money with Germany enacting its own cutbacks so it can pay Greece's debts while Greece does nothing.

You know, we had elections in May, and again in June. Your leaders, surprisingly, seemed to favor the same parties that had taken European money without delivering on their promises. Angela Merkel was even kind enough to say that we'd be out of the Eurozone if we didn't vote for the right person.

As for the money you're giving us, it all goes to the banks. Your banks put your government to give money to ours, so our government can give money to our banks, which then pay back money they owe to your banks. They essentially take money from you, they just make a stop in Greece to make it seem like you're saving these lazy incompetent Greeks. You're actually saving these lazy incompetent bankers. European leaders are completely, utterly bought.

Now, EuroNews is funny. They forgot to add that unemployment is up to 25%, (official) minimum wage is 585 euros, and such charming things. They even forgot to mention that, while no layoffs have happened, wages and allowances in the public sector were slashed. More on the public sector here.

What does the average Greek on the street feel is the way forward, then? Is it as Dr Trainwreck says, and they all simply have their head in the sand? Is there an outcome that isn't suck down more free money and do nothing OR collapse into insular extremism?

The average Greek is indignant at these, but mainstream media are so apeshit pro-austerity he has no idea how anything could work out -Internet usage is relatively low as well. There are a hundred different scenarios for the crisis. There is no scenario that results in pre-crisis living standards, and I think the average Greek will accept it easily at this point. I can't pretend to be an economist, but this much I know.

Fact is, if you could modernize the state, clamp down on tax evasion and corruption, tell the banks to fuck themselves and finally impose some checks and balances on the parliament, reliance on external aid would be lessened. Doing this would be tough, and any government that attempted this would be slammed by other parties, the media and the EU, possibly not surviving for a second term. But at least I can assure Thanas that we don't all pray to the sky for Germans.

But bottom line is, the direction of the country in regards to rightwing extremism and religious fanaticism is simply bad. Worst thing is, even if it could be stopped, our current government would never do it.

[SirNitram]

Whatever banker came up with 'Austerity' and got the governments to latch on should get a medal for best conjob in the financial sector by far. Ponzi WISHES he was this good.

[Tiriol]

My personal opinion is that we (the EU, citizens of the EU, Greeks, Greek government, other governments) and the banks have driven us to a point where there is no solution that would work for all parties involved. Sooner or later something will snap and the rise of fascism in Greece is one such sign. If the Golden Dawn assumes control of Greece, they will tell foreign banks and governments and the EU to go fuck themselves with a rusty chainshaw for all they care. And unless I'm mightily wrong here, Germans won't be sending Panzers over to Greece, Britain will not blockade the place, Italians won't start another incursion to become the new Empire and so on. It will just mean the domino effect of economical disaster. Everyone will blame the Neo-Nazis and how they are all Hitler-worshipping baby-eaters and forget that even those lunatics are just a symptom, not the cause.

Hopefully I'm wrong here. But since I was booted out of my job and have had some health issues I haven't had that bright an outlook on the world.

[bobalot]

I think the solution to Greece's notorious tax evasion problems is to replace current taxes with taxes that difficult to avoid, with the two major sources of income being:

1) Land tax.
2) Excise taxes on fuels.

[Thanas]

You know, we had elections in May, and again in June. Your leaders, surprisingly, seemed to favor the same parties that had taken European money without delivering on their promises. Angela Merkel was even kind enough to say that we'd be out of the Eurozone if we didn't vote for the right person.

That argument is disingenious at best considering the other person had no idea how to deal with it besides "German money" and "no reforms at all". I also like how suddenly Germany is supposed to be at fault for the Greek leaders as well.

As for the money you're giving us, it all goes to the banks. Your banks put your government to give money to ours, so our government can give money to our banks, which then pay back money they owe to your banks. They essentially take money from you, they just make a stop in Greece to make it seem like you're saving these lazy incompetent Greeks. You're actually saving these lazy incompetent bankers. European leaders are completely, utterly bought.

Again, blaming the symptoms not the cause. Without the Greeks sucking at basic math and being irresponsible there would have been no reason for the banks to give them credit in the first place. Now, should the banks be punished for not doing due dilligence but believing Greek lies? Yes, and they lost a good portion of their money by being forced to accept the renegotiation compromise.

Now, EuroNews is funny. They forgot to add that unemployment is up to 25%, (official) minimum wage is 585 euros, and such charming things. They even forgot to mention that, while no layoffs have happened, wages and allowances in the public sector were slashed. More on the public sector here.

Again, pay cuts are not the same thing as firing people. Pay cuts are easily reversed and then we get back to point A.

Fact is, if you could modernize the state, clamp down on tax evasion and corruption, tell the banks to fuck themselves and finally impose some checks and balances on the parliament, reliance on external aid would be lessened. Doing this would be tough, and any government that attempted this would be slammed by other parties, the media and the EU, possibly not surviving for a second term.

Clamping down on tax evasion and corruption would be the best as that should be easier done and cost less money than vague references to modernizing the state.

I think the solution to Greece's notorious tax evasion problems is to replace current taxes with taxes that difficult to avoid, with the two major sources of income being:

1) Land tax.
2) Excise taxes on fuels.

Land tax might not work because the Greek civil service (you know, the same which somehow needs double the percentage of Germany to work a country that should be much easier to administrate) had no idea who owns what land a few years ago. Excise taxes on fuels only hurts small people.