Federation in 100 years vs Galactic Empire

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 04:45am

So youre saying the Rebels should use a Death Star to take out Palpy
Well if they happened to find one in Watto's used starship lot then the fastest, easiest & safest way to end the civil war would be to blowup whatever planet Palpatine happened to be standing on at the moment.

The rebs are to noble for this WoMD approach, their entire foundation is that they are better than the Empire. However as Fed war leader, fighting a loosing battle most likely, setting off a Genesis device on Corusant is a good option. Any operation that produce even a small chance of killing Palpatine is better than being ground to dust by the Imperial military machinery.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 05:36am

Ah yes, the genesis device, which is, after all LOST TECH !
And now don't go and say they've got 100 years to re-invent the device.
The feds had already nearly 100 years of time between the TOS era movies and the DS9/Voy era, and the genesis technology was still not re-discovered.
Therefore, we must assume it is completely lost, ie another 100 years of time for research won't magically bring it back.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2002-08-06 06:11am

Cpt_Frank wrote:Ah yes, the genesis device, which is, after all LOST TECH !
And now don't go and say they've got 100 years to re-invent the device.
The feds had already nearly 100 years of time between the TOS era movies and the DS9/Voy era, and the genesis technology was still not re-discovered.
Therefore, we must assume it is completely lost, ie another 100 years of time for research won't magically bring it back.

From what i know they didn't even tried to re-invent it. They probably thougth the galaxy was not ready for it i guess. So it is lost tech.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 06:26am

Ah yes, the genesis device, which is, after all LOST TECH !
So you have heard of it. How much lost is it? Was every file even remotely connected to the project deleted?

And now don't go and say they've got 100 years to re-invent the device.
Why not? Are you saying that we should restrict our research to fit your concept of how a war should be fought...
The Fed shall develop inferior weapons, shields and engines and mount them on tiny insignificant ships and be blasted to scrap in the first encounter with my über-SSSSD... Why plan to fight the war your way? The empire is to big and to good at blowing stuff up for that. Killing Palpatine is the only realistic way for the Fed to survive. You think that is cheating, sorry.

"Where are you taking Genesis?"
"To Corusant."
"Corusant, wait. That does not compute..."

The feds had already nearly 100 years of time between the TOS era movies and the DS9/Voy era, and the genesis technology was still not re-discovered.
Considering that serious unsolvable flaws were discovered are you sure they even tried? SF was waaay to pacifistic to develop it as a weapon like the Klingon ambassador accused them of doing but which is a far more realistic use of the thing. Forget about generating Gaias focus on the destructive part - can we rediscover that much then we have a good weapon. And the destructive part is the easy half! Genocide not Genesis!

Therefore, we must assume it is completely lost, ie another 100 years of time for research won't magically bring it back.
Not magicaly no, we leave that stuff to the Sith witch doctors.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 06:50am

Another thing:
killing the emperor would normally destabilize the Empire.
But not if you destroy an entire planet along with it, which is, after all, the galactic capitol. Such a genocidal action will unite the galaxy, and even the people who doubted if it is right to invade the federation will now support the Empire's conquest. I doubt that after the Imperial campaign of revenge
any planet in the alpha quadrant will be left inhabitable.
After the 'foe from the other galaxy' is now eleminated, the Empire will eventually self-destruct in a similar manner like after ROJ.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-08-06 07:46am

So you have heard of it. How much lost is it? Was every file even remotely connected to the project deleted?

Correct. When Khan was coming for it they flushed all the memory banks onboard the research station, all they have left of Genesis now is the demonstration video which contains ZERO information on how to actually construct the thing.

It is the very definition of lost tech.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-08-06 09:35am

If I was in charge of the Federation, I'd do the following:

1. Scrap the Prime Directive. I think that the moral cowardice of the Prime Directive is the prime reason why the pact between the Klingon Empire and the Federation has been so fragile.... think about it, would you ally with a nation which doesn't care about issues not directly connected to its own matters..... and that's BEFORE we add the Klingons' hatred towards cowardice....

If we have scrapped all directives oozing moral cowardice, it's possible that the Klingons will like it. Anyway, nobody ever gets punished for breaking the Prime Directive.

(I have always seen the Prime Directive as why the Klingon-Federal alliance has been so fragile... even the Ferengi, whom everybody despise for their lack of morals, utterly loathe the Prime Directive and describe it as "hew-marn madness" - and with Ferengi expressing their disgust over Federal moral cowardice, it is not unlikely that many Klingons have similar attitudes towards the Prime Directive.)

2. Redesign all starship classes manufactured so they can take more than a few hits without exploding, and scrap luxuries such as holo-decks and "living room" quarters.

3. Start using Klingon-made cloaking devices, regardless what those stupid Romulans say.

4. Establish groud armies.

5. Stopping obstructing the trading activities of the Ferengi Alliance. Having seen how powerful Ferengi warships are (Peak Performance and other incidents), we can only conclude that the Ferengi would be good allies.

6. Now, the Feds would still have a small chance of defeating the Empire, but significantly larger than that in DS9 - and with the support of both the Ferengi Alliance and the Klingon Empire, we have some good back-up..... we just have the additional problems posed by a Romulan Star Empire enraged by Federal employment of cloaking devices....

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 09:58am

I wouldn't exactly call it a chance of defeating the Empire. The odds of a fed victory are, even with 100 years time to develop, near to zero.
But they could drive their tech so far that they'll be able to actually inflict some casualties (taking down Nebulon Bs and other small stuff, perhaps even a VSD).[/quote]

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 11:05am

But not if you destroy an entire planet along with it, which is, after all, the galactic capitol.
I would prefere to use a smaller world but...

Such a genocidal action will unite the galaxy, and even the people who doubted if it is right to invade the federation will now support the Empire's conquest.
Possibly, blowing up worlds is something the Empire itself is into afterall so the shock effect is somewhat blunted. Remember Alderaan, the Empire bragged about that one? With the Empire victorious at Endor Ackbar's people had better emigrate in a hurry! The people best equipped to start a holy war of vengeance are the ones least likely to do so. The Moffs, Governors and Admirals will be to busy ploting for the throne.

Correct. When Khan was coming for it they flushed all the memory banks onboard the research station, all they have left of Genesis now is the demonstration video which contains ZERO information on how to actually construct the thing.
Yeah that was the only copies. Nothing survived in the Genesis cave, SF HQ hadn't recived any reports about what was going on. All the scientific theories that caused the project to be started was forgotten and the information collected from the actual test was missplaced.

Sorry but I don't buy that the Genesis project would be impossible to recreate with a centurys additional technical development and almost a centurys project time available and an infinetly high priority.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 11:11am

now assuming you recreate it and destroy coruscant. Now the Empire won't self-destruct immediately because:
the destruction of the galactic capitol is something which will cause everyone in the galaxy to think a bit. The imperial warlords will lay their differencies aside and crush the federation with all their might. Afterwards, the empire might self-destruct. After all, it' a foe from another galaxy.
It's just like when, say, America, for example, goes to war with another country: in the inside, there is always a struggle for power, but when up against a foe from the outside, they unite despite their differencies. After they've defeated the foe, they resume fighting each other.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 11:22am

I wouldn't exactly call it a chance of defeating the Empire. The odds of a fed victory are, even with 100 years time to develop, near to zero.
The chance of a military victory would be almost zero. A few things could improve the odds somewhat but not much. The only thing that can defeat the Empire is it's goverment structure, an Empire without a clear line of succession = eventual civil war. The Feds hope of survival is to start that civil war.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 11:25am

Even if they managed to initiate that civil war, they would most likely not see the beginning for the above reasons (' we must unite against the foes from the other galaxy' etc.).
Or, the Imperial commander whose duty is the conquest would after the Emperor's death perhaps close the wormhole and simply build up his own Empire in the ST galaxy.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-06 11:26am

time travel isn't completely useless.
Send an industrial complex back in time, have them jump to an alternate universe and start building. 5 minutes after sending the expedition, turn on the homing device that the expedition was given the frequency of. Integrate the technology they have developed and repeat as necessary. Since their is no change to the universe of origin until after the time travel was initiated, the plan should work. We know from the mirror universe episodes of DS9 that they can reliably travel to alternate universes that they are aware of.
Oh, and have a transporter "accident" create a duplicate of Data, take the double apart to learn to make more of him, and mass produce him to man your starships.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-06 11:39am

Time travel is completely useless, unless you can beat the overwhemlming odds. As seen in TNG "Parallels" there is an infinate number of alternate timelines. Even if they send someone back in time they would have to choose from an infinate number of parallel universes. Your beacon idea won't work because we have never seen anyone in all of Trek actually control which timeline they enter when they time travel. Even if the Feds somehow even develop this beacon that can send its signal through diffrent universes they'll be unable to follow it, with their current control on time travel.

Furthermore I don't understand how sending a shi back fo r5 minutes will accomplish anything, I always thought five minutes was five minutes no matter which universe you were in. Also, depending on how advanced this new "future tech" is, they may be unable to integrate it with their current, primitive tech. Similar if the Feds captured an ISD, it would be unlikley they could incorporate any of its technologies onto any of their ships.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 11:39am

now assuming you recreate it and destroy coruscant. Now the Empire won't self-destruct immediately because:
It did fall appart rather quickly in RoTJ, but the situation was somewhat different.

the destruction of the galactic capitol is something which will cause everyone in the galaxy to think a bit.
Hopefully where the various warlords will build their new capitol:-)

The imperial warlords will lay their differencies aside and crush the federation with all their might.
Possibly, but that is what would happen anyway so...

Afterwards, the empire might self-destruct. After all, it' a foe from another galaxy.
Afterwards, when? Are the Imps to BDZ the entire AQ? Thanks to Q's warning the Fed is nolonger the over centralized bullseye it was before. It's far more likely that after a suitable "vengeance rampage" the Imps will head home to where the real prize is.

It's just like when, say, America, for example, goes to war with another country: in the inside, there is always a struggle for power, but when up against a foe from the outside, they unite despite their differencies.
Much of the reaction will depend on the support of the war effort by the general population in the Empire. The US is one of the most stabile states in the world with very much care placed on orderly succession. The Empire has one of the most unstable form of goverment there is, an Emperor without heirs.

After they've defeated the foe, they resume fighting each other.
No, if they don't start fighting immediatly then they will start fighting once victory seems certain.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 11:46am

Are the Imps to BDZ the entire AQ?

Seems somewhat in character for them. But probably they'd only destroy the major worlds.

It's far more likely that after a suitable "vengeance rampage" the Imps will head home to where the real prize is.

Yep. But a vengeance rampage suitable for the destruction of the galactic capitol planet will certainly not be of small scale.

And then there's still my point that the Imperial commander who was to conquer the Alpha Quad will do that to get his own small Empire.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-06 11:51am

Afterwards, the empire might self-destruct. After all, it' a foe from another galaxy.
Afterwards, when? Are the Imps to BDZ the entire AQ? Thanks to Q's warning the Fed is nolonger the over centralized bullseye it was before. It's far more likely that after a suitable "vengeance rampage" the Imps will head home to where the real prize is. [/quote]

No matter how over-centralized or not over-centralized you are, planets are planets. There not going anywhere and if someone wants to BDZ em in current Trek or a thousand years later theres nothing nobody can do about it.

It's just like when, say, America, for example, goes to war with another country: in the inside, there is always a struggle for power, but when up against a foe from the outside, they unite despite their differencies.
Much of the reaction will depend on the support of the war effort by the general population in the Empire. The US is one of the most stabile states in the world with very much care placed on orderly succession. The Empire has one of the most unstable form of goverment there is, an Emperor without heirs. [/quote]

The support of the general population of the Empire will be total if indeed the Feds Genesized (TM) Coruscant. Its like if China nuked Washignton D.C., everybody would be ready to take up arms against them. And the Emperor did hav ean heir, Sate Pestage. But the other Imperials (Ysane Isard was one of them) took his leadership away, and plotted for the throne.
[/i]

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-08-06 01:18pm

Time travel is completely useless
Im not convinced of that. Perhaps as a way of altering the past it would be useless but as a mean to explore the future it might be very useful. Then again perhaps I have read to much Asimov.

Or, the Imperial commander whose duty is the conquest would after the Emperor's death perhaps close the wormhole and simply build up his own Empire in the ST galaxy.
The elimination of 95% of the Imperial military might would hardly be considered a defeat. Especially since we would avoid excessive retaliation.

Yep. But a vengeance rampage suitable for the destruction of the galactic capitol planet will certainly not be of small scale.
No it wouldn't. Naturally we would not take credit for it but an Imperial temper tantrum is probably unavoidable.

Its like if China nuked Washignton D.C., everybody would be ready to take up arms against them.
No it would be the reverse, and that reaction is far less predictable.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-06 03:17pm

The elimination of 95% of the Imperial military might would hardly be considered a defeat. Especially since we would avoid excessive retaliation

The imperial commander has of course a large fleet at his disposal. And even with 100 years of time the federation can't hope to be able to defeat the Empire in direct combat. The federation will be crushed.

Oh and btw time travel is disallowed since it switches time lines in any case.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-06 03:21pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:
Are the Imps to BDZ the entire AQ?
Seems somewhat in character for them. But probably they'd only destroy the major worlds.
It's far more likely that after a suitable "vengeance rampage" the Imps will head home to where the real prize is.
Yep. But a vengeance rampage suitable for the destruction of the galactic capitol planet will certainly not be of small scale.

And then there's still my point that the Imperial commander who was to conquer the Alpha Quad will do that to get his own small Empire.

Precisely. Besides, why would the said commander go back to the SW galaxy, when there's a whole galaxy of backwater planets, just waiting to be conquered by a strong enough power (say, him)?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-08 02:19pm

did you competely miss the mirror universe episodes of DS9?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-10 04:26am

as in, jumping back and forth between them without even worrying about ending up in the wrong universe?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-08-22 08:43pm

You really should be more fair to the ST cause -- 100 measly years??? The Star Wars universe has had hyperdrive technology for 25,000 years, and their industrial capacity is of jaw-dropping proportions. The Empire can hurl thousands of massive warships and many millions of ground troops against the few hundred Fed worlds without affecting the overall readiness of the Imperial armed forces to conduct all their METL tasks with high proficiency. Furthermore, the Empire is not hindered by a democracy, in which public opinion all but drives military decisions.

My recommended course of action is for the Federation to determine when and where an Imperial invasion fleet will be spearheaded. Then they should offer immediate and unconditional surrender to the Empire.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-22 09:52pm

jegs2 wrote:You really should be more fair to the ST cause

Why?

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 10:38pm

100 years is a massive head start.
Nobody in the history of anything has had a 100 year warning of an attack.