The Galactic Empire vs the Vong Invasion...

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-22 08:49pm

SirNitram wrote:How about the fact the one time the Empire's forces have engaged them, they've been ripped multiple new assholes?

I must have misunderstood. I though theDarkling meant "respect" as in the respect between equals, not the respect between to enemies that hate each other.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-22 08:51pm

As an aside, I notice my spelling has grown atrocious. I've been up too late again; I'm going to bed.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-08-22 09:04pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:And isn't this GE vs Vong thing supposed to be pure Star Wars. Where's the Trek part in this?

Hm. Good point. Thread moved.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 10:15pm

Hello, I'm new here. I've only read about half of the NJO series (reading quickly, and enjoying it, though), so I may not be qualified to comment on this issue, but I would like to anyway.

If the Empire can't even defeat the Rebel Alliance of "politically correct farmboys," then how the hell can it possibly defend itself against the far more aggressive, far more numerous, and far better armed Yuuzhan Vong? Don't say the Empire lost because it refused to take the Rebellion seriously; that's a cop-out. If the Empire can easily defeat the Yuuzhan Vong, then it should have been able to absolutely wipe the floor with the Rebel Alliance, a backwater power by comparison.

Also, I think it's too early to say that the message of the NJO series is that the Empire should have remained in place to deal with the Vong invasion. If this were so the authors of the NJO would have in fact burned George Lucas's story of good and evil to the ground and pissed on the ashes.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 10:24pm

Durran Korr wrote:Hello, I'm new here. I've only read about half of the NJO series (reading quickly, and enjoying it, though), so I may not be qualified to comment on this issue, but I would like to anyway.

If the Empire can't even defeat the Rebel Alliance of "politically correct farmboys," then how the hell can it possibly defend itself against the far more aggressive, far more numerous, and far better armed Yuuzhan Vong? Don't say the Empire lost because it refused to take the Rebellion seriously; that's a cop-out. If the Empire can easily defeat the Yuuzhan Vong, then it should have been able to absolutely wipe the floor with the Rebel Alliance, a backwater power by comparison.

That's a flawed argument most often used by Trekkies to say that the Federation would smash the Empire.
It doesn't work, there were several unique circumstances going on, most due to Palpatine's own blunders.
Had he not led the Rebels to the uncompleted Death Star because of his obsession with the Skywalkers, the Rebels would've been wiped out.
The Rebellion didn't win, the Empire tore itself apart without a leader, there's a big difference.

Also, I think it's too early to say that the message of the NJO series is that the Empire should have remained in place to deal with the Vong invasion. If this were so the authors of the NJO would have in fact burned George Lucas's story of good and evil to the ground and pissed on the ashes.

Too early? The NR is toast, all the evidence says the Empire would've won where the NR lost. It's not as simple as good vs. evil, and I don't think it ever was.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 10:39pm

That's a flawed argument most often used by Trekkies to say that the Federation would smash the Empire.
It doesn't work, there were several unique circumstances going on, most due to Palpatine's own blunders.
Had he not led the Rebels to the uncompleted Death Star because of his obsession with the Skywalkers, the Rebels would've been wiped out.
The Rebellion didn't win, the Empire tore itself apart without a leader, there's a big difference.

The Yuuzhan Vong have shown themselves to be exceptionally skilled at stealth; if a Yuuzhan Vong agent can singlehandedly take over a planet as Yomin Carr did in Vector Prime, surely he can infiltrate deep into the Empire and assassinate Palpatine, or release deadly poison in his presence as Elan attempted to do to Han Solo, leaving the Empire in a state of confusion and thus easier to conquer.

Too early? The NR is toast, all the evidence says the Empire would've won where the NR lost. It's not as simple as good vs. evil, and I don't think it ever was.

But it is as simple as good and evil, at least with the classic trilogy. What part of "evil galactic Empire" do you not understand: "evil," "galactic," or "Empire"?

Also, the talk about the Yuuzhan Vong not being able to stand up against the Empire comes from Nom Anor and Vergere, both YZ agents. They may be doing this to weaken and hurt Jacen Solo, making him more willing to accept the Vong way of life.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 10:47pm

Durran Korr wrote:
That's a flawed argument most often used by Trekkies to say that the Federation would smash the Empire.
It doesn't work, there were several unique circumstances going on, most due to Palpatine's own blunders.
Had he not led the Rebels to the uncompleted Death Star because of his obsession with the Skywalkers, the Rebels would've been wiped out.
The Rebellion didn't win, the Empire tore itself apart without a leader, there's a big difference.
The Yuuzhan Vong have shown themselves to be exceptionally skilled at stealth; if a Yuuzhan Vong agent can singlehandedly take over a planet as Yomin Carr did in Vector Prime, surely he can infiltrate deep into the Empire and assassinate Palpatine, or release deadly poison in his presence as Elan attempted to do to Han Solo, leaving the Empire in a state of confusion and thus easier to conquer.

And they're going to get passed heavily patroled Imperial space, through to Coruscant, passed all of Palpatine's elite guards and Palpatine's ability to foresee these things how?

Too early? The NR is toast, all the evidence says the Empire would've won where the NR lost. It's not as simple as good vs. evil, and I don't think it ever was.

But it is as simple as good and evil, at least with the classic trilogy. What part of "evil galactic Empire" do you not understand: "evil," "galactic," or "Empire"?[/quote]

The part in the prequal trilogy that showed that the Old Republic wasn't really much better, the part that good or evil is just too simple.

Also, the talk about the Yuuzhan Vong not being able to stand up against the Empire comes from Nom Anor and Vergere, both YZ agents. They may be doing this to weaken and hurt Jacen Solo, making him more willing to accept the Vong way of life.

Why would endorsing the Empire do that?
The Empire was totalitarian, but it was vastly different from the Vong way of life, the Vong themselves would have no reason to admit that heathens could beat them unless it were true.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-22 10:52pm

Durran Korr wrote:Hello, I'm new here. I've only read about half of the NJO series (reading quickly, and enjoying it, though), so I may not be qualified to comment on this issue, but I would like to anyway.

Fine.

If the Empire can't even defeat the Rebel Alliance of "politically correct farmboys," then how the hell can it possibly defend itself against the far more aggressive, far more numerous, and far better armed Yuuzhan Vong?

More aggressive? Yes. More numerous? If you mean then the Alliance was, I agree. IF you mean then the Empire was, that is unclear. Better Armed? NO. Vong tech has been consistently shown to be weaker then standard tech, it is just that they keep popping up with new bits of it and new uses for it. Even back to Vector Prime there are quotes about how Vong plasma casters are weaker then laser cannons, and the inferiority of their hulls has been consistent. Plus the ease with which their sensors are fooled is laughable. Note that with the exception of the Battle of Coruscant, the Republic has won every major engagement since Duros. They destroyed a major base at Yavin 4, took out their shipyard at Seripandal, beat them back at Yag'Dul, broke their blockade in the Corellian Sector, destroyed 1000 ships (2 fleets worth) at Black Bantha, beat the snot out of them at the Battle of Hapes, and utterly wiped out a whole Domain and a forward base at Borealis. Even Coruscant was impressive, as they managed to take out 8 Attack groups and 3 fleets wotrh of ships in that engagement (judging by the number of Yammosks killed). Now that the Senate is out of the picture, competent rebels are in charge, and the Jedi are under unified leadership, the Vong are beginning to discover coming to this galaxy and starting something might have been a bad idea. And now Hapes is back in the war on the side of the Republic, the Chiss are being pulled in by Jag, and judging from the exerpt in Traitor, the Empire is getting back in the game. Things are not looking up for the Vong.

Don't say the Empire lost because it refused to take the Rebellion seriously; that's a cop-out.

No, the Empire died because it collapsed upon itself after the death of the Emperor. It could have regrouped and smashed the Rebels right after Endor with ease.

If the Empire can easily defeat the Yuuzhan Vong, then it should have been able to absolutely wipe the floor with the Rebel Alliance, a backwater power by comparison.

Funny, up until Endor they were wiping the floor with the Rebels.

Also, I think it's too early to say that the message of the NJO series is that the Empire should have remained in place to deal with the Vong invasion. If this were so the authors of the NJO would have in fact burned George Lucas's story of good and evil to the ground and pissed on the ashes.

The overall story of the NJO has been the same throughout: The Jedi dealing with the question of how to act in a hostile situation and exactly what is the nature of the Force.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-22 10:55pm

Durran Korr wrote: The Yuuzhan Vong have shown themselves to be exceptionally skilled at stealth; if a Yuuzhan Vong agent can singlehandedly take over a planet as Yomin Carr did in Vector Prime, surely he can infiltrate deep into the Empire and assassinate Palpatine, or release deadly poison in his presence as Elan attempted to do to Han Solo, leaving the Empire in a state of confusion and thus easier to conquer.

There were only 8 othert people on that planet with Carr, that is not very impressive. And Elan was halted, so bad example.

Also, the talk about the Yuuzhan Vong not being able to stand up against the Empire comes from Nom Anor and Vergere, both YZ agents. They may be doing this to weaken and hurt Jacen Solo, making him more willing to accept the Vong way of life.

Except that it was during a conference with Tsavong Lah, with Jacen nowhere around.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 11:10pm

And they're going to get passed heavily patroled Imperial space, through to Coruscant, passed all of Palpatine's elite guards and Palpatine's ability to foresee these things how?

Yuuzhan Vong have been able to blend in extremely well using ooglith masquers, so getting to Coruscant would not be much trouble. Also, Palpatine's ability to see the future appears to come from his strength with the Dark Side of the force; it is not unreasonable to assume that he would be unable to predict a Vong assasination attempt, given their being outside of the Force (or at least on a different level of it).

The part in the prequal trilogy that showed that the Old Republic wasn't really much better, the part that good or evil is just too simple.

True, the Old Republic is not perfect, but remember it has presided over hundreds of years of galactic peace and harmony. This all starts to go sour when the evil, diabolical Sith Lord creates conflicts and sets it up to fall. Even here, the Republic functions rather well; the Naboo incident resolved itself without ANY official assistance from the Republic. Palpatine talks a great deal of the corruption and inefficiency of the Republic in Episode I, but we must remember that he is a LIAR who wants to see the Republic destroyed for his own selfish self-gratification. Nothing he says can be trusted.

The Empire was totalitarian, but it was vastly different from the Vong way of life, the Vong themselves would have no reason to admit that heathens could beat them unless it were true.

Let's see. The Empire cruises around space, giving people two options 1) Accept our rule, and our way of life, or 2) be destroyed and/or subjugated. Sounds a lot like the Vong to me. Granted, the Empire is far less extreme than the Vong, but subjugation is subjugation.

If the Empire is not the evil galactic Empire of George Lucas's invention, and it really is better than both of the Republics, then Star Wars is nothing more than Star Trek for imperialist, centralist saber-rattlers. It is concurrent with the ridiculous Trekkie fantasy that a government can be extraordinarily powerful and active without also being extraordinarily oppressive and brutal.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-22 11:18pm

Durran Korr wrote:Yuuzhan Vong have been able to blend in extremely well using ooglith masquers, so getting to Coruscant would not be much trouble. Also, Palpatine's ability to see the future appears to come from his strength with the Dark Side of the force; it is not unreasonable to assume that he would be unable to predict a Vong assasination attempt, given their being outside of the Force (or at least on a different level of it).

There is also the quite impressive Imperial Intellegence looking for stuff like that. And even then, they have to get rid of Vader, and Byss if they want to be successful or else Vader will simply assume control without anyone breaking away or the clone will return post haste and wipe them out.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 11:23pm

Durran Korr wrote:
And they're going to get passed heavily patroled Imperial space, through to Coruscant, passed all of Palpatine's elite guards and Palpatine's ability to foresee these things how?
Yuuzhan Vong have been able to blend in extremely well using ooglith masquers, so getting to Coruscant would not be much trouble.

Even though the Empire was many times more efficient at exposing such spies..

lso, Palpatine's ability to see the future appears to come from his strength with the Dark Side of the force; it is not unreasonable to assume that he would be unable to predict a Vong assasination attempt, given their being outside of the Force (or at least on a different level of it).

Who cares if he couldn't foresee them, he'd certainly foresee what would happen to himself (he knew Vader would try to kill him for instance, he misinterpreted how).

The part in the prequal trilogy that showed that the Old Republic wasn't really much better, the part that good or evil is just too simple.

True, the Old Republic is not perfect, but remember it has presided over hundreds of years of galactic peace and harmony. This all starts to go sour when the evil, diabolical Sith Lord creates conflicts and sets it up to fall. Even here, the Republic functions rather well; the Naboo incident resolved itself without ANY official assistance from the Republic. [/quote]

That one of the Republic's members got ITSELF out of trouble through sheer luck without the assistance of the disfunctional Republic is proof to you that it functions WELL?
And Palpatine could never had set it up to fall if the Republic had not already been facing crippling problems, he merely steered them to his advantage.

Palpatine talks a great deal of the corruption and inefficiency of the Republic in Episode I, but we must remember that he is a LIAR who wants to see the Republic destroyed for his own selfish self-gratification. Nothing he says can be trusted.

What I see can be trusted.
The Republic FAILED to do anything about the Trade Federation blockade, they FAILED to keep corruption out, it's corruption and inefficiency gave Palpatine all the power he needed.

The Empire was totalitarian, but it was vastly different from the Vong way of life, the Vong themselves would have no reason to admit that heathens could beat them unless it were true.

Let's see. The Empire cruises around space, giving people two options 1) Accept our rule, and our way of life, or 2) be destroyed and/or subjugated. Sounds a lot like the Vong to me. Granted, the Empire is far less extreme than the Vong, but subjugation is subjugation. [/quote]

The Vong are fanatics on a completley different level to the Empire, totalitarianism is not enough common ground for the Vong to use the Empire as an example of the right government.

If the Empire is not the evil galactic Empire of George Lucas's invention, and it really is better than both of the Republics, then Star Wars is nothing more than Star Trek for imperialist, centralist saber-rattlers. It is concurrent with the ridiculous Trekkie fantasy that a government can be extraordinarily powerful and active without also being extraordinarily oppressive and brutal.

That entirely depends on your point of view, some view the Empire as the only way to really stably rule and protect an entire galaxy, some don't, but if the point of NJO is that, it's not necisarrily wrong.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 11:24pm

Except that it was during a conference with Tsavong Lah, with Jacen nowhere around.

Well, my foot tastes like crap. I retract that statement.

More aggressive? Yes. More numerous? If you mean then the Alliance was, I agree. IF you mean then the Empire was, that is unclear. Better Armed? NO. Vong tech has been consistently shown to be weaker then standard tech, it is just that they keep popping up with new bits of it and new uses for it. Even back to Vector Prime there are quotes about how Vong plasma casters are weaker then laser cannons, and the inferiority of their hulls has been consistent. Plus the ease with which their sensors are fooled is laughable. Note that with the exception of the Battle of Coruscant, the Republic has won every major engagement since Duros. They destroyed a major base at Yavin 4, took out their shipyard at Seripandal, beat them back at Yag'Dul, broke their blockade in the Corellian Sector, destroyed 1000 ships (2 fleets worth) at Black Bantha, beat the snot out of them at the Battle of Hapes, and utterly wiped out a whole Domain and a forward base at Borealis. Even Coruscant was impressive, as they managed to take out 8 Attack groups and 3 fleets wotrh of ships in that engagement (judging by the number of Yammosks killed). Now that the Senate is out of the picture, competent rebels are in charge, and the Jedi are under unified leadership, the Vong are beginning to discover coming to this galaxy and starting something might have been a bad idea. And now Hapes is back in the war on the side of the Republic, the Chiss are being pulled in by Jag, and judging from the exerpt in Traitor, the Empire is getting back in the game. Things are not looking up for the Vong.

That says more about moronic, incompetent politicians like Borsk Fey'lya than it does about the strength/weakness of the Republic. You just made a pretty good case for the Republic, so why do people continue to say that the only way the invasion could have been halted would have been to allow an evil, tyrannical government to stay in power?

Yes, the Republic, allied with the Remnant against a common threat, probably could have successfully halted the invasion if it were not for the idiocy of the Borsk Fey'lyas of the Republic. So why make a case for the Empire?

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 11:27pm

Durran Korr wrote:Yes, the Republic, allied with the Remnant against a common threat, probably could have successfully halted the invasion if it were not for the idiocy of the Borsk Fey'lyas of the Republic. So why make a case for the Empire?

Maybe because the Empire would not have or tolerate such moronically brain dead politicians as he.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-22 11:28pm

Durran Korr wrote: That says more about moronic, incompetent politicians like Borsk Fey'lya than it does about the strength/weakness of the Republic. You just made a pretty good case for the Republic, so why do people continue to say that the only way the invasion could have been halted would have been to allow an evil, tyrannical government to stay in power?

Yes, the Republic, allied with the Remnant against a common threat, probably could have successfully halted the invasion if it were not for the idiocy of the Borsk Fey'lyas of the Republic. So why make a case for the Empire?

They are making the case that the Empire would have been much more effective in repulsing the invasion, not that that is the only way to win.

And I suggest anyone who wants to debate this a little further read the exerpt from Destiny's Way, where an Imperial agent and Han are discussing what the Empire would have done. Quite humerous, but true.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 11:40pm

That one of the Republic's members got ITSELF out of trouble through sheer luck without the assistance of the disfunctional Republic is proof to you that it functions WELL?
And Palpatine could never had set it up to fall if the Republic had not already been facing crippling problems, he merely steered them to his advantage.

Luck? The victory at Naboo was not luck; Amidala's capturing of the Viceroy was a well-thought out plan. Obi-Wan beat Darth Maul because he was more clever and quicker. Anakin's victory is irrelevant; the battle of Naboo was over when Darth Maul was killed and the Viceroy was captured.

What I see can be trusted.
The Republic FAILED to do anything about the Trade Federation blockade, they FAILED to keep corruption out, it's corruption and inefficiency gave Palpatine all the power he needed.

The Trade Federation would not have invaded Naboo had the Sith Lord not approached them. And remember, the TradeFed invaded Naboo in response to taxes that Palpatine/Sidious probably put in place himself. It would not have done so otherwise, given its presumbably nonviolent history. This is a crisis of Sidious's invention. Dooku said in Episode II that Sidious had a number of Senators under his influence; perhaps he used this influence to prevent the Republic from taking action.

That entirely depends on your point of view, some view the Empire as the only way to really stably rule and protect an entire galaxy, some don't, but if the point of NJO is that, it's not necisarrily wrong.

Like I said, the Republic has been in existence for hundreds of years and appears to have maintained great stability. How do you reconcile these hundreds of years of stability with the few decades of instability that is covered by Star Wars?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-22 11:47pm

They are making the case that the Empire would have been much more effective in repulsing the invasion, not that that is the only way to win.

Possibly more effective - possibly. But who gives a shit how successful the Empire is at repelling intruders if it oppresses it's citizens into the ground at home? The Soviet Union, for example, was able to successfully expel the Nazi invaders, but that doesn't change the fact that it was the most horrible, oppressive regime in the history of mankind.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 11:49pm

Durran Korr wrote:
That one of the Republic's members got ITSELF out of trouble through sheer luck without the assistance of the disfunctional Republic is proof to you that it functions WELL?
And Palpatine could never had set it up to fall if the Republic had not already been facing crippling problems, he merely steered them to his advantage.
Luck? The victory at Naboo was not luck; Amidala's capturing of the Viceroy was a well-thought out plan. Obi-Wan beat Darth Maul because he was more clever and quicker. Anakin's victory is irrelevant; the battle of Naboo was over when Darth Maul was killed and the Viceroy was captured.

Firstly, Anakin's victory was vital, otherwise the droid army woul've crushed them.
Secobdly, you're evading the point, which is that Naboo had to fend for itself despite being a member of the Republic.

What I see can be trusted.
The Republic FAILED to do anything about the Trade Federation blockade, they FAILED to keep corruption out, it's corruption and inefficiency gave Palpatine all the power he needed.

The Trade Federation would not have invaded Naboo had the Sith Lord not approached them. And remember, the TradeFed invaded Naboo in response to taxes that Palpatine/Sidious probably put in place himself. It would not have done so otherwise, given its presumbably nonviolent history. This is a crisis of Sidious's invention. Dooku said in Episode II that Sidious had a number of Senators under his influence; perhaps he used this influence to prevent the Republic from taking action.[/quote]

Irrelevant! The fact that he could do this was proof of corruption!

That entirely depends on your point of view, some view the Empire as the only way to really stably rule and protect an entire galaxy, some don't, but if the point of NJO is that, it's not necisarrily wrong.

Like I said, the Republic has been in existence for hundreds of years and appears to have maintained great stability. How do you reconcile these hundreds of years of stability with the few decades of instability that is covered by Star Wars?[/quote]

Take note that the only instability caused in the movies was caused by the Rebels themselves..

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-22 11:54pm

Durran Korr wrote:
They are making the case that the Empire would have been much more effective in repulsing the invasion, not that that is the only way to win.
Possibly more effective - possibly. But who gives a shit how successful the Empire is at repelling intruders if it oppresses it's citizens into the ground at home? The Soviet Union, for example, was able to successfully expel the Nazi invaders, but that doesn't change the fact that it was the most horrible, oppressive regime in the history of mankind.

Because they maintained peace and order where corruption and crime reigned before.
The NR simply could not protect itself, when the primary duty of a government is to protect it's citizens.
Furthermore the average Imperial citizen not engaged in acts of Rebellion was not affected, and most of the opression occured BECAUSE of the Rebel terrorism.
Maybe the Empire wasn't ideal and moral, but it worked and would've endured what lay ahead, had the Rebellion not happened billions of lives would've been spared and that is concrete fact so spare me your self-righteousness.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-23 12:03am

Firstly, Anakin's victory was vital, otherwise the droid army woul've crushed them.
Secobdly, you're evading the point, which is that Naboo had to fend for itself despite being a member of the Republic.

No, it wasn't; Nute Gunray is a coward and if the Naboo security forces threatened his life, he would comply with their demands. And Naboo may be in fact, a rare case, the exception, not the rule.

Irrelevant! The fact that he could do this was proof of corruption!

Of course the Old Republic had some corruption. Is that justification for the creation of a massive, oppressive superstate? No. There are loads of corrupt politicians entrenched within the U.S. government. Doesn't mean that the system can only be repaired by doing away the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Take note that the only instability caused in the movies was caused by the Rebels themselves..

If the Empire had simply not oppressed and murdered a number of it's citizens, the Rebels wouldn't have needed to cause this instability. A government that considers stability a higher priority than freedom will wind up with neither.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-23 12:14am

Durran Korr wrote:
Firstly, Anakin's victory was vital, otherwise the droid army woul've crushed them.
Secobdly, you're evading the point, which is that Naboo had to fend for itself despite being a member of the Republic.

No, it wasn't; Nute Gunray is a coward and if the Naboo security forces threatened his life, he would comply with their demands.
Who knows? Perhaps he'd just play along until the army came up behind and shot them in the ass, in any case, this is still beside the point.

And Naboo may be in fact, a rare case, the exception, not the rule.
That this kind of thing happened AT ALL is bad enough.
If a U.S. state was being invaded and Washington sat on it's hands and did nothing, it would be an outrage.

Irrelevant! The fact that he could do this was proof of corruption!
Of course the Old Republic had some corruption. Is that justification for the creation of a massive, oppressive superstate? No. There are loads of corrupt politicians entrenched within the U.S. government. Doesn't mean that the system can only be repaired by doing away the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
No, but enough corruption could pave the way for a totalitarian to get in and take control, and it would be the systems own fault.
(If a mo-ron like Dubya can be President, anyone with the right connections can)

Take note that the only instability caused in the movies was caused by the Rebels themselves..
If the Empire had simply not oppressed and murdered a number of it's citizens, the Rebels wouldn't have needed to cause this instability. A government that considers stability a higher priority than freedom will wind up with neither.

Freedom to do what? Rebel?
The Rebels fought since the Empire was formed, simply because the corrupt Senators couldn't stand seeing their power whittle away, it had nothing to do with killings.
And Imperial citizens were largley free under their capitalist system anyway.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-23 12:18am

Durran Korr wrote: Luck? The victory at Naboo was not luck; Amidala's capturing of the Viceroy was a well-thought out plan. Obi-Wan beat Darth Maul because he was more clever and quicker. Anakin's victory is irrelevant; the battle of Naboo was over when Darth Maul was killed and the Viceroy was captured.

If the Viceroy had been more careful and the decoy not came by at just the right time or if they had even bothered to use proper restraints, Amidala would have been forced to signed the treaty (if not, just kill her and forge the documents), and the other two victories would be voided. If Darth Maul didn't toy with Obi-Wan, Maul would have easily defeat Amidala's teams and still brought victory for the Viceroy. If the Droid Control Ship had not been destroyed, the Droid Army would have captured all the Gungans and retaken the Palace. The fact is, if they hadn't won all three battles, they couldn't have truly won.

The Trade Federation would not have invaded Naboo had the Sith Lord not approached them. And remember, the TradeFed invaded Naboo in response to taxes that Palpatine/Sidious probably put in place himself. It would not have done so otherwise, given its presumbably nonviolent history. This is a crisis of Sidious's invention. Dooku said in Episode II that Sidious had a number of Senators under his influence; perhaps he used this influence to prevent the Republic from taking action.

It is a galactic senate, with thousands of representatives. Had most of those politicians not considered doing what was done, how can you explain they were so easily swayed without someone noticing something big was going on? The fact is, if the NR is anything to go by, the whole thing was already starting to collapse. And if the Trade Federation were really nonviolent and if not for Palpy's manipulation, how did they convert so many of their freighters into warships and have such large armies without someone noticing?

Like I said, the Republic has been in existence for hundreds of years and appears to have maintained great stability. How do you reconcile these hundreds of years of stability with the few decades of instability that is covered by Star Wars?

Perhaps everything had become routined? Because at the first sign of trouble and/or the pollies losing some of their power/money, everything just went down the drain (both OR and NR). There had also been many generations long interplanetary conflicts that the Empire had settled (despite inability of even the Jedi to do the same), but broke out again under ineffectiveness in the NR.

And if you take note of some of the EU literature, there are in fact many worlds (even well before the YV conflict) who much rather the Empire's rule, and there was even suppose to be an non-human dominant world somewhere that had worked perfectly as self-governing with minimum Imperial overseen.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-23 12:21am

Because they maintained peace and order where corruption and crime reigned before.

Peace? Vaporizing hundreds of millions of citizens is peace? Brutally bombing a planet because its citizens engaged in civil disobedience resisted is peace? Enslaving an entire race of sentient beings to build death machines is peace?

The NR simply could not protect itself, when the primary duty of a government is to protect it's citizens.
Furthermore the average Imperial citizen not engaged in acts of Rebellion was not affected, and most of the opression occured BECAUSE of the Rebel terrorism.

So the Empire could have vaporized every being suspected of being involved in "Rebel Terrorism" (never mind that pesky due process thing) and it would still have been legitimate?

Maybe the Empire wasn't ideal and moral, but it worked and would've endured what lay ahead, had the Rebellion not happened billions of lives would've been spared and that is concrete fact so spare me your self-righteousness

We only see the billions that died because the Empire wasn't around to save them; we don't see the billions that may have died had the Empire remained in power. And the Empire didn't work. People aren't sheep, and they will not comply with being oppressed.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-08-23 12:25am

And if you take note of some of the EU literature, there are in fact many worlds (even well before the YV conflict) who much rather the Empire's rule, and there was even suppose to be an non-human dominant world somewhere that had worked perfectly as self-governing with minimum Imperial overseen.

Great! Wonderful! Let those worlds live under the government of their choice; just don't force other systems to accept a government they do not want.

Imperial Federation · Post by **Imperial Federation** » 2002-08-23 12:27am

Durran Korr wrote:
Because they maintained peace and order where corruption and crime reigned before.
Peace? Vaporizing hundreds of millions of citizens is peace? Brutally bombing a planet because its citizens engaged in civil disobedience resisted is peace? Enslaving an entire race of sentient beings to build death machines is peace?

Every government does what it thinks best to preserve itself and it's people.
It's not necisarrily right, but that is why everything isn't good or evil, black and white.
Yes, the Empire bombed planets to hell to maintain order, in real-life, the United States obliterated two Japanese cities to establish peace, regardless of the reasons, A-Bombing civilians is an atrocity, by your logic the USA is evil.

The NR simply could not protect itself, when the primary duty of a government is to protect it's citizens.
Furthermore the average Imperial citizen not engaged in acts of Rebellion was not affected, and most of the opression occured BECAUSE of the Rebel terrorism.

So the Empire could have vaporized every being suspected of being involved in "Rebel Terrorism" (never mind that pesky due process thing) and it would still have been legitimate?[/quote]

Do you know what war means?
There's no due process in a god damn civil war.

Maybe the Empire wasn't ideal and moral, but it worked and would've endured what lay ahead, had the Rebellion not happened billions of lives would've been spared and that is concrete fact so spare me your self-righteousness

We only see the billions that died because the Empire wasn't around to save them; we don't see the billions that may have died had the Empire remained in power. And the Empire didn't work. People aren't sheep, and they will not comply with being oppressed.[/quote]

Says who. Totalitarian governments have lasted a lot longer than so-called democracies in real-life.
You cannot say that the Empire didn't work, because it DID, only the lack of a unifying leader broke it apart.