Turkey & Syria shell each other

[mr friendly guy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/turkey-shells- ... 30558.html

Turkey called on the UN Security Council to take "necessary action" to halt Syrian aggression against its territory after cross-border shelling killed five Turkish civilians.
In a sharp escalation of tensions between the neighbors, Turkey shelled Syrian targets in retaliation for the cross-border fire, the first to kill Turkish citizens.
"This is an act of aggression by Syria against Turkey," Ankara's UN Ambassador Ertugrul Apakan on Wednesday said in a letter to Guatemalan Ambassador Gert Rosenthal, who heads the rotating presidency of the 15-nation council.

"It constitutes a flagrant violation of international law as well as a breach of international peace and security. Turkey calls for an immediate end to such unacceptable violations."
The council was expected to issue a statement condemning the Syrian attack, UN diplomats said.
The incident, which Turkey said killed five women and children, was the most serious since June, when Syria shot down a Turkish fighter with the loss of its two-man crew and Ankara took the matter to NATO.

That same month, two Syrians in Turkey were killed by cross-border bullets.
"Turkey kindly requests for the Security Council to take necessary action to put an end to such acts of aggression and to ensure that Syria respects Turkey's sovereignty, territorial integrity and security," Apakan said.

But the council's member countries have been at loggerheads for months over efforts to curtail the brutal war raging in Syria since March 2011.
China and key ally Russia have vetoed three resolutions condemning President Bashar al-Assad's regime for its crackdown on dissent.

Earlier, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu expressed Turkey's "deepest concern" to UN chief Ban Ki-moon.
Davutoglu also spoke with Lakhdar Brahimi, the United Nations and Arab League peace envoy to Libya.
Ban encouraged Davutoglu to "keep open all channels of communication with the Syrian authorities with a view to lessening any tension that could build up as a result of the incident," spokesman Martin Nesirky said.

The UN chief also urged Damascus to "respect fully the territorial integrity of its neighbors as well as to end the violence against the Syrian people," Nesirky said.
"He calls on all parties to reduce tensions and to forge a path toward a peaceful resolution of the Syria crisis."
NATO and major Western powers condemned Damascus for the shelling, an attack the Pentagon labeled "depraved."
Since late July, Syrian rebels have seized control of at least three key border crossings with Turkey and others on the eastern border with Iraq.

Shit. Things just got hotter.

[Flagg]

Probably getting into tinfoil hat territory, but what are the chances the rebels launched those mortars to try and get Turkey and NATO into the fight?

[Sea Skimmer]

Its possible, but that chance is more then counterbalanced by the fatc that trying to provoke a war would have surely fired more then one round, plus so damn many other cross border incidents already happened on the Turkish and Lebanese borders. Only once before has artillery fire landed anywhere populated in Turkey, but small arms incidents occurred numerous times, and some towns in Lebanon have been shelled on an almost regular basis. Also the Turks detected the incoming fire on radar, and if such fire came from a random empty field as opposed to a known Syrian army post it would be much less likely to start anything bigger. Also the rebels in Syria are on average pretty damn smart, and aren't going to risk offending the number one backer they have when they've already given up hope of overt foreign intervention.

[Flagg]

Its possible, but that chance is more then counterbalanced by the fatc that trying to provoke a war would have surely fired more then one round, plus so damn many other cross border incidents already happened on the Turkish and Lebanese borders. Only once before has artillery fire landed anywhere populated in Turkey, but small arms incidents occurred numerous times, and some towns in Lebanon have been shelled on an almost regular basis. Also the Turks detected the incoming fire on radar, and if such fire came from a random empty field as opposed to a known Syrian army post it would be much less likely to start anything bigger. Also the rebels in Syria are on average pretty damn smart, and aren't going to risk offending the number one backer they have when they've already given up hope of overt foreign intervention.

Makes sense to me. But would NATO be inclined to "discover" rebel fired rounds if they want an excuse to crack down on Syria further that will fly with the Russians and Chinese?

[Sea Skimmer]

You think the Russians and Chinese are going to give a fuck that a single round of artillery fire that killed five people in Turkey when they don't care about ten of thousand shells, bombs and rockets killing thousands of people in Syria? This won't do that, in fact it will make the Russians and Chinese complain more about Turkish support for the rebels, since if only warmongering Turkey would seal off the border, deport all the defectors back to Assad's execution chambers, and help him starve all the civilians to death this war could end with everyone's favorite medical doctor dictator still paying his debts. That's what capitalists should want right?

In any case, the Turks would care a great deal to find out if the rebels turned on them, because they already have a completely separate war going on with the Kurds in eastern Turkey/Syria as it is. That is in fact maybe problem 1) on the Turkish shit list with Assad, because Assad always encouraged those groups to hate on the Turks rather then him, while also keeping them somewhat under control. Now eastern Syria is devoid of government forces completely, and those groups have now been granted semi autonomous status by him and operate totally independently of the rebels opposed to Assad. Basically they keep the rebels and government out, and attack the Turks. One city outright declared independence but nobody seems to give a damn about that since they lack support on the matter with the other Kurdish areas. Shit list issue no 2) is of course the refuge flood issue. Turkey isn't fond of Assad's plan to export the rebel supporters in Turkey via random terror bombardment. Eventually that may boil over on its own. It surely will if this just keeps going and going. The UN now estimating 700,000 people will flee is hardly reassuring. That would be over double the current total, and the vast majority have and would flee north. Aleppo afterall is 2 million people on its own, and while many have merely been displaced within the city, and large areas of the city do not see regular fighting, all it would take is serious damage to the water mains, which has already happened on moderate scales, to make the entire place uninhabitable.

[Flagg]

Makes sense, man. Thanks.

[Sidewinder]

Other than Turkish support for Syrian rebels- and maybe make the US look weak for failing to support one of its allies- what reason does Syria have for starting a war with a NATO member? And what are the chances the Turkish military will cross the Syrian border to retaliate- not just with artillery shells, but with fighter-bombers, Special Forces operators, etc.?

[Sea Skimmer]

Well rebel conspiracy thoughts can be set aside as the Turks now claim the Syrians apologized for doing it. The Turkish parliament meanwhile voted to approve open ended military action and the Turkish army has kept up firing to some degree this morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19830928

Turkey's parliament authorises military action in Syria
Turkey's parliament has authorised troops to launch cross-border action against Syria, following Syria's deadly shelling of a Turkish town.
The bill, passed by 320 to 129, also permits strikes against Syrian targets.
But Deputy Prime Minister Besir Atalay insisted this was a deterrent and not a mandate for war.
Turkey has been firing at targets inside Syria since Wednesday's shelling of the town of Akcakale, which killed two women and three children.
Ankara's military response marks the first time it has fired into Syria during the 18-month-long unrest there.
Several Syrian troops were killed by Turkish fire, a UK-based Syrian activist group said. Damascus has not confirmed any casualties.
Apology
The Turkish parliament passed the bill in a closed-doors emergency session.
It permits military action, if required by the government, for the period of one year.
However, Mr Atalay insisted the priority was to act in co-ordination with international bodies.
He told Turkish television: "This mandate is not a war mandate but it is in our hands to be used when need be in order to protect Turkey's own interests."
He said Syria had accepted responsibility for the deaths.
"The Syrian side has admitted what it did and apologised," Mr Atalay said.
Zeliha Timucin, her three daughters and her sister died in Akcakale when a shell fell in their courtyard as they prepared the evening meal.
They were buried in a local cemetery on Thursday.
Turkey had called for the UN Security Council to meet and take "necessary action" to stop Syrian "aggression".
However, Mr Atalay said on Thursday that UN and Syrian representatives had spoken on Wednesday evening.
He said: "Syria... said nothing like this will happen again. That's good. The UN mediated and spoke to Syria."
Nato has held an urgent meeting to support Turkey, demanding "the immediate cessation of such aggressive acts against an ally".
The US, the UK, France and the European Union have already condemned Syria's actions.
Russia, which is allied to President Bashar al-Assad's government, had asked Damascus to acknowledge officially that the cross-border attack was "a tragic accident" which would not happen again.
The BBC's Jim Muir in Beirut says neither Turkey nor Syria wants this to develop into a war. He says there is no appetite in Nato or the West for military conflict and that it is noticeable how conciliatory Syria has been since the news of the shelling broke.
Many social media users in Turkey have been reacting strongly against the possibility of war with Syria.
Hashtags such as #notowar drew a lot of attention.
One user, coymak, tweeted: "There is no victory in war, only victory is the happiness in the eye of the children when it is ended!"
There were many tweets referring to the call for an anti-war rally in central Istanbul on Thursday evening.
In Syria itself as many as 21 members of Syria's elite Republican Guards have been killed in an explosion and firefight in the Qudsaya district of Damascus, the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) told the BBC.
The SOHR is one of the most prominent organisations documenting and reporting incidents and casualties in the Syrian conflict. The group says its reports are impartial, though its information cannot be independently verified.

Not a war yet, but a vote like this means we can expect any and all further Syrian provocations to be met with force. I doubt they'd go past artillery, widening the war is pointless unless Turkey is just going to invade, and they don't want to do that without overt NATO backing, ideally UN backing, least they be hung out to dry occupying part of Syria for years or even decades. Of course, the option always remains of arming the rebels with real weapons.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hmm, looking around this BBC article may have jumped the gun and a request for a free hand militarily has only been sent to parliament. I don't have anymore time right now to look further.

[Esquire]

If the request does pass - hell, even if it doesn't - I expect the Syrian rebels will be sprouting Turkish weapons shortly. More so than they already are, I mean. This sort of thing tends to be frowned upon by armies.

[LaCroix]

According to the news, it has passed, 286 to 92. They

[Sea Skimmer]

Bring forth the UN paper pushing!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19840022

4 October 2012 Last updated at 22:29 ET
UN condemns Syrian attack on Turkish town
The UN Security Council has condemned a Syrian mortar attack on a Turkish border town that killed five civilians.
The statement said the attack underscored the grave impact the Syrian crisis was having on "regional peace and stability".
An earlier draft referring to "international peace and security" was blocked by Syria's ally Russia.
Turkey's parliament has authorised military action inside Syria, a move that triggered anti-war protests.
However, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his country does not intend to start a war with Syria.
The BBC's Barbara Plett at the UN says the statement was strongly worded but was still the result of a compromise with Russia, which has blocked previous resolutions condemning Damascus.
Russia had tried but failed to include language apparently aimed at balancing the Syrian attack with Turkey's military response, she says.
But Russia did succeed in blocking a draft version that called the mortar attack "a threat to international peace and security", a phrase our correspondent says could be used to justify greater Security Council involvement.
The final version said the incident "highlighted the grave impact the crisis in Syria has on the security of its neighbours and on regional peace and stability".
It demanded that "such violations of international law stop immediately and are not repeated".
It called on the Syrian government to "fully respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its neighbours" and urged "restraint".
Syria's UN envoy Bashar Jaafari said his government was not seeking escalation with Turkey.
He criticised the Security Council's silence on "suicide terrorist attacks that struck the city of Aleppo" that killed dozens of Syrians on the same day as the Turkish incident.
A senior diplomat said the Security Council would address that issue on Friday.
On Thursday, Turkey's parliament authorised troops to launch cross-border operations against Syria for a period of one year.
The emergency vote followed the shelling of the Turkish town of Akcakale in which two women and three children were killed.
Turkey's immediate response was to shell targets inside Syria.
Mr Erdogan said at a news conference in Akcakale on Thursday evening: "We want peace and security and nothing else. We could never be interested in something like starting a war."
But he added: "The Turkish Republic is a state capable of defending its citizens and borders. Nobody should try and test our determination on this subject."
On Thursday evening thousands of people held an anti-war rally in Istanbul's Taksim Square.
Demonstrators chanted: "No to war! Peace now! We won't be soldiers of imperialists!"
Some banners accused Mr Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) of being a stooge of the US.
Bedri Baykam, a Turkish artist and activist, said: "[The] United States wants Turkey to enter war against Syria because there are elections coming in the United States. Obama doesn't want to send American troops so the Turkish army serves as their tool but we don't want to be part of the bloodshed in the Middle East."
Other, smaller anti-war protests were reported in Izmir, Mersin, Eskisehir and other cities and towns.
Mr Jaafari said his country had offered condolences over the deaths but not an apology because an inquiry into the incident had not been completed.
Turkey has been a critic of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad since anti-government protests erupted there more than a year ago.
Ankara has openly supported the armed rebellion and called for the end to the regime.

So that waste of time resolution aside, Syrian rebels have claimed 13 Syrian troops killed and others wounded after the Turks shelled several border posts which were then abandon, take that for what you will but it at least sounds credible. The Turkish parliament approved military responses "if necessary" and these can include ground invasions. So one tends to assume, if another incident happens, Turkish tanks and infantry will storm the offending border posts.

[cosmicalstorm]

I really appreciate the commentary on these subjects Sea Skimmer. It makes a lot more sense than most of the stuff flying around in newspapers.