Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Welf
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

Post by Welf »

Thanas wrote:
The populace has fucked up time and again. It has fucked up again recently. If you ask me, the populace must suffer. But not the indiscriminate punishment that is going on now. And yes, axing a bloke's 350-euro pension is indiscriminate and ineffective.
Well, what is a better way then?
Sure: Increase the targeted inflation target to 4% for Europe, which means 6% for Germany. Then Greece can restore competitiveness by staying on same price and wage level. Also, let Greece partly default, and let the banks go broke. Then the shareholders of the banks have to bear the cost. And they screwed up, because they didn't control their executives when they threw money at Greece lenders.
mr friendly guy wrote:Jewish conspiracy theories, duh. I see a few of these conspiracy theories, ie on youtube comments and on other message boards (which BTW have nothing to do with Jews, but some people need a board to get out their message). It seems to be based on the fact that Jews magically control the banks. Seeing how the banks did contribute to the problem, and the Jews control the banks, you can sort of see the magical link to Jews.

The Jews of course also control the media, brainwashing us with help the banks and pro Zionist thoughts, even though those media barons aren't Jewish. But the conspiracy theorists have an out for that too. The media barons are secretly Jewish but pretend not to be as a form of protection. This of course despite not needing such protection since their brainwashing apparently works on most people. But having internal consistency is difficult for the conspiracy theorists.
Well, at least some good news for us Europeans and our dream of a united continent. Whatever happens, we always can find common ground on shared anti-Semitism.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Welf wrote:Sure: Increase the targeted inflation target to 4% for Europe, which means 6% for Germany. Then Greece can restore competitiveness by staying on same price and wage level. Also, let Greece partly default, and let the banks go broke. Then the shareholders of the banks have to bear the cost. And they screwed up, because they didn't control their executives when they threw money at Greece lenders.
Letting the banks go broke means the German economy takes a heavy hammer to the knee. Not going to solve anything.
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Realistically, there's no chance in hell they would take 100% of their money. But the amount they have recovered is quite respectable under the circumstances.
However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:Letting the banks go broke means the German economy takes a heavy hammer to the knee.
Then keep paying. You can't both keep your 40%-export economy afloat and run the periphery into the ground at the same time, Thanas, since they are your export market.
Thanas wrote:However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
Credit Agricole and others have been profiting for years (if not a whole decade) "off this". You can't be serious now Thanas.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Stas Bush wrote:Then keep paying. You can't both keep your 40%-export economy afloat and run the periphery into the ground at the same time, Thanas, since they are your export market.
We can very well do without Greece if need be, especially considering most of the export goods would have to be bought anyway.

Credit Agricole and others have been profiting for years (if not a whole decade) "off this". You can't be serious now Thanas.
Which makes up for their current losses how?
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
They don't make a profit out of your money, but they are still assholes for trying to. Also, suffering is not part of a punishment. It is part of capitalism, where you get slammed for making bad investments. There's no rule that says "the people are obliged to prop you up if you fail because you're a big bad bank".
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:Letting the banks go broke means the German economy takes a heavy hammer to the knee.
Then keep paying. You can't both keep your 40%-export economy afloat and run the periphery into the ground at the same time, Thanas, since they are your export market.
Thanas wrote:However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
Credit Agricole and others have been profiting for years (if not a whole decade) "off this". You can't be serious now Thanas.
Who forced Greece to join the EU and start importing German goods? Nobody; in fact, this is like some parent suing after their teen snuck into a bar using a fake ID and got alcohol poisoning.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:Letting the banks go broke means the German economy takes a heavy hammer to the knee. Not going to solve anything.
The ownership of the banks isn't tied to their working as organization. As long as the bank tellers keep giving and taking it doesn't really matter who owns it. Some private shareholders, or the goverment who becomes owner
Thanas wrote:However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
Because the banks and shadow banks are at fault for this crisis. They gave cheap money to the private sector in southern Europe that created the real estate bubble that caused all those problems. And they also gave money to the Greek government, making the crisis even worse. If the shareholders loose their money, they will be more careful next time and keep their executives at a shorter lash.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:We can very well do without Greece if need be, especially considering most of the export goods would have to be bought anyway.
Kick Greece out then. And see what happens.
Thanas wrote:Which makes up for their current losses how?
Wait... wait wait wait. So profiting off an unsustainable crash-inclined debt bubble is suddenly somehow excused by "current losses"? :lol: I'm afraid not.
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Also, suffering is not part of a punishment. It is part of capitalism, where you get slammed for making bad investments. There's no rule that says "the people are obliged to prop you up if you fail because you're a big bad bank".
Many people tried to say that. Even - gasp - some right-wingers did. I mean, even residently trolling Starglider thinks that way. And yet...
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Dr. Trainwreck wrote:
Thanas wrote:However, it is not as if they made a profit off this, so I don't quite get this "banks must suffer" spiel.
They don't make a profit out of your money, but they are still assholes for trying to. Also, suffering is not part of a punishment. It is part of capitalism, where you get slammed for making bad investments. There's no rule that says "the people are obliged to prop you up if you fail because you're a big bad bank".
When your going broke would have bad consequences for the entire economy, then yes, the state will prop you up. Every state, every historical crisis ever. And we all remember what happens if banks fail left and right. Google Darmstädter und Nationalbank.
Stas Bush wrote:Kick Greece out then. And see what happens.
Sorry but the EU does not play Dirty Harry games.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Stas Bush wrote: Kick Greece out then. And see what happens.
That's stupid. The Eurozone was created so the nations within its membership can mutually support and help eachother. Membership is not used to threaten people, because the EU rather clearly views itself as a right not a privilege. But far be it from internet forumites to grasp the concepts of mutual aid and benevolence. Real life is about macho posturing duh!
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:They don't make a profit out of your money, but they are still assholes for trying to. Also, suffering is not part of a punishment. It is part of capitalism, where you get slammed for making bad investments. There's no rule that says "the people are obliged to prop you up if you fail because you're a big bad bank".
When your going broke would have bad consequences for the entire economy, then yes, the state will prop you up. Every state, every historical crisis ever. And we all remember what happens if banks fail left and right. Google Darmstädter und Nationalbank.
So basically what you're saying is your laws & regulations failed, and your banks have become too big to fail just like in the US, and also like the US, those banks are now effectively holding your government & economy hostage. Good job guys, good job.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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CaptHawkeye wrote:That's stupid. The Eurozone was created so the nations within its membership can mutually support and help eachother. Membership is not used to threaten people, because the EU rather clearly views itself as a right not a privilege. But far be it from internet forumites to grasp the concepts of mutual aid and benevolence. Real life is about macho posturing duh!
Not exactly. Germany hated the idea of giving up the D-Mark. They feared higher inflation and that they would have to pay the debt of other countries. One of the major selling points to the German public was, that there's a strict no-bailout clause in the Maastricht treaties. That and the 3% deficit rule was to prevent a permanent transfer of German tax payer money to other states. This was of course not a stable solution, but it was promised that later, after the monetary integration, soon a fiscal integration would follow with EU-authorities for common control. Germans didn't believe it and hated it.

Funny story that: Fiscal integration and stronger EU-authorities didn't happen, the 3% rule was ignored, inflation will most likely raise, and German tax payer has to bailout other countries national debt. Huh.

So now there's the suggestion to introduce common collective bonds hat are guaranteed by all EU-countries (a.k.a. Germany), and later, there would be stronger EU-authorities for common control. Even if the other countries like France are against that because they want to keep their national sovereignty. And after introducing EU-bonds Germany would have no exit option and thus no leverage.

For example: Say France reduces the retirement age. This would decrease it's possibility to pay debt, since there are less workers. Thus interest would raise, but that cost would be partly transferred to Germans, who in turn had to raise taxes or cut budgets. If Germans do hard reforms, expand retirement age or reduce government waste, they would have to pay less interest. But part of that gain would be transferred to other countries. Of course there's the possibility it works the other way round.

And let's not forget that the Euro was introduced against the German public expressed will, as part of a deal with France to make the re-unification happen.

So there are quite a few reasons why Germans don't like the idea of "mutual help and support", since it seems quite a one-sided thing. And wasn't part of the deal from the beginning.

Note: I'm aware that this is not the whole story. Just the part the German public focuses on, and may have a point to.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Germans, like all people, focus on negative things while accepting benefits as natural. Expansion of German economy through access to unified export markets is not remarked however any monetary transfers to the now industrially depleted periphery is noted and complained about.

This is not to say that Germans are guilty of anything, in my opinion unimaginative peripheral governments who can't think up any alternative for their countries strategic direction other than "EU" are at fault. They simply weren't ready to be in the same currency zone as Germany or Netherlands and shouldn't have entered in the first place. They entered the union which devastated their industries since they couldn't compete with German on equal terms, at the same time they got access to cheap credit without having developed necessary fiscal discipline to use it wisely.

As for the Germans they might complain about monetary transfers but they would complain even more when the collapse of the eurozone made their exports less attractive to the european countries. Since German industrial capacity is actually too large for Germany this would inevitably cause the shrinkage of German economy.
Of course the massive austerity measures area already catching up with Germany since the periphery can no longer afford German exports so the benefits of the Eurozone are questionable even to Germany at least in the short to medium term.

If there is anything good about this crisis is that it might make the remaining EU countries think long and hard about entering the Eurozone until their economies are truly ready.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Kane Starkiller wrote:This is not to say that Germans are guilty of anything, in my opinion unimaginative peripheral governments who can't think up any alternative for their countries strategic direction other than "EU" are at fault. They simply weren't ready to be in the same currency zone as Germany or Netherlands and shouldn't have entered in the first place. They entered the union which devastated their industries since they couldn't compete with German on equal terms, at the same time they got access to cheap credit without having developed necessary fiscal discipline to use it wisely.
Uh... Do you know that ECB advised the periphery to loosen fiscal discipline, right? So Germans may not be at fault, but the ECB is.
Kane Starkiller wrote:If there is anything good about this crisis is that it might make the remaining EU countries think long and hard about entering the Eurozone until their economies are truly ready.
Indeed. I hope Czechs keep their own currency and don't rush to enter the EMU. It just hardly makes much sense right now.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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To return to the Golden Dawn for a bit, they've apparently opened up offices in New York and Melboune to collect sympathy and presumably donations from local Greek immigrants. I guess if Americans more or less got away with donating to the IRA without any trouble, the Golden Dawn can't fare much worse.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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TithonusSyndrome wrote:To return to the Golden Dawn for a bit, they've apparently opened up offices in New York and Melboune to collect sympathy and presumably donations from local Greek immigrants.
Certainly asking for the support of Greek immigrants to the US in their campaign to destroy immigrants in Greece makes it crystal clear that they are trying to fight a battle of racial / cultural superiority, rather than having an issue with immigration per se.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Thanas wrote:When your going broke would have bad consequences for the entire economy, then yes, the state will prop you up. Every state, every historical crisis ever. And we all remember what happens if banks fail left and right. Google Darmstädter und Nationalbank.
But this is a failed private enterprise. Couldn't the government just nationalize the banks, instead of pouring endless money towards them and hoping some will be used to fix the problem? We anyway need the banks, not the owners.
Stas Bush wrote:Many people tried to say that. Even - gasp - some right-wingers did. I mean, even residently trolling Starglider thinks that way. And yet...
...people in power ignored them. It is wrong to say powerful people don't have an ideology, or beliefs. They just have more to lose, and so have it easy to compromise.
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Re: Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

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Dr. Trainwreck wrote:
Thanas wrote:When your going broke would have bad consequences for the entire economy, then yes, the state will prop you up. Every state, every historical crisis ever. And we all remember what happens if banks fail left and right. Google Darmstädter und Nationalbank.
But this is a failed private enterprise. Couldn't the government just nationalize the banks, instead of pouring endless money towards them and hoping some will be used to fix the problem? We anyway need the banks, not the owners.
This happened during the Swedish banking crisis. Failing banks were nationalised, their bad loans written off, their balance sheets recapitalised and were eventually privatised.

Only problem is that the shareholders lose money. Apparently bank shareholders cannot possibly be allowed to face the financial consequences of investing in a badly managed company like every other shareholder in the marketplace.

So governments are shelling out hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayers money instead.
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