Lance Armstrong To Lose All Tour de France Medals...

[Highlord Laan]

By all means, prove it's a witch hunt.

I can point to a massive lack of any actual evidence aside from some allegedly covered up results and some he said she said finger pointing. What evidence, if any, do you have that he actually took anything he's being accused of?

Eyewitnesses, you dumbshit. That's all the evidence you really need. Unless you can prove these are just jealous liars, which is a pretty bold statement to make.

So eyewitnesses are considered a 100% accurate form of evidence now? Investigators have finally developed telepathy.

[Flagg]

Eyewitnesses, you dumbshit. That's all the evidence you really need. Unless you can prove these are just jealous liars, which is a pretty bold statement to make.

So eyewitnesses are considered a 100% accurate form of evidence now? Investigators have finally developed telepathy.

This isn't some stranger eyewitness testimony, it's people that know him and his own fucking teammates. And nice strawman there, fuckwit. Point to where I said they were 100% accurate.

[Darth Yan]

considering that they could have easily been trying to save their own asses, they are as reliable as david duke is on black people. Considering that they could get penalized they could easily resort to finger pointing to get out of it. And the fact is that by this point the titles would only go to another player. And while you didn't say outright you said that their testimony was enough to convince you. You put stock in them when they could easily be trying to save their own asses. Also, some people really do get off on destroying reputations and showing "heroes" to be corrupt and flawed. This is the second time this has been investigated in three years so he could have easily been "oh hell even if i win they'll just repackage the same accusation in a different form two years from now. Might as well get this damn thing over with and stop being hounded. What's more they violated their own statues of limitations and the judge even stated that the timing was suspicious (incidentally this is the guy who refufsed to throw the case out.

[Thanas]

The hurdle for prosecutors wasn’t so much to prove whether any particular cyclist used drugs, but to determine if Armstrong and other team members violated federal conspiracy, fraud or racketeering charges.

[mr friendly guy]

yeah that was careless of me. Still I think that it's a witch hunt since everyone else has done it and they went past their own statues. Give it a rest. He won deal with it.

It appears they are dealing with it. Just not in the way you approve of course.

[Flagg]

NBCNews

Doping agency claims 'overwhelming' proof of cheating by cyclist Armstrong

American cyclist Lance Armstrong was part of “the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen,” the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Wednesday in advance of issuing its long-awaited report detailing the evidence it amassed against the seven-time Tour de France champion.

In a news release announcing the evidence behind its decision, which it will send to other bodies that oversee the sport of cycling, the USADA said that Armstrong was part of an orchestrated cheating campaign run by the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team.

It said that evidence of the scheme "is overwhelming and is in excess of 1,000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities."

"The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding," the agency said.

Teammates of Armstrong's who offered evidence included Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie, the agency said.

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in August ordered that Armstrong’s many cycling titles from his 14-year career be erased and banned him from cycling for life because of the doping allegations. The agency is required to submit its evidence to the International Cycling Union.

Armstrong has repeatedly denied the allegations, blasting the process as "an unconstitutional witch hunt," and cycling authorities who backed Armstrong's legal fight to block the case have said they want to see the material before deciding whether to appeal the U.S. agency's sanctions to the world Court of Arbitration for Sport. The New York Times reported that Armstrong's legal team tried to preemptively discredit the report in a letter sent Tuesday to the antidoping agency’s lawyer, Bill Bock. Timothy J. Herman, one of Armstrong’s lawyers, called the case a farce. “USADA, the prosecutor, now pretends to issue its own ‘reasoned decision,’ even though there was no judge, no jury and no hearing,” Herman said in the letter. The Times said Armstrong, through his spokesman, said he would not comment on the report.

The CEO of the anti-doping agency, Travis T. Tygart, issued this statement:

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.

Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at http://www.usada.org.

The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices. A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.

The evidence demonstrates that the ‘Code of Silence’ of performance enhancing drug use in the sport of cycling has been shattered, but there is more to do. From day one, we always hoped this investigation would bring to a close this troubling chapter in cycling’s history and we hope the sport will use this tragedy to prevent it from ever happening again.

Of course, no one wants to be chained to the past forever, and I would call on the UCI to act on its own recent suggestion for a meaningful Truth and Reconciliation program. While we appreciate the arguments that weigh in favor of and against such a program, we believe that allowing individuals like the riders mentioned today to come forward and acknowledge the truth about their past doping may be the only way to truly dismantle the remaining system that allowed this “EPO and Blood Doping Era” to flourish. Hopefully, the sport can unshackle itself from the past, and once and for all continue to move forward to a better future.

Our mission is to protect clean athletes by preserving the integrity of competition not only for today’s athletes but also the athletes of tomorrow. We have heard from many athletes who have faced an unfair dilemma — dope, or don’t compete at the highest levels of the sport. Many of them abandoned their dreams and left sport because they refused to endanger their health and participate in doping. That is a tragic choice no athlete should have to make.

It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.

Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward. The entire factual and legal basis on the outcome in his case and the other six active riders’ cases will be provided in the materials made available online later today. Two other members of the USPS Team, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Garcia del Moral, also received lifetime bans for perpetrating this doping conspiracy.

Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.

From day one in this case, as in every potential case, the USADA Board of Directors and professional staff did the job we are mandated to do for clean athletes and the integrity of sport. We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand.

Background on the anti-doping agency's process is contained in an earlier explainer from the Associated Press.

Sorry for the necro but I figured this was better than starting a new thread.

[KlavoHunter]

Doesn't matter what the USDA or UCI or ABC or XYZ says, Lance Armstrong will always be that fellow who won a whole shit-ton of Tour De France medals and appeared on a bunch of cereal boxes, to me.

[Flagg]

Doesn't matter what the USDA or UCI or ABC or XYZ says, Lance Armstrong will always be that fellow who won a whole shit-ton of Tour De France medals and appeared on a bunch of cereal boxes, to me.

You remember that scene in 'Planet of the Apes' where Dr Zaius was hearing shit about humans he didn't want to hear and then closed his eyes and put his hands over his hears so he couldn't see or hear Cornelius saying it? You're Dr Zaius.

Can I play the piano any more?
Of course you can!
But I couldn't before!

[KlavoHunter]

Flagg will not rest until everyone gives a shit about this! Flagg will not rest until everyone knows that HE IS RIGHT!

And, no, I don't remember that scene, how about you run along and go find a youtube for me, that's a good boy.

[Flagg]

[Highlord Laan]

So Travis Tryhard managed to dig up financial information that every other investigation missed, got totally 100% accurate eyewitness accounts (lolwut) and is apparently the second coming of clean cycling.

Pull the other one Flagg, it's got bells on.

[Flagg]

Can I borrow your tinfoil hat?

[Darth Yan]

Flagg, Lance probably did, but at this point
a.) You'd just give the metals to another doper if they were taken away
b.) they still passed the statue of limitations
c.) some people get off on ruining people's images justly or not
d.) Some could be lying to save their own asses.

You can't even consider the possibility that you are wrong so you accuse those who do of being idiots

[mr friendly guy]

An Australian news site thought it was appropriate to bring this up again. Kind of takes on a new meaning in light of the latest revelations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Il5RxhLZ5U

[Thanas]

Doesn't matter what the USDA or UCI or ABC or XYZ says, Lance Armstrong will always be that fellow who won a whole shit-ton of Tour De France medals and appeared on a bunch of cereal boxes, to me.

For, he reasons pointedly, that which must not cannot be.

[Simon_Jester]

I think Klavo may also be influenced by how long Lance appeared to have a clean record in spite of all investigations.

I don't really know or care whether Armstrong was doped. But I don't like the methodology in place here. We've got a body that kept re-investigating the same allegation over and over until they got the right answer. In criminal law that would be totally unacceptable; here it seems to be acceptable but still bothers me. I also don't like the demand that Armstrong submit to an arbitrator beholden to the people making allegations against him, and of course the accuser piously claiming their own neutrality and objectivity and commitment to the greater good of the sport.

It, for lack of a better term, smells funny- has the color of injustice.

[Irbis]

We've got a body that kept re-investigating the same allegation over and over until they got the right answer. In criminal law that would be totally unacceptable; here it seems to be acceptable but still bothers me.

Um, I believe that if new evidence was found, criminal law would also organize a re-trial, too. Especially if new detection methods allowing to re-examine old inconclusive clues were developed.

Same with cops convinced they missed something and the guy did it after all, if no culprit is found the investigation can be reopened later even if closed due to the lack of evidence, no?

[Broomstick]

No.

At least, not in the US.

In the US you can not be tried twice for the same crime. If you are acquitted of murder (for example) you stay acquitted. Even if after the acquittal you confess by writing a tell-all book. They would have to find a different thing to charge you with to drag you back to court (perhaps abduction, if new evidence could prove you kidnapped someone, so long as you hadn't been tried for that before, even if you had been acquitted for their murder in the past. Or perhaps some new, unrelated crime.) It's covered under the "double-jeopardy" clause of the Fifth Amendment to the US constitution so it's a pretty basic and unalterable tenant of US law.

Of course, it may be a different matter entirely elsewhere in the world.

Well, OK, if the case never went to trial in the first place, new evidence might lead to a trial, but that's not what has happened here. Armstrong has been "acquitted" multiple times in the past. If it involved law and crime those instances for which he had been found not guilty could not be re-opened, only new instances could be "tried". However, it seems these regulatory bodies have re-visited and re-visited the same instances over and over until a "conviction" could occur. This is permitted because this isn't considered a legal matter in the same way a rape, robbery, or murder would be.

[KlavoHunter]

Seriously, even if Lance did it and even if the unlikely case that the runner-up didn't, how are you going to convince everyone that this #2 person is actually the superstar winner? I don't even know the name of any other cyclists other then Lance. Who's going to shell out for the media blitz to popularize the 'new winner'?

At best, you'll just get the list of medal winners changed on Wikipedia and nobody will notice or care.

[Simon_Jester]

Now, double jeopardy is one of those rules people want to violate sometimes. For example, the case referenced here:

http://www.popehat.com/2012/10/09/frank ... -you-feel/

Ignoring any questions of "I hate the tone of the article," we can pretty well say that in this case, it's blindingly obvious that the defendant did commit rape. But the prosecutors screwed up and charged him with a specific subtype of rape that, given the strict definition of the law, the defendant did not commit. He gets off on a technicality.

It stinks.

But I'm not comfortable with throwing the idea out the window, even if I really want someone to be punished for a crime. Who wants to live in a society where if the authority (professional or government) can't nail you for something the first time, they get to try again and again until a charge sticks? I don't.

[Gunhead]

To me this whole thing has gone beyond the guilt of a single athlete and has turned into a issue of credibility. USADA has gone all the way to prove Armstrong is guilty of doping and cannot back away anymore without looking like total bunch of idiots. Thus they'll keep hounding till they either dig up something to make their claims concrete, which seems unlikely since this would be something like a positive blood test, or they successfully assassinate Armstrong's character enough that people accept USADA's view on the matter. I'm not saying Armstrong didn't use doping, but I also think that is a moot point since this circus has gone on for so long. It's pretty unlikely at this point USADA will find their smoking gun that proves beyond question Armstrong is guilty of doping because if they had, they'd would have come forward with it which in turn means USADA's credibility will probably suffer no matter what as Armstrong can appear as the poor victim of a witch hunt conducted by USADA. For this reason I think he stopped fighting the claims as his career is already over and harm done by an accusation to his reputation is less than actually getting caught, which seems unlikely at this point.

-Gunhead

[Crazedwraith]

No.

At least, not in the US.

In the US you can not be tried twice for the same crime. If you are acquitted of murder (for example) you stay acquitted. Even if after the acquittal you confess by writing a tell-all book. They would have to find a different thing to charge you with to drag you back to court (perhaps abduction, if new evidence could prove you kidnapped someone, so long as you hadn't been tried for that before, even if you had been acquitted for their murder in the past. Or perhaps some new, unrelated crime.) It's covered under the "double-jeopardy" clause of the Fifth Amendment to the US constitution so it's a pretty basic and unalterable tenant of US law.

Of course, it may be a different matter entirely elsewhere in the world.

Indeed, it is, at least in the UK. For serious crimes we have rules that allow Double jeopardy to be waived in the case of 'new and compelling evidence' (such as suspects confessing after being accquited. )

Which seems pretty sensible to me.

edit: On topic,this wouldn't have any bearing on sports cheating though. Its things like murder, manslaughter, armed robbery etc.

[Stark]

But I'm not comfortable with throwing the idea out the window, even if I really want someone to be punished for a crime. Who wants to live in a society where if the authority (professional or government) can't nail you for something the first time, they get to try again and again until a charge sticks? I don't.

Good thing it's not a forced dilemma then? Its actually quite trivial to neither ban retrials for <asinine reason> nor allow infinite attempts to the EBIL GUBBA MINT. I know, I know, America.

[weemadando]

Doesn't matter what the USDA or UCI or ABC or XYZ says, Lance Armstrong will always be that fellow who won a whole shit-ton of Tour De France medals and appeared on a bunch of cereal boxes, to me.

Doesn't matter what the UK or the USA or the USSR or XYZ says, Hitler will always be that fellow who created a whole shit-ton of a jobs and appeared on the cover of Time magazine, to me.

YOU JUST GOT GODWIN'D! YEAH!

[weemadando]

But I'm not comfortable with throwing the idea out the window, even if I really want someone to be punished for a crime. Who wants to live in a society where if the authority (professional or government) can't nail you for something the first time, they get to try again and again until a charge sticks? I don't.

Good thing it's not a forced dilemma then? Its actually quite trivial to neither ban retrials for <asinine reason> nor allow infinite attempts to the EBIL GUBBA MINT. I know, I know, America.

Plus as everyone should know, it's not actually a crime, just the regulatory body overseeing part of a sport he was involved in making the recommendation to the organisation that runs the events.

And so it turns out that double jeopardy has no fucking purpose in this discussion at all.