Amanda Todd Coverage

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General Brock
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Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by General Brock »

Not sure where the Amanda Todd tragedy belongs; News and Politics or Science, Logic and Morality. Victims of bullying have been making the headlines on and off the last few years and this instance really seems to have hit a genuine popular nerve. The topic crosses a few lines;

- Will bullying become the new 'terrorism' leading to more invasive privacy rollbacks on the net? Coverage seems to underplay that she was bullied in person.

- Ms. Todd was given grief over flashing her chest... what, is Meadow Ridge school district some sort of wannabe Taliban stronghold? Really, what's up with that, a 'friend' gets hoodwinked and stalked by a pedophile and that's an invitation to attack her?

- Sure, its great that Ms. Todd's adult online stalker was outed by Anonymous - but he was far from the whole problem; her peer-group bullies are still at large. What's stopping any of them from basking in the limelight of pretending to have been one of her 'friends' when everyone can see, then slagging her memorial online, and finding another victim?

- Despite their age, shouldn't her peer tormenters be outed or otherwise disciplined at some level? Instead, its all being laid on one male scapegoat, Todd's death gets the kind of attention that may inspire copycat suicides, and critical attention is diverted from those of both genders who not only refused to protect her from this person, but used it as an opportunity to make things worse for her, thereby reinforcing any gratification of being untouchable bullies getting away with fooling people.

There are a couple of interesting debating positions as well, the first seeming to almost condone bullying while the other is zero-tolerance:


Full Comment
Jonathan Kay: Bullying is horrible, wrenching, sometimes fatal and … perfectly natural

My colleague Kelly McParland has posted a blog entitled “Bullying is an evil on the same level as sexual abuse.”Such statements may be morally satisfying. But they do nothing to inform an intelligent policy response to bullying. In fact, they may even hinder such a response.

I don’t dispute that bullying can have horrible effects on a victim’s psyche. In some tragic cases — such as that of Amanda Todd — it even can lead to death by suicide. But it also is a scourge that has existed in every society on earth — from the Arctic Utku Eskimos to the African mountain Ik. The appetite to bully cannot be treated as a social sickness, or the product of maladaptive psychological development — which is how it is universally depicted in the media, and in government-funded public-service announcements. Bullying is in our genes. And any effort to fight it must reflect that fact.

The reason that bullying has become part of human evolutionary psychology is that it works — for both males and females — as a strategy to increase one’s attractiveness to the opposite sex, one’s perceived social status, and the cohesiveness of one’s social alliances.

In movies, bullies are shown to be wounded individuals whose bullying is a perverse symptom of the pain that’s been inflicted on them by abusive parents inhabiting poor and broken homes, or by more dominant figures in their social pecking order. There is no evidentiary basis for this stereotype. In fact, research cited by Anthony Volk, Joseph Camilleri, Andrew Dane and Zopito Marini in a 2012 Aggressive Behavior journal article indicate that bullying-induced social dominance is correlated with reduced stress and improved physical health. Amazingly, “bullying is also positively linked with other positive mental traits such as … cognitive empathy, leadership, social competence, and self-efficacy.”

Bullies are not people who crave insight into human nature, in other words: They often have more insight into our true nature, at least in its Hobbesian, adolescent form, than the people around them.

People can be bullied in many ways, of course. But, as evolutionary psychology would indicate, bullying patterns among adolescents closely reflect the traits associated with mate selection. Girls bully one another by impugning their attractiveness and their sexual fidelity — the two traits most sought after by males. Boy bullies, on the other hand, impugn the manliness, strength and wealth of rivals, in a similar play to establish dominance with regard to traits deemed desirable among girls.

The strategy works: Studies show that boys who bully other boys, on average, gain status with girls, who perceive the boys as more dominant. And girls who bully other girls, on average, receive more positive attention from boys.

As the aforementioned authors report, “Dominance has been found to be positively associated with both bullying and peer nominations of dating popularity among adolescents. Bullying is also positively correlated with peer nominations of power, social prominence, student and teacher ratings of perceived popularity and peer leadership” — all of which translate to social capital, which in turn means social or mating opportunities with the opposite sex.

All primate species, including humans, have protocols for establishing dominance hierarchies. In our “Environment of Evolutionary Adaptation” (as the term of art is used in ev-psych circles), these hierarchies often served useful purposes, because they created stable social environments and discouraged violent, ongoing plays for power within an in-group; while also serving to identify the warrior class tasked with primary defence against violent out-group threats. It is only in our modern, more peaceful, age — in which police have a nominal monopoly on violence, and disputes are settled through litigation — that such notions seem obsolete, and bullying has come to be regarded as inherently cruel and pathological.

To fight bullying, we must acknowledge that it is entirely “natural” to the adolescent brain — which is primarily hard-wired, at that time in life, for status-seeking within a peer group. That is why meta-studies show that anti-bulling programs based on appeals to empathy and social justice don’t work. As the Aggressive Behavior authors note, “Programs such as ‘zero-tolerance’ ask bullies to give up an advantageous behavior without gaining anything in return — not a recipe for likely success.”

Thus did a 2011 study in the Journal of Experimental Criminology find that programs in which students were put in charge of devising responses to bullying actually tended to make the problem worse. Absent some unusual furor — such as a one-off YouTube campaign that casts positive light on one particular bullying victim — the adolescent brain is oriented toward advancing within the high-school hierarchy, not upending its moral foundations (which is why the kumbaya ending to every high-school social-drama film is so unrealistic).

The only thing that will work is a strategy that adheres rigidly to the cost-benefit mindset of a teenage mind: Bullying behavior, once detected (a challenge in its own right, especially in the case of cyber-bullying) must be punished by parents, school officials and (in extreme cases that involve violence or threats thereof) the police. Preferably, such punishments should involve social isolation and/or humiliation.

Bullying may seem “evil” to a detached observer. But that word has little meaning to those who are inflicting it on the Amanda Todds of the world. And the first thing anti-bulling crusaders should do is dispense with the notion that we can convince teenage bullies to see the world through their victims’ eyes. The young brain simply doesn’t work that way.

National Post
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Full Comment
Kelly McParland: Bullying is an evil on the same level as sexual abuse and deserves a similar response

Kelly McParland | Oct 15, 2012 10:18 AM ET | Last Updated: Oct 15, 2012 1:09 PM ET


The need to do everything possible to fight bullying is about as self-evident as a cause can be. Bullying is pernicious, destructive, and in many cases fatal. It ruins lives, not just for the victim but for their family and people around them. Though not limited solely to the teen years, it’s hard to imagine anything that could be more cruelly undermine a young person’s life at a period of maximum vulnerability. At the exact moment when they are wrestling with identity, self-confidence and acceptance – skills that will shape how they live and who they become – they are subjected to a senseless, irrational, wholly destructive attack on the very qualities they need to formulate a strong and confident identity.

Bullying isn’t something that happens for a month or two and then goes away. Like sexual abuse, it stays. The memory remains, as does the emotional damage, often forever. Once of the hallmarks of sexual abuse is the silence that often allows a perpetrator to continue finding victims, safe in the knowledge that shame will prevent their target from speaking out. Bullying depends on much the same sense of invulnerability: the victim is often too shattered to share the secret. Even those who do – Amanda Todd being an excellent example – still often find themselves unable to deal with the emotional impact even while receiving assistance from friends, family and existing support networks. That’s how devastating the impact is.

There may have been a day when these things could be handled by a show of physical force. Bullies are notorious cowards. They often dissolve when someone stands up to them. This might be possible in the school yard, when the issue at hand is one kid picking on another. But the Internet precludes that possibility. The internet allows the cowards to mask their identity, to strike from the safety of anonymity. Anyone more than marginally familiar with the internet knows there is a very ugly side to the online community; a mob mentality that takes a certain joy in the hounding and tormenting of others. We’re talking about people so crude that a memorial page set up for Todd has been plagued by abusive photos and comments, including a photo of a young woman hanging herself with a rope and another of a bottle of bleach and the caption “it’s to die for.”

As usual they hide behind the safety of pseudonyms and false identities. We still don’t know the name of the person who drove Amanda to her death. Depending on that person’s skill in avoiding detection, we may never know. So the old bromides for handling bullies don’t stand up in the internet age. You can’t stand up to someone you can’t identify. Nor can you escape cyber-bullying by moving away: the internet is everywhere, and, as the Todds learned, it can track you wherever you go. It doesn’t end when the school bell rings, and it can’t be ignored simply by closing your Facebook page and putting away the cellphone, since those devices are just as ubiquitous as the internet itself, and turning them off doesn’t make them go away.

Something more is needed, and that something has to strike at the root causes of bullying. That is, the sense on behalf of the abuser that they can get away with it, and that society doesn’t take their actions seriously enough to mount a serious effort to stop it; and, for the victim, the feeling that they are alone in the world, that no one can help them, that the torment will never stop and that the abuse diminishes them rather than than the bully.

The way to do this may be much the same as the tactics used to reduce smoking among young people. The great success in anti-smoking efforts has been to make smoking uncool, to establish in young people the understanding that sucking smoke into your lungs, shivering in the cold while you puff on a cigarette, hacking away because of the damage to your lungs, is just not smart or attractive. The effort has been successful because it begins at a young age, is uncompromising and relentless, and because impressionable young people can see for themselves the impact of smoking. The aim of anti-bullying efforts should be to bring about the same sort of realization, to educate people so they recognize that bullying is an emotional crime, that it says nothing about the victim and everything about the abuser. Parents teach their kids from the earliest age to avoid strangers, not to get into a car with someone they don’t know, to tell an adult if someone approaches them. It works – not always but often. Lives are saved as a result. There should be the same immediate reaction to bullying: rather than suffering in isolation, victims should know that the remedy is to speak up, that there is no shame in being targeted, that it’s not their fault. We don’t suggest people struggle with sexual abuse on their own, why should we take a less vigorous approach to mental and emotional abuse?

It’s sadly typical of sexual abuse that, once one victim finally speaks up, a flood of others follows. There is safety in numbers, and a reassurance in witnessing the courage of others. The same holds true for bullying, and the same level of public awareness and counteroffensive is essential. Amanda Todd was not without help. As is made clear in her weekend interview with the Vancouver Sun, Amanda’s mother was aware of the situation, knowledgeable, engaged, familiar with the internet and deeply involved in trying to protect her daughter. Still, she wasn’t able to protect her child. That fact shows both how devastating and how intractable the problem can be. It demonstrates that the considerable efforts already being made to deal with bullying simply aren’t enough, and that a larger, comprehensive – and relentless – strategy is needed. It has taken decades for society to come to grips with the ugly realities and pervasiveness of sexual abuse. It shouldn’t take as long to own up to the similar impact and commonality of the emotional abuse inherent in bullying, and to act effectively against it.

National Post
National Post

McParland's position seems more straightforward, in that a lot of antisocial behaviors can be natural - and from a certain point of view, even work, but are circumscribed. At the same time, Kay says "... the first thing anti-bulling crusaders should do is dispense with the notion that we can convince teenage bullies to see the world through their victims’ eyes..."

Well, there is a way that might allow bullies to begin to see the world through a victim's eyes; out them. At the very least, people have a chance of some warning of who these predators are, the same way convicted sex offenders are outed when released.

Outing has the danger of inviting bullying and stalking to fight bullying and stalking, with context the only guide to legitimacy, notwithstanding the legitimacy of those actions at all. It can also encourage and help formalize a kind of troll subculture that embraces that kind of behavior.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Highlord Laan »

The only way to make a bully "see the world through the victim's eyes" is to make them a victim. IE: When the victim finally snaps and clubs the glorified chimp in the spine with a desk, inform the sprawled out neanderthal that he'll be getting the same treatment from the faculty as his former target on the issue. Silence.

Bullies don't need or in any way warrant understanding, they only need slapping down. Force, in one form or another, is the only language they understand.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by weemadando »

Laan, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, assume that you were/are a kid who was bullied in some fashion and feel some misguided need for revenge.

Guess what, most bullies are made away from school. They're the product of homes where the father or mother beats them or each other. Where alcoholism, drug abuse, mental illness and a myriad of other issues destroy their families and perceptions.

Then we move onto other issues like pack mentalities, fear of being the outsider and more - where people join in, simply so they aren't the one's being bullied. Fears of reprisal, escalation and being shamed to new people on the part of the victim, leading to them not being willing to stand up for themselves or inform others.

And what about the "lack of response"? What response is going to help? You let one kid retaliate against another? Under what pretense, what justification? Kids are bags of reckless hormones, ill-formed ideas and a burgeoning strength that they frequently underestimate. There's no way that can get out of hand.

There's a lot more here than "they only understand force". Maybe if people stopped pointless revenge fantasies about getting back on the kids who were mean to them in school, then they'd look and see that bullying is a huge problem, but not one that can ever be solved by simply turning it around and tormenting the tormentor.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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The thing about these packs of teenagers thinking that it's acceptable to bully kids is that it is.They can get away with it. They should be punished. I'm sorry but when you use sensitive facts about the life of another child to hurt them you should be suspended,outed, dragged in front of your parents and if it happens again expelled.

I honestly don't feel much sympathy for these people. The only way that people learn what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable is through reward and punishment. So you punish them, make them look like the scum of the earth and it'll become a less acceptable past time.

This psych nonsense doesn't truly tell me anything. People are terrible, terrible animals that do these sorts of things. And children do these things unthinkingly. Well, it's time to teach them better.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by mr friendly guy »

weemadando wrote:Laan, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, assume that you were/are a kid who was bullied in some fashion and feel some misguided need for revenge.

Guess what, most bullies are made away from school. They're the product of homes where the father or mother beats them or each other. Where alcoholism, drug abuse, mental illness and a myriad of other issues destroy their families and perceptions.
From the OP - In movies, bullies are shown to be wounded individuals whose bullying is a perverse symptom of the pain that’s been inflicted on them by abusive parents inhabiting poor and broken homes, or by more dominant figures in their social pecking order. There is no evidentiary basis for this stereotype. In fact, research cited by Anthony Volk, Joseph Camilleri, Andrew Dane and Zopito Marini in a 2012 Aggressive Behavior journal article indicate that bullying-induced social dominance is correlated with reduced stress and improved physical health. Amazingly, “bullying is also positively linked with other positive mental traits such as … cognitive empathy, leadership, social competence, and self-efficacy.”

I have always heard this excuse, but I don't recall people actually posting evidence to back up their assertion that its society's fault, er I mean they are from broken homes. At least the people who argue the opposite have at least put forward their arguments and evidence.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Scrib »

I honestly don't see what this has to do with anything. People never truly bring this up as a problem to be solved but as an obstacle thrown onto the field to make it seem like they're being far. Sure, people have fucked up families, pony up for better counselling or punish them but don't let the victims suffer so you can go off on some sympathy for the devil shit.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by weemadando »

mr friendly guy wrote:
weemadando wrote:Laan, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, assume that you were/are a kid who was bullied in some fashion and feel some misguided need for revenge.

Guess what, most bullies are made away from school. They're the product of homes where the father or mother beats them or each other. Where alcoholism, drug abuse, mental illness and a myriad of other issues destroy their families and perceptions.
From the OP - In movies, bullies are shown to be wounded individuals whose bullying is a perverse symptom of the pain that’s been inflicted on them by abusive parents inhabiting poor and broken homes, or by more dominant figures in their social pecking order. There is no evidentiary basis for this stereotype. In fact, research cited by Anthony Volk, Joseph Camilleri, Andrew Dane and Zopito Marini in a 2012 Aggressive Behavior journal article indicate that bullying-induced social dominance is correlated with reduced stress and improved physical health. Amazingly, “bullying is also positively linked with other positive mental traits such as … cognitive empathy, leadership, social competence, and self-efficacy.”

I have always heard this excuse, but I don't recall people actually posting evidence to back up their assertion that its society's fault, er I mean they are from broken homes. At least the people who argue the opposite have at least put forward their arguments and evidence.
It is a stereotype, but it's not one that I claimed all of them subscribed to. In my personal/anecdotal experience they have accounted for probably 50% of the "school" level bullies which we're talking about here. People who lash out because they want a distraction or need to feel in control of something. Domestic violence, alcoholism and separations/divorces are definite causal factors in these cases. These kind of "violent" bullies are not that dangerous (relatively speaking) as a blood nose fixes itself and tends to be more easily noticed by authority figures.

The really dangerous ones are the probably another 10-20% who were the "alpha" bullies. Which is what the article definitely looks at - turns out that in a pack/social animal society, being top shit is correlated with better health and having better social skills? No surprise at all. And this number absolutely EXPLODES in adult society where suddenly violence has real consequences so all but the worst of the first group stop their actions. This group however? They can thrive - look at all the studies on workplace bullying and associated issues.

Then the remaining are the other's that I mentioned, the one's who join in on bullying so as to not make themselves a target. And again, they thrive in the adult, post-school world.
Scrib wrote:I honestly don't see what this has to do with anything. People never truly bring this up as a problem to be solved but as an obstacle thrown onto the field to make it seem like they're being far. Sure, people have fucked up families, pony up for better counselling or punish them but don't let the victims suffer so you can go off on some sympathy for the devil shit.
I'm not on any sympathy of the devil shit. I just thought Laan's idea was fucking ridiculous.

Counselling is an excellent thing, but first you have to get through to 2 or more teenagers that a) something IS actually happening, b) it's not acceptable and c) this is why it's not acceptable.

But hey, we'll never get kids coming forward to parents and teachers in the numbers needed, or teachers and parents taking action in the numbers needed because "they're just kids" or "you need to learn to toughen up" or "snitches get stiches".

We're a deeply dysfunctional social structure pasted on top of some crazy ape bullshit. Fixing it is going to take a long fucking time - generations probably. And by then, we'll have discovered some new fucking way to make each other miserable, because the ape bullshit is still there.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Stark »

Beating up bullies is useless anyway, because all it does is displace the problem, and believe me I know what I'm talking about. If people want to manage negative relationships between children, they need to actually admit that's what they want to do, instead of defining it as 'bullying' and then wringing their hands over how insoluble the problem is.

Some people are assholes. Some of them stop being assholes. That's all that matters.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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Stark wrote:Some people are assholes. Some of them stop being assholes. That's all that matters.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Scrib »

I'm not on any sympathy of the devil shit. I just thought Laan's idea was fucking ridiculous.

Counselling is an excellent thing, but first you have to get through to 2 or more teenagers that a) something IS actually happening, b) it's not acceptable and c) this is why it's not acceptable.

But hey, we'll never get kids coming forward to parents and teachers in the numbers needed, or teachers and parents taking action in the numbers needed because "they're just kids" or "you need to learn to toughen up" or "snitches get stiches".

We're a deeply dysfunctional social structure pasted on top of some crazy ape bullshit. Fixing it is going to take a long fucking time - generations probably. And by then, we'll have discovered some new fucking way to make each other miserable, because the ape bullshit is still there.
Yeah, no. I could have made the same argument about sexual harassment a few decades ago but now people are afraid of it and will be very careful when dealing with cases. The only way for that to happen is to make it clear to the administrators that if they ignore reports of bullying like that then they're going to be fired. From there it trickles down.

This behavior persists because the administrations hasn't been given sufficient incentive to fear having to deal with the fallout to the point that they follow protocols to the letter.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Hamstray »

weemadando wrote: Then we move onto other issues like pack mentalities, fear of being the outsider and more - where people join in, simply so they aren't the one's being bullied. Fears of reprisal, escalation and being shamed to new people on the part of the victim, leading to them not being willing to stand up for themselves or inform others.

And what about the "lack of response"? What response is going to help? You let one kid retaliate against another? Under what pretense, what justification? Kids are bags of reckless hormones, ill-formed ideas and a burgeoning strength that they frequently underestimate. There's no way that can get out of hand.
How about medication? Unfortunately cannabis, which obviously comes to mind, is not an option since studies suggest it not being safe for adolescents.
Perhaps pack mentalities can be countered with something like oxytocin blockers? Research needs to be done.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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Stark wrote: Some people are assholes. Some of them stop being assholes. That's all that matters.
Except for the people who are suffering until these guys stop being assholes. Just ask Amanda Todd. Oh wait...
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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Hamstray wrote:
weemadando wrote: Then we move onto other issues like pack mentalities, fear of being the outsider and more - where people join in, simply so they aren't the one's being bullied. Fears of reprisal, escalation and being shamed to new people on the part of the victim, leading to them not being willing to stand up for themselves or inform others.

And what about the "lack of response"? What response is going to help? You let one kid retaliate against another? Under what pretense, what justification? Kids are bags of reckless hormones, ill-formed ideas and a burgeoning strength that they frequently underestimate. There's no way that can get out of hand.
How about medication? Unfortunately cannabis, which obviously comes to mind, is not an option since studies suggest it not being safe for adolescents.
Perhaps pack mentalities can be countered with something like oxytocin blockers? Research needs to be done.
Can drugs stifle our natural urge to be pack apes? I don't think so. Honestly I can't see anything that can do it except making it clear that there's a no tolerance policy. The problem is that this would require adults to give a shit.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by salm »

What would your zero tolerance policy consist of?
One problem with punishment is that bullies carry punishments like a badge of honor.
So if you don´t implement a really draconian form of punishment which carries its own bag of problems you solve nothing.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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Do what my school did: Physical bullying? Two week suspension. Suspended three times? Expelled.
Teasing and mockery in class? You get kicked out of class for the day, life goes on. You persist? Detention. Three detentions? Suspension.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

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Scrib wrote:Do what my school did: Physical bullying? Two week suspension. Suspended three times? Expelled.
Teasing and mockery in class? You get kicked out of class for the day, life goes on. You persist? Detention. Three detentions? Suspension.
The rules aren't the problem. It's the enforcement. Just like in the real world where people with higher social status and money receive more lenient sentence or are more likely to be offered plea deals than "undesirables" and/or the poor, bullies who happen to be popular with students and teachers tend to skate on bullying accusations. Meanwhile, those who fight back against bullies (usually those who are much less popular) because nothing is getting done are classified as the aggressors.

I was mildly popular among the "right" students and many of the administrators during my senior year. More importantly, I knew most of the on-campus security and police by name. The shit I could get away with (not bullying, mind you) was insane. Kids would get picked up for truancy standing right next to me while the officers would just say hello and tell me to "stay out of trouble." It was just assumed I was allowed to be there because they didn't figure I would do anything wrong.

Now, imagine I get into a scuffle with some kid that no one really cares much about: who is the officer I bullshit with and am on a first name basis with (even though I called them all Mr./Mrs. X out of respect) going to believe? That's the problem many victims of bullying face. They are told they are overreacting, they aren't believed at all, or nothing is done because, at the end of the day, reporting incidents of violence and bullying affects the schools bottom dollar.

I posted in another thread about how I wasn't all that popular in my earlier years. I avoided violence, reported bullying (of course, this was the 90s when no one really gave a shit), and did my best to keep my head down. You know what finally fixed a lot of my bullying issues? Hitting a growth spurt my freshman year, knowing a bit of wrestling, and just manhandling the shit out of anyone who decided to get physical with me. Three fights in which my attacker was fairly bruised up and I didn't have a scratch on me was what it took for word to get around that "don't fuck with him, he fights back." By choosing the right locations to let a bully "corner" me, I was able to guarantee no teachers/administrators would find out about it.

And I was lucky because I'm a guy. Girls really don't have that option. Sure, there were more than a few dust-ups at our high school involving girls, but all the ones I can remember were "popular" girls fighting each other. They also always picked the cafeteria, which was dumb to say the least.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by White Haven »

Another aspect is the administrative culture of the school itself. From my own personal experiences, if the school administrators are, bluntly, assholes, they'll end up mentally filed under 'enemies' right along with the bullies. You don't go to one set of enemies to report the actions of another set of enemies, so things go unreported more often.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Stark »

[quote="mr friendly guy"][/quote]

It's almost as if working out why behaviours occur and why they stop is more important than hand wringing over BULLIZ and TEH CHILDRONS! Congratulations, you're perspective is better than almost every policy-setter in the country.

And man if people think EXPELL THEM will make bullies go away, that's a pretty terrible perspective. 'Tough on bullies', just like 'punch the bullies', will just displace it onto other people. Changing school cultures that reinforce stuff like this is probably the only really effective way to change anything, and terrible school enforcement and posturing is probably why the situation is getting worse (if it is, outside of BULLIZ hysteria).

EDIT wtf why quote box empty
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TheFeniX
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by TheFeniX »

I only caught certain parts of different conversations because I was there to work, not listen to gossip, but at one of the schools I did IT work, there was a pretty big (for a small town/school) issue where, from what I could garner, an unpopular kid was cornered by more than a few football players who were giving him shit. Things got physical and the kid fought back. Somewhere along the way a "star player" of the varsity football team sprained his wrist pretty bad and would have to sit out the next game or two. I don't know how his hand was hurt and I really don't care.

I overheard more than a few "he should have just walked away" comments and there was talk about how people were mad that, because of the way schools handle fights, the football player's parents couldn't sue and the kid (the one who was being bullied) couldn't have charges pressed against him. To "keep the peace," the bullied kid was taken out of school for a while. I don't know if he was suspended or if the parents decided to voluntarily withdraw him.

You hear a lot of shit like this working IT. People just generally ignore the guy in the collared shit with a bad haircut while he's under their desk punching down a network drop or working on the network core (usually in the main admin building). I could understand the students being annoyed because they can be monsters, but I got the feeling the school staff was upset less about 3+ vs 1 fight happening in the school and more about losing the next football game.

Then again, Texas is pretty fucking stupid about highschool football. Varsity Blues wasn't a comedy, it was a documentary.
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Stark
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Stark »

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Attitudes and attempts to manage situations like is (alongside the perennial favourite 'punish both') don't actually address anything and in my opinion actually contribute to create the culture people are so worried about.

In school I got punished a lot for fighting bullies, and this is motivated simply by administrators desire to not get entangled in a difficult and dubious situatio legally and ethically. On one level they were right, because it made my life better and made me a lot of friends, but the bullies just went and bullied someone else, probably respected by many more because they actually had a fight instead of just robbing immigrants like usual. Neither ineffective enforcement or punching will solve a cultural problem, which is frankly pretty obvious. Branding it 'bullying' in Australia just lets people act like it is unstoppable and so we don't really need to think about solutions.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Simon_Jester »

On thing you need in your school culture is actually expelling people; this no longer happens in some school districts.

Where I live, it is very difficult to get expelled without actively trying to kill someone or something, because of the way "no child left behind" gets interpreted as applied to dysfunctional sociopathic lunatics. This tends to make the overall quality of the school lower. Teachers and administration are expending a large fraction of their time and energy figuring out how to rein in a small clique of raging assholes, instead of how to get knowledge into brains.

If we could document it, I bet we'd find that many of the declines in American education come from two factors:

1) It is no longer politically acceptable in some areas to expel the bottom 10% of a high school population- teenagers who are, bluntly, quite happy to leave school with an 8th grade education and have no intention of paying enough attention or putting in enough effort to acquire a better one right now. Maybe in ten years when their brain has grown in and the scars from all the fights they've picked start to ache they'll be able to get their act together. But right now? They're just distracting the rest- kids who have real potential will waste their time and cheer on as some random loonie makes a mess of things, like so many Romans watching a gladiator fight at the Colosseum.

2) Not only are we using standardized tests to measure student progress and compare school quality, we're using a LOT of them. If, statistically speaking, students spend 10-15% of their time taking standardized tests or reviewing specifically for test content, that adds up to a significant drop in classroom time over the years. By the time the kid graduates, they've spent 11 years in the classroom instead of 12; if they know as much as they would before the testing regime got cranked up so hard, it's a sign that someone is doing their job very right.
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Stark
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Stark »

Eventually kids will end up in places they can't get expelled from anyway. All forcing bad people down does is create an underclass of juvie/crap school kids. Its arguably more effective to try to actually engage with the problem than just bury the people who have it. Not everyone who bullies in school turns into a criminal or asshole or whatever, and understanding why people start a behaviour and why people stop it is probably useful.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by mr friendly guy »

Stark wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:
It's almost as if working out why behaviours occur and why they stop is more important than hand wringing over BULLIZ and TEH CHILDRONS! Congratulations, you're perspective is better than almost every policy-setter in the country.

And man if people think EXPELL THEM will make bullies go away, that's a pretty terrible perspective. 'Tough on bullies', just like 'punch the bullies', will just displace it onto other people. Changing school cultures that reinforce stuff like this is probably the only really effective way to change anything, and terrible school enforcement and posturing is probably why the situation is getting worse (if it is, outside of BULLIZ hysteria).

EDIT wtf why quote box empty
I don't have anything against people trying to work out why bullying occurs. What I do wonder is what we are going to do for the victims until the bully reforms. At least if they are expelled or suspended the victim gets a break. People don't commit suicide after one episode of bullying, its after several, so I see it as a good thing that victims get a reprieve. In any event if all school cultures reinforced stuff like suspension or expelling them, where are we going to displace the problem to? Are they going to go another culture to bully the kids there?

BTW the last statement is not meant to be a dig against you, but I simply curious given your stance on expelling bullies will only displace the problem.
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Scrib
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by Scrib »

Stark wrote:Eventually kids will end up in places they can't get expelled from anyway. All forcing bad people down does is create an underclass of juvie/crap school kids. Its arguably more effective to try to actually engage with the problem than just bury the people who have it. Not everyone who bullies in school turns into a criminal or asshole or whatever, and understanding why people start a behaviour and why people stop it is probably useful.
If someone comes up with a way to deal with this problem then fine. But imo, I don't really think that a lot of these kids have that much inner turmoil. It's just silly, unfiltered ape social dynamics that they get away with because no one challenges them and they're in a group so they make each other worse. the way to deal with that is to deal with the culture. I'm sure that there are some sick fucks but I doubt that they are the majority. It's the culture of laziness that surrounds these issues that makes it acceptable.
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Re: Amanda Todd Coverage

Post by weemadando »

Back on the original topic of "Amanda Todd" coverage, I've seen this a few times in the past few days:
Image

yup because that's all there is to it.
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