Empire vs Feddies - Reasons behind the invasion

[Publius]

Consider the vast profits made by the Corporate Sector Authority, whose wealth exceeded that of all but the most important of the Core regions; the Authority controlled tens of thousands of star systems in the proverbial backwater of the galaxy. The Authority generated handsome amounts of capital paid directly to the Imperial exchequer, at virtually no investment on the Empire's part; one might actually expect the Galactic Empire to treat the Alpha Quadrant in just the same fashion, and establish another Corporate Sector.

Publius

[Patrick Ogaard]

What massive military? The Empire had 25,000 stardestroyers.

Along with unknown thousands of Victory Star Destroyers, unknown tens of thousands of frigates, unknown tens of thousands of cruisers, unknown tens of thousands of dreadnaughts, unknown hundreds of thousands of corvettes, gunships, blastboats, system patrol craft, pocket patrol boats, carriers, communications ships, interdictors, plus millions upon millions of TIE vessels and other fighter-sized craft.

The ISD to non-ISD ratio (excluding fighters) was probably several hundred to one, and that's being conservative.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook (cue warding signs versus WEG), an average Sector Group -- the force available to an average Moff lording it over an average sector -- has at least 2,400 ships, 2 dozen of which are Star Destroyers and a further 1,600 of which are other combat starships. This number would not include blastboats, or system patrol craft without hyperdrives.

[Setesh]

For pre-ROTJ: Because its there. Palpatine is a megalomanic writ about as large as you can get. The mere fact that they CAN means they probably will.

Post-ROTJ: Resources, exploitable natives. If they take the 'long' view, future ship crews and troops.

[Patrick Ogaard]

There are actually several good reasons (with good meaning politically useful in a deeply cynical manner) for the Empire to make extensive use of slave labor.

Large forces of slaves from rebellious worlds serve as an object lesson to those who would oppose the Empire. Oppose the Empire and you, too, along with everyone you know, can spend the rest of your short life mining radioactives on a vacuum world, shoveling sewage by the cubic meter in the bowels of a world city, or serving as entertainment in a COMPNOR R&R facility.

Slaves are a "humane" way to deal with the problems of surrendering populations. Mass executions of rebellious populations that have surrendered to Imperial forces are counterproductive in the long run. Killing a few hundred crewers from a Rebel ship is easily hushed up, as is the quiet disposal of a few million civilians on some Outer Rim world that even its closest neighbors have never heard of. On any less obscure world, though, it's much better to offer the Rebels and malcontents a choice: surrender and live as slaves, or resist further and die. It leaves the Rebels an unpleasant way out, but a way out nonetheless.

Slaves provide prestige to those who have them. It's one thing to have a brightly polished and annoying protocol droid serving drinks and lighting cigars while an astromech droid rolls around with a plate of hors d'oeuvres. It's quite another thing for the former rebellious Prime Minister of Dorktooine to be serving the drinks, to have the PM's daughter serving the hors d'oeuvres, his lobotomized and surgically growth-arrested sons scampering about lighting cigars, to have the PM's former wife two steps behind as a concubine, and to have a few castrated Wookies about to act as fan wavers, boot pullers and footstools. That kind of slavery is all about vicious ego gratification.

This is even shown on Tatooine, where it was obviously not practical to maintain slaves when it would have been simpler and cheaper to maintain the slaves as free but penniless laborers or just invest in cheap droids. Slaves are notoriously unproductive laborers, since they have no incentives. If they work hard and well and fast, what will their reward be? More work. House slaves provide their owners with prestige, much the same way as celebrities and those who would like to be celebrities derive prestige from having "their people" do things for them.

The use of large masses of slaves, such as for agriculture, mining or construction, is historically a meatgrinder in need of constant replacements. There is no real incentive to maintain the health of the slaves until the supply dries up, and the Empire had an effectively unlimited supply of potential replacements. Especially in extraction industries like mining on hostile worlds, organic slaves might be more economically feasible than droids. If the droids break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more droids and ship them in. If the organics break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more organics and ship them in. So far, so good.

But how many potential slaves does a conguered world yield? Let's say a low-tech world in the Empire, with relatively light population, surrenders to Imperial forces after siding with the Rebels. Maybe ten billion people survived the light Imperial bombardment. Even if half the surviving population is executed, imprisoned, interrogated or tortured into unserviceability, that leaves five billion potential slaves. Used as unskilled labor pools broken up into lots of 100,000 and loaded on prison barges, one has the potential for up to 50,000 bargeloads of slaves. How cheaply can those slaves then be sold compared to comparable droids? How much does it then matter if they don't last nearly as long? The only investments are cheap modular barracks if weather requires it, cheap paper clothing that the recyclers pop out fresh every day from recycled cellulose fibers or nearly indestructible clothing made from scratchy synthetics guaranteed to serve many generations of slaves, water and waste recyclers to churn out drinking water and slops, environment-specific life support aids if necessary, and a small cadre of armed guards and/or automated weapons.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Based on Threepio's scrap parts, and Genonosians building thousands of battle droids a day, droids can't be expensive. And they don't tire, don't feed, don't rebel and can handle most environments without any suits.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Based on Threepio's scrap parts, and Genonosians building thousands of battle droids a day, droids can't be expensive. And they don't tire, don't feed, don't rebel and can handle most environments without any suits.

Based on Threepio's head being easily mated to a battle droid body, as well as the battle droid head to Threepio's body, droid technology is also either incredibly modular and standardized or Cybot Galactica has connections with the Geonosians. Which is an aside that does nothing to address your statement, obviously.

So here goes. Slavery is inherently inefficient. The only situation in which it makes sense in the real world, albeit not ethical sense, is when it proves impossible to obtain the necessary cheap labor through normal channels. Droids are machines whose motivation comes from programming and can therefore be separated from what would be a depressing and demotivating situation to a sapient slave. A suitably programmed droid will work just as hard as it is programmed to, regardless of its situation.

Thus, droids make more sense than slaves unless slaves either meet needs that droids can't, or are dramatically cheaper.

Certain slaves can provide services that droids can't. Thus, for instance, an ambitious biology researcher might want a suitably creative team of research assistants incapable of taking credit for the researcher's achievements. Buying up the entire bioresearch staff of a university from an enslaved backwater world would be a good way to do that, especially as the slaves could come up with creative ideas that the researcher's droids could not manage. Similarly, an Imperial contractor who puts in the low bid to set up a brothel facility for an Imperial military R&R planet, a facility capable of handling entire divisions simultaneously, would be faced with a choice. Either buy 20,000 humanoid droids plus support droids and hope that the troops don't object to having their way with glorified toasters, or buy 50,000 Twi'lek, Human, Rodian, etc. slaves preselected for physical attractiveness with an option for further annual purchases to freshen the pool.

The Imperial liberation of rebellious worlds could very well make slaves a cheap commodity little removed from grains or cattle in terms of cost. The wholesale enslavement of billions of persons at one stroke would certainly depress the value of slaves, possibly to such a level that it would be just as cheap to buy a dozen human slaves as a single labor droid. In such a situation it would be economically sensible to buy large numbers of expendable slaves and small numbers of nonexpendable droid overseers and guards.

Droids do not tire, but they do have operational limits and require regular maintenance and recharging. Also, while droids intended for use in vacuum or in hostile planetary atmospheres would be designed to work in them without preparation, ordinary labor droids and the like would logically require suitable modifications, such as lubricants that will not seize up in vacuum or power systems that will not overheat without atmospheric convection. That can drive up costs. If human or other slaves are available cheaply and in bulk, then tiring is not an issue since the slaves can work in shifts. Similarly, bargain basement environmental protection suits or the like can allow operations in hostile environments, though one could also just buy slaves suited to the environment.

The question of rebellion is the most fundamental advantage of droid over slave labor, though the expenditure of a few of the less healthy slaves as object lessons can nip rebellion in the bud. The use of cheap explosive tracking implants and security droids and/or automated weapons will also help, as will the simple recourse of programming the food processing systems to produce slops laced with cheap psychoactive drugs. Regular hypno-conditioning from pre-Republic times, the sort of stuff used by Xim the Despot, will do the rest (and requires nothing more than a computer program, a video screen with speakers, and some potpourri).

Logically and ethically, droids are obviously the better way to go, but in AOTC the Republic's relatively small numbers of mass-produced slave soldiers (admittedly purpose-bred) kicked the hordes of Separatist droids into next week.

Most importantly, what is to be done with the populations of rebellious worlds that surrender? Eventually, exterminating planetary populations out of hand will be bad for PR and planetary populations will stop surrendering. Why surrender if everyone will die whether they surrender or not? Simply leaving the populations in place and putting COMPNOR on the job is an option, but the capacities of COMPNOR are limited to approximately one planet per sector. Some planets with worthwhile infrastructure and resources can be allowed to continue on with little more than a black eye in the form of an Imperial garrison and a few strategic urban reduction strikes. Worlds without such advantages, though, and not considered important enough to be turned into model examples of the New Order by COMPNOR, could often best serve the Empire by being cleared of the current tenants (with those tenants being disposed of on the open market to defray the costs to the Empire). That way, the planet can be sold or put to other constructive use without pesky local objections.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Certain slaves can provide services that droids can't. Thus, for instance, an ambitious biology researcher might want a suitably creative team of research assistants incapable of taking credit for the researcher's achievements. Buying up the entire bioresearch staff of a university from an enslaved backwater world would be a good way to do that, especially as the slaves could come up with creative ideas that the researcher's droids could not manage. Similarly, an Imperial contractor who puts in the low bid to set up a brothel facility for an Imperial military R&R planet, a facility capable of handling entire divisions simultaneously, would be faced with a choice. Either buy 20,000 humanoid droids plus support droids and hope that the troops don't object to having their way with glorified toasters, or buy 50,000 Twi'lek, Human, Rodian, etc. slaves preselected for physical attractiveness with an option for further annual purchases to freshen the pool.

Slaves that come up with "creative ideas" have been few and far between. The only one I can recall would be Qwi Xux. They actually killed the inhabitants of the rest fo the planet, using Xux's genious to create the Sun Crusher. But thats one in several trillion. Why would the Empire slog through hundreds of worlds looking for potential geniouses to help them with labor, when they could've had the job done ages ago using hard-working droids and their own geniouses they have laying around at that moment (Bevel Lemelisk comes to mind). Aside, its not as if Xux was never discovered that the SC (didn't she help design the DS, too?) wouldn't have been made. Thats silly. It would have just taken longer.

Imperial troops have been effectivley brainwashed. They live to serve the Emperor, not chase hot aliens around. I doubt it would matter to them. Imperial officers, on the other hand can get anything they want anyways, so it matters less. For the reasons above, running a facility less effieciently with slaves seems stupid compared to running it effectivley with droids.

The Imperial liberation of rebellious worlds could very well make slaves a cheap commodity little removed from grains or cattle in terms of cost. The wholesale enslavement of billions of persons at one stroke would certainly depress the value of slaves, possibly to such a level that it would be just as cheap to buy a dozen human slaves as a single labor droid. In such a situation it would be economically sensible to buy large numbers of expendable slaves and small numbers of nonexpendable droid overseers and guards.

I have to agree slaves are cheap. But see the pit droids, for example. One labor droid is worth as much if not MORE than a dozen human slaves. A single pit droid can lift objects that would take several humans, and can do it over and over without fatigue. In effect owning these slaves would create a massive inefficient labor group, versus a small and surprisingly effective (again, see pit droids) labor force.

Droids do not tire, but they do have operational limits and require regular maintenance and recharging. Also, while droids intended for use in vacuum or in hostile planetary atmospheres would be designed to work in them without preparation, ordinary labor droids and the like would logically require suitable modifications, such as lubricants that will not seize up in vacuum or power systems that will not overheat without atmospheric convection. That can drive up costs. If human or other slaves are available cheaply and in bulk, then tiring is not an issue since the slaves can work in shifts. Similarly, bargain basement environmental protection suits or the like can allow operations in hostile environments, though one could also just buy slaves suited to the environment.

The Empire has all the money in the galaxy. It can afford extra batteries for their droids, so power is not an issue. Maintenece can be handled by other droids, like R2 units, cheaply and efficiently. R2 units owned by farmers can operate in space easily enough, I don't see why it would be a problem for the galaxy-spanning Empire.

This would be a logistics nightmare I might add. If these slaves were lifting anywhere nearly as large as the pit droids were (I know I keep bringing that up, but look as its size/lifitng ratrio! Its unfathomable!), you would need a hell of a lot of shifts, doing half-assed work as it is because of their poor living conditions, and straining and getting back problems from lifting heavy machinery. You'd be running out of usable slaves in no time.

The question of rebellion is the most fundamental advantage of droid over slave labor, though the expenditure of a few of the less healthy slaves as object lessons can nip rebellion in the bud. The use of cheap explosive tracking implants and security droids and/or automated weapons will also help, as will the simple recourse of programming the food processing systems to produce slops laced with cheap psychoactive drugs. Regular hypno-conditioning from pre-Republic times, the sort of stuff used by Xim the Despot, will do the rest (and requires nothing more than a computer program, a video screen with speakers, and some potpourri).

Apparently some species are immune to these effects. the Wookies fought of the Empire. So did the Elom(mites)s, and the "prune faces" (their name escapes me).

Logically and ethically, droids are obviously the better way to go, but in AOTC the Republic's relatively small numbers of mass-produced slave soldiers (admittedly purpose-bred) kicked the hordes of Separatist droids into next week.

So? We're not talking about war droids, we're talking about using them for labor. For example, I doubt a CT could lift as much as the pit droids did in TPM.

Most importantly, what is to be done with the populations of rebellious worlds that surrender? Eventually, exterminating planetary populations out of hand will be bad for PR and planetary populations will stop surrendering. Why surrender if everyone will die whether they surrender or not?<snip>

Integrate them into Imperial society. Build cities, take advantage of its natural resources/closness to trade routes/just build factories and stuff there. If they resist, they wouldn't make very good slaves then would they? You're setting an example by killing off those who resist, and assimilating those who are willing into the Imperial infrastructure. once rebellious worlds see that there is SOMETHING they can do in an Imperial occupied world, they would gladly give in versus swimming in their own planets mantle.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Certain slaves can provide services that droids can't. Thus, for instance, an ambitious biology researcher might want a suitably creative team of research assistants incapable of taking credit for the researcher's achievements. Buying up the entire bioresearch staff of a university from an enslaved backwater world would be a good way to do that, especially as the slaves could come up with creative ideas that the researcher's droids could not manage. Similarly, an Imperial contractor who puts in the low bid to set up a brothel facility for an Imperial military R&R planet, a facility capable of handling entire divisions simultaneously, would be faced with a choice. Either buy 20,000 humanoid droids plus support droids and hope that the troops don't object to having their way with glorified toasters, or buy 50,000 Twi'lek, Human, Rodian, etc. slaves preselected for physical attractiveness with an option for further annual purchases to freshen the pool.

Slaves that come up with "creative ideas" have been few and far between. The only one I can recall would be Qwi Xux. They actually killed the inhabitants of the rest fo the planet, using Xux's genious to create the Sun Crusher. But thats one in several trillion. Why would the Empire slog through hundreds of worlds looking for potential geniouses to help them with labor, when they could've had the job done ages ago using hard-working droids and their own geniouses they have laying around at that moment (Bevel Lemelisk comes to mind). Aside, its not as if Xux was never discovered that the SC (didn't she help design the DS, too?) wouldn't have been made. Thats silly. It would have just taken longer.

Imperial troops have been effectivley brainwashed. They live to serve the Emperor, not chase hot aliens around. I doubt it would matter to them. Imperial officers, on the other hand can get anything they want anyways, so it matters less. For the reasons above, running a facility less effieciently with slaves seems stupid compared to running it effectivley with droids.

The Imperial liberation of rebellious worlds could very well make slaves a cheap commodity little removed from grains or cattle in terms of cost. The wholesale enslavement of billions of persons at one stroke would certainly depress the value of slaves, possibly to such a level that it would be just as cheap to buy a dozen human slaves as a single labor droid. In such a situation it would be economically sensible to buy large numbers of expendable slaves and small numbers of nonexpendable droid overseers and guards.

I have to agree slaves are cheap. But see the pit droids, for example. One labor droid is worth as much if not MORE than a dozen human slaves. A single pit droid can lift objects that would take several humans, and can do it over and over without fatigue. In effect owning these slaves would create a massive inefficient labor group, versus a small and surprisingly effective (again, see pit droids) labor force.

Droids do not tire, but they do have operational limits and require regular maintenance and recharging. Also, while droids intended for use in vacuum or in hostile planetary atmospheres would be designed to work in them without preparation, ordinary labor droids and the like would logically require suitable modifications, such as lubricants that will not seize up in vacuum or power systems that will not overheat without atmospheric convection. That can drive up costs. If human or other slaves are available cheaply and in bulk, then tiring is not an issue since the slaves can work in shifts. Similarly, bargain basement environmental protection suits or the like can allow operations in hostile environments, though one could also just buy slaves suited to the environment.

The Empire has all the money in the galaxy. It can afford extra batteries for their droids, so power is not an issue. Maintenece can be handled by other droids, like R2 units, cheaply and efficiently. R2 units owned by farmers can operate in space easily enough, I don't see why it would be a problem for the galaxy-spanning Empire.

This would be a logistics nightmare I might add. If these slaves were lifting anywhere nearly as large as the pit droids were (I know I keep bringing that up, but look as its size/lifitng ratrio! Its unfathomable!), you would need a hell of a lot of shifts, doing half-assed work as it is because of their poor living conditions, and straining and getting back problems from lifting heavy machinery. You'd be running out of usable slaves in no time.

The question of rebellion is the most fundamental advantage of droid over slave labor, though the expenditure of a few of the less healthy slaves as object lessons can nip rebellion in the bud. The use of cheap explosive tracking implants and security droids and/or automated weapons will also help, as will the simple recourse of programming the food processing systems to produce slops laced with cheap psychoactive drugs. Regular hypno-conditioning from pre-Republic times, the sort of stuff used by Xim the Despot, will do the rest (and requires nothing more than a computer program, a video screen with speakers, and some potpourri).

Apparently some species are immune to these effects. the Wookies fought of the Empire. So did the Elom(mites)s, and the "prune faces" (their name escapes me).

Logically and ethically, droids are obviously the better way to go, but in AOTC the Republic's relatively small numbers of mass-produced slave soldiers (admittedly purpose-bred) kicked the hordes of Separatist droids into next week.

So? We're not talking about war droids, we're talking about using them for labor. For example, I doubt a CT could lift as much as the pit droids did in TPM.

Most importantly, what is to be done with the populations of rebellious worlds that surrender? Eventually, exterminating planetary populations out of hand will be bad for PR and planetary populations will stop surrendering. Why surrender if everyone will die whether they surrender or not?<snip>

Integrate them into Imperial society. Build cities, take advantage of its natural resources/closness to trade routes/just build factories and stuff there. If they resist, they wouldn't make very good slaves then would they? You're setting an example by killing off those who resist, and assimilating those who are willing into the Imperial infrastructure. once rebellious worlds see that there is SOMETHING they can do in an Imperial occupied world, they would gladly give in versus swimming in their own planets mantle.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Sorry, Darth Garden Gnome, but I'm going to post this without quoting, since that's getting too confusing for me. I hope you'll bear with me.

The Empire, as an organization in its own right, would not likely bother with the sorting unless it was a matter of picking up unskilled laborers by the long ton. I'm thinking more of private enterprises modeled on classical warfare. Wherever a Greek or Roman army went, a train of slave traders willing to take POWs off the hands of the victors was sure to follow. Similarly, I would not be hugely surprised if the Empire had contractors that took care of such logistical problems for them in return for a suitable cut going into the Imperial coffers. In such situations, the obvious option is to try to sell as high as possible. Using census data and interrogations, the population would be quickly sifted and sorted into readily marketable categories. This is, again, where droids come in. Protocol droids, interrogation droids and security droids are the ideal tools for such work. Thus, a private researcher with some disposable income might well be tempted to put in a bid on ImpBay to buy some of those clever fellows who might finally help him design that cotton gin.

Also, while stormtroopers are effectively little more than drones, regular Imperial Army troops have an actual expectation of retirement and re-integration into civilian life. That means that their conditioning can not go too deep, and their assorted biological functions are unlikely to be suspended for the duration of their enlistment or impressment. Under those circumstances, a red light district full of flesh and blood hookers is likelier to be more appealing to the hordes of conscripts and volunteers half a galaxy away from home than would be a red light district crawling with astromech droids with "attachments." Also, the actual administration of the facility, as well as the security, would naturally be provided by droids with a few organic supervisors.

Dirt cheap and inefficient very often beats out cheap and efficient. Inefficiencies in the system may be accepted if there is prestige associated with having sapient beings as slaves. Bossing around a gaggle of pit droids would not be nearly as ego-gratifying as bossing around a bunch of people who would have real lives and dreams of their own if you did not control their very lives with your slightest whim. Having slaves means always having someone to feel superior to. The slavery situation on Tattooine was obviously economically impractical. There was suitable droid labor visible all around, and many of the slaves in the slave quarters where Anakin and Shmi stayed appeared to be doing nothing productive. Even had they been ordered to, I doubt the slaves seen in the movie could have provided as much work as the Asps and pit droids seen. The only conclusion is that the slaves were primarily there to enhance the status of their owners.

On the matter of the logistics, and especially the superiority of the pit droids in the heavy lifting department, I'd have to say that I halfway agree. There are obviously areas where organics can not compete no matter how cheaply bought and in what numbers. Again, slaves would in most cases not be a strictly logical choice but rather one made on the basis of cheapness and/or prestige. Also, allowing slaves to do maintenance on starships or any other important machinery would be an obviously bad idea. As for a logistics nightmare derived from slaves, if regular personnel can be brought in, then so can slaves. It's just a matter of lowering standards enough in terms of food, clothing, shelter and safety for the slaves.

Some species would indeed appear to be immune or at least have insufficiently studied neurophysiologies. Also, though, in most cases it may be considered impractical to condition entire planetary populations, and apparently the cheap hypno conditioning only works really well if initially used in childhood (thus reducing its overall utility).

As for not talking about war droids, war slaves have in fact been used in history and in the Empire, so that they are an integral part of the slavery question and would be in obvious competition with war droids. Also, choosing the right slave for the job would solve the pit droid versus CT problem. Just get a Wode. That way you've got an eight-limbed critter adapted to 2+ gravity environments. All told, though, it's a matter of the right tool for the right job. If pit droids are superior in a particular application, use pit droids.

Regarding the planetary populations, the point is that there will be lots of worlds that just are not worth assimilating, developing or even garrisoning. These worlds may have no worthwhile resources, be removed from trade routes, or not worth the trouble of having factories set up there. The Empire did have limited (albeit unimaginably immense) resources, and not every world is worth the effort. If you have a sector with several important worlds with populations in the hundreds of billions or even trillions, what is the point of wasting your reform efforts on a dozen or so other worlds that have at most a few billion people each? Better to assimilate the important worlds than the unimportant ones.

Commercial slaving enterprises did figure in some Star Wars comic books (though that's not always well-policed EU stuff), and the Empire did run slave-populated industrial worlds, with everyone issued a hooded yellow one-piece suit, eating in huge mess halls, and sleeping in dormitories. Stormtroopers served as guards and overseers. One of the few Star Wars comic books I ever bought featured a covert mission by Leia to such a planet.

Perhaps most importantly, nothing says evil empire like hordes of downtrodden slaves to be liberated.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Ok Patrick, I'll go without quotes:

You do have a point in the first section: private enterpises may have their uses for slaves, which would be a purpose to have them lying around in storage until they can make a profit. But having them work on space craft means that they aren't selling them, and even if they are, that the Empire is using them, which is the problem. I can undestand having them sit around in "storage" and so nothing would be a waste, but they should be put ot more menial tasks, not starship construction.

I don't know to what degree Imperial bases are operated by stormies versus operation by the Army. But in either scenario, any military orginization would most certainly keep sex out of the equation. Unless of course, you'd like packs of pregnent hookers and troopers withr venirial diseases running around. I'm sure that, like in our military, if you want to get laid, you've got to suck in that gut, beat back those urges, and wait till you go on shore leave.

Prestige on the other hand, is different matter entirley. On places like Tatooine, slaves are acceptable for prestige pieces, because they've only a store to run. The Empire has a GALAXY to run. The occasional "pet" slave aside (like how Ackbar was to Tarkin) there shouldn't be any room for slowing down production of starships so you can boss around slaves. Especially when there's Rebels and extra-galactic aliens, and other terrorists running around, that shrinks the space for such ineffieientcies even more. I'm not saying the Empire should've been the Borg, but when you've got an entire galaxy to keep track of, you should keep your priorities straight.

Concerning logistics:Well I'm surethatwould piss off a starship crew to no end. They get less luxuries because some slave, who is inferior to a droid in almost all respects, needs food and shelter ect. Especially when the droids could do their work without taking away a crews luxuries.

Granted, in the war department droids are outclassed by humans, but war is about as complex as pulling a trigger when its down on the grunt level. Building a starship is a much more difficult job, require very specialized workers who can get the job done fast and easy. That aside, is this Wode sentient? It would be most difficult to tame a non-sentient creature into building a spaceship, especially considering it doesn't have a clue what to do, how to do it, ect. If it is sentient, I would suspect that even a sentient beast as strong as that one would be able to resist considerably.

I don't think that the Empire wanted to broadcast the idea of being "evil" to the galactic society. Thats a really bad way to cow star systems to your cause.

What I'm trying to say here Patrick, is not that I'm disputing the Empire used slaves, its official, I can't change that. I'm trying to tell you that the Empire is much better off WITHOUT them. If they exist for prestige purposes, then Ok-BUT they are still not going to do as good a job as a droid labor force.

[Sabastian Tombs]

What massive military? The Empire had 25,000 stardestroyers.

Along with unknown thousands of Victory Star Destroyers, unknown tens of thousands of frigates, unknown tens of thousands of cruisers, unknown tens of thousands of dreadnaughts, unknown hundreds of thousands of corvettes, gunships, blastboats, system patrol craft, pocket patrol boats, carriers, communications ships, interdictors, plus millions upon millions of TIE vessels and other fighter-sized craft.

The ISD to non-ISD ratio (excluding fighters) was probably several hundred to one, and that's being conservative.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook (cue warding signs versus WEG), an average Sector Group -- the force available to an average Moff lording it over an average sector -- has at least 2,400 ships, 2 dozen of which are Star Destroyers and a further 1,600 of which are other combat starships. This number would not include blastboats, or system patrol craft without hyperdrives.

You don't see my point. I don't deny that the Empire had all those other ships. However, in ANH, Tarkin said that fear of the DS would keep systems in line. This implies that the Imperial Fleet alone wasn't enough to do the job. I'm just saying that the reason the fleet alone wasn't enough is because the Imperial Fleet can't really be considered all that massive.

Using the lowest Canon size for the Empire (100,000 worlds, from the novelization of TPM) your looking at roughly 100 inhabited worlds per sector. A sector fleet may have 2400 ships, but you're going to have some ships down for mantaince (25-30% in modern navies), smaller combatant ships are going to escorting convoys or patroling for pirates, and your capital ships are going to be doing show the flag missions to show folks where their tax dollars are going. This means that the average Imperial world may see a capital ship once every couple of months. It's hard to mantain a reign of terror under those conditions.

[JodoForce]

The post-ROTJ Empire Remnant could actually use the AQ as a base of operations and military buildup without the NR knowing. They're currently labouring under a NR strategy of "containment", to use a realpolitik term. This means a huge military buildup would be noticed and suppressed by the NR's superior forces, hence a stalemate is reached. However, if they had a secret bridge to the AQ, they could set up bases, conquer and/or recruit/subvert local powers to become their lackeys in exchange for weapons and military assistance, and conduct a huge military buildup without the NR's knowledge.

That would probably make for a good fanfic.

They'd have to very, very carefully.

A full-scale New Republic invasion would topple the Imperial Remnant quickly.

Hey, read Expansion by Mike January here. http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/stori ... /expan.txt
From here: http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/archive.html

Anyone care to finish it for him?

[Rhoades]

You don't see my point. I don't deny that the Empire had all those other ships. However, in ANH, Tarkin said that fear of the DS would keep systems in line. This implies that the Imperial Fleet alone wasn't enough to do the job. I'm just saying that the reason the fleet alone wasn't enough is because the Imperial Fleet can't really be considered all that massive.

Using the lowest Canon size for the Empire (100,000 worlds, from the novelization of TPM) your looking at roughly 100 inhabited worlds per sector. A sector fleet may have 2400 ships, but you're going to have some ships down for mantaince (25-30% in modern navies), smaller combatant ships are going to escorting convoys or patroling for pirates, and your capital ships are going to be doing show the flag missions to show folks where their tax dollars are going. This means that the average Imperial world may see a capital ship once every couple of months. It's hard to mantain a reign of terror under those conditions.

That's over-simplefing. The reason Tarkin gave his quote was 1) the firepower of the DS could do something that no even hundreads of ships could do to a world equipped with a shield generator (which most worlds should have): instantly blow it into a asteriod. That's the fear he implied. And, 2) The DS is his baby, some of his words were bragging (partially right to).

Also, it be impractical to place your entire fleet at one planet to impose your might. But, considering how both Death Stars could be built in secret, and a surprise ambush fleet of at least 30 ISDs could be written off without little notice says something about the Empire's navy.

[T-1000]

Did you read the site and think that in all of this site's history, that this topic would have been answered at least six times? Jesus Tap-dancing Christ boy.

Well, duh! The Empire is an evil organization. Evil Orginzations do that sort of stuff all the time.

What? Haven't you ever been a part of evil orginization?

You haven't!?!? Oh man, you don't know what you're missing.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Along with unknown thousands of Victory Star Destroyers, unknown tens of thousands of frigates, unknown tens of thousands of cruisers, unknown tens of thousands of dreadnaughts, unknown hundreds of thousands of corvettes, gunships, blastboats, system patrol craft, pocket patrol boats, carriers, communications ships, interdictors, plus millions upon millions of TIE vessels and other fighter-sized craft.

The ISD to non-ISD ratio (excluding fighters) was probably several hundred to one, and that's being conservative.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook (cue warding signs versus WEG), an average Sector Group -- the force available to an average Moff lording it over an average sector -- has at least 2,400 ships, 2 dozen of which are Star Destroyers and a further 1,600 of which are other combat starships. This number would not include blastboats, or system patrol craft without hyperdrives.

You don't see my point. I don't deny that the Empire had all those other ships. However, in ANH, Tarkin said that fear of the DS would keep systems in line. This implies that the Imperial Fleet alone wasn't enough to do the job. I'm just saying that the reason the fleet alone wasn't enough is because the Imperial Fleet can't really be considered all that massive.

Using the lowest Canon size for the Empire (100,000 worlds, from the novelization of TPM) your looking at roughly 100 inhabited worlds per sector. A sector fleet may have 2400 ships, but you're going to have some ships down for mantaince (25-30% in modern navies), smaller combatant ships are going to escorting convoys or patroling for pirates, and your capital ships are going to be doing show the flag missions to show folks where their tax dollars are going. This means that the average Imperial world may see a capital ship once every couple of months. It's hard to mantain a reign of terror under those conditions.

I quite see your point. I just wasn't addressing it, merely tossing an official figure to provide some idea of the relationship between SDs and smaller combat vessels in the Imperial Navy.

The figures for the big warships do not, as far as I am aware, include ships like the system patrol craft without hyperdrives, and definitely don't include things like fighters. One official model of system patrol craft is 120 meters long and carries four rather large laser cannon capable of quickly reducing a freighter to glowing scrap. When in active service, these craft would have to either patrol suspect areas or remain near likely hyperspace entry and exit points in order to intercept vessels. For most people, then, such patrol craft would represent the typical Imperial presenece in space. That makes it all the more impressive when a warship more than ten times as long pops into orbit, or when a whole squadron of those behemoths comes along as escorts for a command cruiser more than a hundred times as long as the little system patrol craft.

Another consideration is that most people even today do not ever see a big warship with their own eyes. It is, and has been since the age of the yellow press, the media that make the public perception of the indomitability of naval power. Even with the limited communications available under the Empire, news of an Imperial battlewagon paying a visit to an important world of a sector will quickly spread. Physically visiting all important worlds would be impractical.

Per the AOTC ICS, a lightly populated sector like Chommell Sector has 36 full-member worlds, 40,000+ settled dependencies, and 300,000,000 barren stars. That's huge. If Chommell Sector were provided with a typical Sector Group under the Empire, that would not be nearly enough ships to provide full coverage. Two dozen ISDs of a standard Sector Group, even if supported by over a thousand smaller vessels, can not maintain a simultaneous physical presence on more than a tiny fraction of such a vast number of worlds. However, with hyperdrive, a substantial taskforce can be almost anywhere in the sector within hours to respond to a disturbance, and the full-member worlds will be easy enough to cover on a permanent basis.

The Imperial Sourcebook notes that Grand Moffs (in charge of Priority Sectors that cut across normal sector lines), and the Moffs of important or volatile sectors can have multiple Sector Groups assigned to them. The specific examples noted were Grand Moff Tarkin and Moff Carlinson, each with the equivalent of up to 15 Sector Groups. Given that, an important Moff of a sector near the core could have up to 360 ISDs and some 24,000 other combat starships available for use. A Core sector would probably be hip deep in full-member worlds, though, soaking up a lot of those extra forces available to an important Moff. That would be partially counterbalanced again by the fact that those smaller starshps would include Strike cruisers, Dreadnoughts, and even Victory Star Destroyers, all themselves capable of doing nasty things to recalcitrant worlds without planetary shields.

Which reminds me of the fact that the Empire should actually have about 50,000 ISDs. There are over a thousand sectors, and the Emperor is supposed to have thousands (plural) of Sector Groups available, each of which should have an average of 24 ISDs, for 48,000+ ISDs. (I'm not going to go out of my way to defend that conclusion, though, since 25,000 is a sufficiently staggering number.)

[Publius]

Using the lowest Canon size for the Empire (100,000 worlds, from the novelization of TPM) your looking at roughly 100 inhabited worlds per sector. A sector fleet may have 2400 ships, but you're going to have some ships down for mantaince (25-30% in modern navies), smaller combatant ships are going to escorting convoys or patroling for pirates, and your capital ships are going to be doing show the flag missions to show folks where their tax dollars are going. This means that the average Imperial world may see a capital ship once every couple of months. It's hard to mantain a reign of terror under those conditions.

Incidentally, that is not the smallest canonical size for the Galactic Empire. In Mr Alan Dean Foster's Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (Del Rey Books, 1976) -- published under Mr George Lucas's name -- the Grand Moff Tarkin makes reference to "the million systems of the galactic Empire". Therefore, the canonical lower limit on the Empire's size is "a million systems", wholly regardless of what figure might be given by The Phantom Menace.

[Uraniun235]

Wouldn't it be better to go in, take over the AQ governments, and indoctrinate everyone into being good little Imperial subjects?

Seems to me you'd get a lot more out of willing subjects (citizenship could come later for those who demonstrate loyalty to the Empire) working for more cash they can spend on themselves rather than enslaving the entire ST galaxy.

[Admiral Johnason]

Did you read the site and think that in all of this site's history, that this topic would have been answered at least six times? Jesus Tap-dancing Christ boy.

Well, duh! The Empire is an evil organization. Evil Orginzations do that sort of stuff all the time.

What? Haven't you ever been a part of evil orginization?

You haven't!?!? Oh man, you don't know what you're missing.

I want to take over the world and am giving out places in my new world order; does that count?

[Slartibartfast]

The pre-ROTJ Empire would use an invasion of the Alpha Quadrant as an excuse to justify their massive military expense and tyrannical policy. The motivations of the AQ and its abilities would be exaggerated and twisted, thus giving the entire Empire and its subjugated peoples an external enemy to focus on as a means of distracting rebellion.

What massive military? The Empire had 25,000 stardestroyers. If the Empire had only 1,000,000 member worlds, that only 1 stardestroyer per 40 worlds. The EU gives member world numbers much larger, though. You use a number like 3,000,000 worlds, you get 1 ship to 120 worlds. If the Empire can't even put one capital ship over each world, it's not much of a dictatorship.

IMHO, of course.

Um, you realize that the Empire has more ships other than just Star Destroyers, right?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Patrick, generally I agree with your point that slaves are only useful for prestige, but here's a nitpick:

Especially in extraction industries like mining on hostile worlds, organic slaves might be more economically feasible than droids. If the droids break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more droids and ship them in. If the organics break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more organics and ship them in. So far, so good.

I don't think manual labor performed by slaves in mining industries is more economically feasible than automated operations performed by heavy mining equipments, operated by skilled engineers. Modern-day's oil companies use heavy, automated machines.

[Kuja]

The post-ROTJ Empire Remnant could actually use the AQ as a base of operations and military buildup without the NR knowing. They're currently labouring under a NR strategy of "containment", to use a realpolitik term. This means a huge military buildup would be noticed and suppressed by the NR's superior forces, hence a stalemate is reached. However, if they had a secret bridge to the AQ, they could set up bases, conquer and/or recruit/subvert local powers to become their lackeys in exchange for weapons and military assistance, and conduct a huge military buildup without the NR's knowledge.

That would probably make for a good fanfic.

I LOVE that idea!

*tucks that one away for possible future use*

[Patrick Ogaard]

Patrick, generally I agree with your point that slaves are only useful for prestige, but here's a nitpick:

Especially in extraction industries like mining on hostile worlds, organic slaves might be more economically feasible than droids. If the droids break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more droids and ship them in. If the organics break down irreparably because of the hostile environment, you have to buy more organics and ship them in. So far, so good.

I don't think manual labor performed by slaves in mining industries is more economically feasible than automated operations performed by heavy mining equipments, operated by skilled engineers. Modern-day's oil companies use heavy, automated machines.

True. Slaves used for manual labor, etc. are feasible in the Star Wars context only if they are extremely cheap and plentiful compared to the obviously more reasonable automated alternatives. (Of course, a suitable compromise is to sort out the skilled miners of a world that is to be cleared of population, and then sell those miners to a mining company, but that may amount to going too far to justify every little thing.)

[Patrick Ogaard]

Wouldn't it be better to go in, take over the AQ governments, and indoctrinate everyone into being good little Imperial subjects?

Seems to me you'd get a lot more out of willing subjects (citizenship could come later for those who demonstrate loyalty to the Empire) working for more cash they can spend on themselves rather than enslaving the entire ST galaxy.

Think of it this way ... the Federation is the big regional power of the Alpha Quadrant, as the Borg are for the Delta Quadrant and the Dominion for the Gamma Quadrant (at least as far as canon goes). Take down the big bully on the block and the other powers in those areas will be amenable to diplomatic overtures backed up by Strike cruisers. Better to have one short, brutal war in each galactic quadrant to drive home the futility of resistance than to have to spend the next fifty to a hundred years bringing each little pocket empire of the ST galaxy to heel.

The various major powers of the Alpha Quadrant would actually make the best foundations for future Imperial sectors. The UFP, the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire could each be turned into model sectors. Even if the Star Wars galaxy has twice the number of stars as our own, as some estimates say, the ST galaxy would still have easily enough habitable worlds to merit the establishment of 600 or more sector governments.

[XPViking]

For some reason, I was always partial to Darth Wong's idea about invading the Feds:

In conclusion, transporters are a horrifying example of the ruthlessness of the Federation, and its willingness to disregard the issue of continuity of existence and consciousness, in favour of expediency. Some claim that the Empire is ruthless, but we do not expect our soldiers to willingly destroy themselves as raw fuel for a cloning process! The Federation is a plague upon their galaxy, and must be eliminated to free their people from horrors like the transporter.

XPViking

[XPViking]

For some reason, I was always partial to Darth Wong's idea about invading the Feds:

In conclusion, transporters are a horrifying example of the ruthlessness of the Federation, and its willingness to disregard the issue of continuity of existence and consciousness, in favour of expediency. Some claim that the Empire is ruthless, but we do not expect our soldiers to willingly destroy themselves as raw fuel for a cloning process! The Federation is a plague upon their galaxy, and must be eliminated to free their people from horrors like the transporter.

XPViking