Poll: Israelis want Segregation and Apartheid =

[Ekiqa]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oc ... d-policies

Israeli poll finds majority in favour of 'apartheid' policies

Two-thirds say Palestinians should not be allowed to vote if West Bank was annexed, while three in four favour segregated roads

Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem


More than two-thirds of Israeli Jews say that 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if the area was annexed by Israel, in effect endorsing an apartheid state, according to an opinion poll reported in Haaretz.

Three out of four are in favour of segregated roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, and 58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians, the poll found.

A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country's parliament. Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.

A commentary by Gideon Levy, which accompanied the results of the poll, described the findings as disturbing. "Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists," he wrote.

"It's good to live in this country, most Israelis say, not despite its racism, but perhaps because of it. If such a survey were released about the attitude to Jews in a European state, Israel would have raised hell. When it comes to us, the rules don't apply."

The poll was conducted by a public opinion firm, Dialog, which interviewed 503 people out of an Israeli Jewish population of just under 6 million.

Talk of the possible annexation of the West Bank, or the main settlement blocks within it, has increased in recent months as expectations of a negotiated settlement to the conflict have sunk to an all-time low. Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, recently argued for the annexation of land between the internationally recognised Green Line and the Israeli-built separation barrier.

The poll results will bolster the claim of Israel's Arab citizens, who make up 20% of the population, that they suffer from racist discrimination. Almost half the poll's respondents said Israeli Arabs should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority, and a third said that Arab towns in Israel should be moved to the PA's jurisdiction in exchange for Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

According to the Haaretz report, the survey found that ultra-Orthodox Jews held the most extreme views about Arabs, with 70% supporting a legal ban on voting rights and 95% backing discrimination against Arabs in the workplace.

So, combine the best of the US South and South Africa, add religion, and presto! Racist zealots. And the west still gives them billions of dollars every year.

[SirNitram]

Yep, undeniably racist. Of course, no one in power will dare say that, because of instant ridiculous anti-semitism claims.

[Flagg]

Listen, Jews in Europe were mistreated horribly and almost wiped out, so they have the right to horribly mistreat Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. This makes sense somehow.

[gigabytelord]

Listen, Jews in Europe were mistreated horribly and almost wiped out, so they have the right to horribly mistreat Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. This makes sense somehow.

I know you're joking, but the logical side of my brain just recoiled in horror.

[Zaune]

Joking or not, I reckon he's articulated the thought process that leads to these attitudes absolutely perfectly.

[RileyManheim]

Joking or not, I reckon he's articulated the thought process that leads to these attitudes absolutely perfectly.

This is part of why I'm leaning towards a Nanowrimo that wipes out alot of humanity this time. I need to get the urge out of me

[Crossroads Inc.]

Listen, Jews in Europe were mistreated horribly and almost wiped out, so they have the right to horribly mistreat Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. This makes sense somehow.

This line of "thinking" is sadly parroted by a great many people, both on the Right in America and in Israel. There are even more people who will not actually say this out loud, yet have internalized it, and use it as rationalizing policies against Palestine. The sad fact is that there is a large amount of people out there who consider ANY criticism against Israel as "OMG ANTI-SEMITE NAZI!"

Joking or not, I reckon he's articulated the thought process that leads to these attitudes absolutely perfectly.

This is part of why I'm leaning towards a Nanowrimo that wipes out alot of humanity this time. I need to get the urge out of me

Nano-What?
Are you high?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Listen, Jews in Europe were mistreated horribly and almost wiped out, so they have the right to horribly mistreat Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. This makes sense somehow.

This line of "thinking" is sadly parroted by a great many people, both on the Right in America and in Israel. There are even more people who will not actually say this out loud, yet have internalized it, and use it as rationalizing policies against Palestine. The sad fact is that there is a large amount of people out there who consider ANY criticism against Israel as "OMG ANTI-SEMITE NAZI!"

Joking or not, I reckon he's articulated the thought process that leads to these attitudes absolutely perfectly.

This is part of why I'm leaning towards a Nanowrimo that wipes out alot of humanity this time. I need to get the urge out of me :P

Nano-What?
Are you high? :|

NaNoWriMo ... National Novel Writing Month. An internet contest to write a whole 50,000 word novel within the confines of the month of November. No, he's not high. Melodramatic? Perhaps. But not high.

[RileyManheim]

...
NaNoWriMo ... National Novel Writing Month. An internet contest to write a whole 50,000 word novel within the confines of the month of November. No, he's not high. Melodramatic? Perhaps. But not high.

This is correct.

Its more just an excuse to write just 'cause I like to sometimes and I work best with a goal. That and if it takes me longer than 30 days to finish something, I get bored and start something new.

[wautd]

"It's good to live in this country, most Israelis say, not despite its racism, but perhaps because of it.

Except for its untermensch Arab citizens offcourse.

[Lictuel]

Reading this as a German makes me feel kind of strange. Haven't they learned from history?

[Thanas]

Yes and they decided that most of Hitler's policies were just fine, they just need a little fine tuning. As in, replace Aryan with "Jew" and "Jew/slav/minorities" with "Brown people".

[Todeswind]

NaNoWriMo ... National Novel Writing Month. An internet contest to write a whole 50,000 word novel within the confines of the month of November. No, he's not high. Melodramatic? Perhaps. But not high.

Wait? Is 50,000 supposed to be a lot? That's the length of the individual chapters I've been writing.

[Irbis]

Wait? Is 50,000 supposed to be a lot? That's the length of the individual chapters I've been writing.

The target audience are people that don't write, it was set to not overwhelm/bore them.

[Grumman]

Reading this as a German makes me feel kind of strange. Haven't they learned from history?

Yes, they have. That's the problem. They do not want to concede political control of Israel precisely because they know what others - and Arab Muslims in particular - have done to them when they thought they had the upper hand. Therefore, if simple demographics would give Arab Muslims the upper hand in a combined Israel-West Bank democracy (either because Palestinians currently living in Arab countries return or just because of differing population growth rates), they will not accept a combined Israel-West Bank democracy.

[Panzersharkcat]

NaNoWriMo ... National Novel Writing Month. An internet contest to write a whole 50,000 word novel within the confines of the month of November. No, he's not high. Melodramatic? Perhaps. But not high.

Wait? Is 50,000 supposed to be a lot? That's the length of the individual chapters I've been writing.

I think you added an extra zero because that would be a very long chapter. The Fallout pnp rulebook I'm writing is at around thirty-two and a half pages in MS word, not counting the cover and the table of contents, in single space Courier New and I'm at 10,646 words. 50,000 would be around 150 pages.

[Broomstick]

This attitude of the Israelis wasn't obvious decades ago? Really? I thought that as soon as they started scraping Palestinians off land to build Jewish colonies in their place this would have been plainly apparent.

[mr friendly guy]

Interestingly I find that some people use the same thought process described by Flagg to go into Holocaust denial mode.

Instead of a) what was done to the Jews does not give them the right to do what they are doing to the Palestinians, becomes
b) what was ALLEGED to have been done to the Jews is fake, so they don't have the right to do what they are doing to the Palestinians. Because you know, being mistreated allows you to do the same to someone else who had nothing to do with it.

[Todeswind]

NaNoWriMo ... National Novel Writing Month. An internet contest to write a whole 50,000 word novel within the confines of the month of November. No, he's not high. Melodramatic? Perhaps. But not high.

Wait? Is 50,000 supposed to be a lot? That's the length of the individual chapters I've been writing.

I think you added an extra zero because that would be a very long chapter. The Fallout pnp rulebook I'm writing is at around thirty-two and a half pages in MS word, not counting the cover and the table of contents, in single space Courier New and I'm at 10,646 words. 50,000 would be around 150 pages.

That is how long a single chapter of "The Circle Must Be Broken" is after about chapter 4. Check the creative writing section if you don't believe me. I write one of them every two months on my way to and from work on my cell phone as well as a chapter about as long for the three other books I'm writing.

EDIT: 25-45k per chapter according to FFN's word counter. Though now that I think about it only about 20k per chapter is stuff I can really take credit for.

[Zaune]

This attitude of the Israelis wasn't obvious decades ago? Really? I thought that as soon as they started scraping Palestinians off land to build Jewish colonies in their place this would have been plainly apparent.

Well, yes, of course. The surprising part is that they're actually admitting it, instead of insisting that of course they'd treat the Palestinians fairly if only they gave up the violence. I actually find it rather refreshing, in a twisted sort of way; it's certainly preferable to the weasel words and dodgy self-justification that people use when they want to be politically correct but can't quite handle the idea of changing their actual attitudes instead of just trying to hide them.

[Panzersharkcat]

That is how long a single chapter of "The Circle Must Be Broken" is after about chapter 4. Check the creative writing section if you don't believe me. I write one of them every two months on my way to and from work on my cell phone as well as a chapter about as long for the three other books I'm writing.

EDIT: 25-45k per chapter according to FFN's word counter. Though now that I think about it only about 20k per chapter is stuff I can really take credit for.

I looked and I believe you. But yeah, I think 50,000 is supposed to be a fair amount in such a short time. It's probably more than I can do, even when motivated. It's certainly much longer than the chapters I have written for Tales of the TSC.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Wait? Is 50,000 supposed to be a lot? That's the length of the individual chapters I've been writing.

That's longer than the entirety of "The Great Gatsby." And "Slaughterhouse-Five." "Fahrenheit 451." Most awards use ~50,000 as the cut-off if they have separate "novel" and "novella" categories.

Though it changes based on who you ask, the "average" or "typical" length of a novel will be somewhere between 80,000 and 150,000 words.

Basically, 50,000 words is very large for a single chapter.

[fgalkin]

Reading this as a German makes me feel kind of strange. Haven't they learned from history?

Yes, they have. That's the problem. They do not want to concede political control of Israel precisely because they know what others - and Arab Muslims in particular - have done to them when they thought they had the upper hand. Therefore, if simple demographics would give Arab Muslims the upper hand in a combined Israel-West Bank democracy (either because Palestinians currently living in Arab countries return or just because of differing population growth rates), they will not accept a combined Israel-West Bank democracy.

Silly, man, don't you know that not wanting to live in a country where the majority of the voting public wants to murder you is apartheid and racist?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Keevan_Colton]

When you treat them as second class citizens and oppress them, yes. Was that meant to be some sort of sarcasm on your part fg?

[fgalkin]

When you treat them as second class citizens and oppress them, yes. Was that meant to be some sort of sarcasm on your part fg?

So, the non-racist thing to is to submit to genocide, yes? I mean, that IS the official stated policy of Hamas.

The Palestinians are treated as second class citizens because the Israelis are afraid of them. But being treated as second class citizens makes them hate the Israelis even more, and in turns, leads to more oppression. It's a vicious cycle.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin