Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

Post by Zaune »

The Guardian
Boris Johnson has called on David Cameron to follow his lead by paying all staff across Whitehall the London living wage as he announced the new rate of £8.55 for workers in the capital, following a 25p increase.

The prime minister came under pressure as Johnson and Labour leader Ed Miliband held separate events to press the case for employers to pay workers a living wage, well above the minimum rate for adults of £6.19, to ensure they can enjoy a decent standard of living.

The living wage rate outside London will also rise by 25p to £7.45, benefiting thousands of workers, it was announced on Monday.

The London mayor unveiled a newly designed trademark that formally recognises and accredits employers who pay the London living wage, courtesy of the Living Wage Foundation, which hopes the mark will become as recognisable as the Fair Trade logo. But it emerged that the Greater London Authority, which Johnson oversees, has yet to be added to the 76-strong list of accredited employers and that none of the five London borough councils on the list is Tory-controlled. The GLA is on a separate list of 44 employers in the process of being accredited.

However, Johnson, who has for the past eight years championed the LLW, established in 2005 by his predecessor, Ken Livingstone, pressed home the benefits for London firms of paying a rate £2.36 above the minimum wage.

He said "some of the most red-blooded capitalist firms you can imagine" were signing up to the LLW because they realised it helped to create productivity as well as ensuring staff can enjoy a decent standard of living, and urged Conservatives up the river in Westminster to follow suit.

Cameron hailed the living wage as a "good and attractive idea" before the general election in 2010 and vowed that as the biggest employer in the country the government would take the lead to ensure "fairness will begin to be hardwired into pay scales up and down the country". But two years on, the LLW has yet to be systematically deployed across Whitehall. Johnson urged Cameron's government to support low-paid workers in the capital.

Johnson said: "I would like to see Whitehall generally in London, I would like to see Labour councils, Tory councils, Liberal councils, supporting low-paid workers and pay the London living wage.

"A huge number of public sector workers could benefit from this." Pressed on the fact that he is the only Conservative in the capital to show leadership by implementing the LLW rate to all GLA staff, Johnson said: "I've certainly heard David Cameron support this and give very clear and categorical backing for what we are doing, so that's good."

However, Johnson declined to be drawn on whether the government should lift the minimum wage to the living wage rates for inside and outside the capital. "I certainly think it's important to pay people decently but we've got particular issues here in London which means the London living wage for the capital."

The PM's spokesman said the government supported the living wage and would like businesses to pay it. But he said it would not be possible for government to impose the living wage as a condition of giving business to government contractors since its legal advice is that this would breach EU's procurement laws. He said most government employees were paid the living wage but this might not be the case with all contractors. He added: "We are not proposing to require it of businesses. Requiring people to pay it would reduce the flexibility businesses have and could ultimately be a bad thing for jobs."

Speaking from Islington town hall in north London, Ed Miliband vowed to address Britain's "living standards crisis" by delivering a living wage of at least £7.20 an hour to millions of people in the public and private sector. He met Labour council leaders from across the UK already implementing the pay structure and promised to find ways to help other businesses become living wage employers. Labour pointed out that the five London boroughs already accredited, and a further five in the process of accreditation, are all Labour-controlled councils and contrasted this to the Conservative record in the capital.

Miliband said: "There are almost 5 million people in Britain who aren't earning the living wage: people who got up early this morning, spent hours getting to work – who are putting in all the effort they can – but who often don't get paid enough to look after their families, to heat their homes, feed their kids, care for elderly relatives and plan for the future. Too many people in Britain are doing the right thing and doing their bit, helping to build the prosperity on which our country depends, but aren't sharing fairly in the rewards.

"It's not how it should be in Britain. It's not how we will succeed as a country in the years ahead because we can't go on with an economy that works for a few at the top and not for most people. We need to change it."

In London, an estimated 11,500 workers have benefited since the LLW was introduced by Livingstone. Johnson said the new rate of £8.55 will be worth £4.5m a year for lower-paid workers.

Johnson blamed the fact that the Greater London authority was still in the process of securing accreditation on "historic" GLA contracts that would see the LLW implemented once they were renewed. Aides to Johnson said the GLA was implementing the LLW "100%" for its staff but not yet for all external contractors, and that the paperwork for such a large organisation, encompassing five functional bodies, meant the accreditation process was taking longer.

Rhys Moore, director of the Living Wage Foundation, said the living wage movement was growing as more employers realised the benefits of paying the rate. "Like Fair Trade, it represents a new standard for responsible business. We hope to see the living wage mark and symbol spreading further and further across organisations in the UK."

More than 80 employers have been formally accredited to the foundation, with 47 awaiting accreditation and a further 73 saying they are committed to paying the rate. Around 200 employers in London support the campaign, ranging from banks to universities.
Well, I'm glad someone who wears the blue rosette is acknowledging the fact that there's a problem, but what the hell is the point in having a National Minimum Wage in the first place if the only thing compelling employers to offer a salary that's within shouting distance of the cost of living is peer pressure?
And £8.55 an hour seems like a rather optimistic estimate (dare I call it a Conservative one?) of how much it costs to actually live in this country, if by "live" you mean a somewhat higher quality of life than just muddling through from pay packet to pay packet.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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While a nice sentiment, Raising the minimum wage without some sort of action on the other end of the wage spectrum will just a cause inflation. If you have to pay the guy on at the kebab stand ten pounds an hour don't expect people to be able to afford many kebabs.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Col. Crackpot wrote:While a nice sentiment, Raising the minimum wage without some sort of action on the other end of the wage spectrum will just a cause inflation. If you have to pay the guy on at the kebab stand ten pounds an hour don't expect people to be able to afford many kebabs.
Even if it means the people who are likely to buy kebabs -very much a working class delicacy in this country- have more money to spend on them?
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Zaune wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:While a nice sentiment, Raising the minimum wage without some sort of action on the other end of the wage spectrum will just a cause inflation. If you have to pay the guy on at the kebab stand ten pounds an hour don't expect people to be able to afford many kebabs.
Even if it means the people who are likely to buy kebabs -very much a working class delicacy in this country- have more money to spend on them?
So replace Kebab stand with local grocery store or pharmacy. You also have to be careful with raising the minimum wage that you don't price people out of the labor market. If the economic value of one hour of work from a given person is only £7, then if the minimum wage is £8, they are going to have a harder time finding work under a higher minimum wage. I am not arguing against a minimum wage, I am simply reminding you to think about the possible consequences of raising said wage.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Zaune wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:While a nice sentiment, Raising the minimum wage without some sort of action on the other end of the wage spectrum will just a cause inflation. If you have to pay the guy on at the kebab stand ten pounds an hour don't expect people to be able to afford many kebabs.
Even if it means the people who are likely to buy kebabs -very much a working class delicacy in this country- have more money to spend on them?
Yes, because once the market adjusts to the increased labor cost of producing that kebab the real cost in terms of the percentage of income paid to have it, you'l be right back whre you started. AlosAlso mr kebab saleman can say goodbye to his customers from outside the living wage zone, they are are priced out of the market.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Col. Crackpot wrote: Yes, because once the market adjusts to the increased labor cost of producing that kebab the real cost in terms of the percentage of income paid to have it, you'l be right back whre you started. AlosAlso mr kebab saleman can say goodbye to his customers from outside the living wage zone, they are are priced out of the market.
Only if labour cost is a significant element in the production of kebab meat. Which, since it's mostly mechanically processed is pretty unlikely.

And people don't commute for kebabs, they get them from wherever is on the stumble from the club/pub to home.
TimothyC wrote:So replace Kebab stand with local grocery store or pharmacy. You also have to be careful with raising the minimum wage that you don't price people out of the labor market. If the economic value of one hour of work from a given person is only £7, then if the minimum wage is £8, they are going to have a harder time finding work under a higher minimum wage. I am not arguing against a minimum wage, I am simply reminding you to think about the possible consequences of raising said wage.
The concept of a living wage is that if people are earning less that that amount they cannot afford the basic goods and services they require. They're already priced out of much economic activity, which means that either the market will have to adjust by reducing prices because its goods and services are going unsold, or wages will have to increase.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Col. Crackpot wrote:
Yes, because once the market adjusts to the increased labor cost of producing that kebab the real cost in terms of the percentage of income paid to have it, you'l be right back whre you started. AlosAlso mr kebab saleman can say goodbye to his customers from outside the living wage zone, they are are priced out of the market.
Some quick currency conversion shows that £8.55 is roughly $13.65 an hour in US dollars which does sound high but that's by the US standard. Our minim wage if it were pegged to inflation would be right at around 9.50$ an hour or roughly £5.97. However minim wage is not pegged to inflation so the current minim wage is 7.25$ or £4.54.

With all that said, the thing is increasing the wages on workers is that Crackpot is right there is a break point where increasing wages increases prices to compensate... but I'd argue that £8.55 depending on local conditions is not pushing it. The thing is yes kebabs might be bought but our society very much is in a situation where the poor simply have to many lacks for any one kebab vender to notice without a large increase in wages. There is a break even point but I wonder not being familiar with the household goods cost if even £8.55 is enough for the market to start pricing it.

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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Increasing wages will mostly result in decreased investment, layoffs, and a slight price increase. This is because the minimum wage is a price floor, raising it will decrease demand for labor, decrease business expectations of future profits (since higher wages will impact the bottom line), and prices wouldn't increase as much since unemployment is higher.
Of course the only reason why prices are going up is because of inflationary monetary policy. Which steals the purchasing power from anyone with a fixed or stagnant income.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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ryacko wrote:Increasing wages will mostly result in decreased investment, layoffs, and a slight price increase. This is because the minimum wage is a price floor, raising it will decrease demand for labor, decrease business expectations of future profits (since higher wages will impact the bottom line), and prices wouldn't increase as much since unemployment is higher.
Of course the only reason why prices are going up is because of inflationary monetary policy. Which steals the purchasing power from anyone with a fixed or stagnant income.
Care to back any of that up?
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Yeah. Or, y'know, people who have more money to spend start spending more money and business sees the costs of higher wages offset by increased sales.

Or does economics only trickle down?
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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it's irrelevent either way since UK inflation rate is only 2.2%
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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bobalot wrote:
ryacko wrote:Increasing wages will mostly result in decreased investment, layoffs, and a slight price increase. This is because the minimum wage is a price floor, raising it will decrease demand for labor, decrease business expectations of future profits (since higher wages will impact the bottom line), and prices wouldn't increase as much since unemployment is higher.
Of course the only reason why prices are going up is because of inflationary monetary policy. Which steals the purchasing power from anyone with a fixed or stagnant income.
Care to back any of that up?
if you cannot understand how raising the price for something decreases the demand for it then you lack the required intellect to be a part of this conversation.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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If you can't understand that raising wages doesn't necessarily mean raising prices, you can also join that group.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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weemadando wrote:If you can't understand that raising wages doesn't necessarily mean raising prices, you can also join that group.
cute. Because the economy is clearly a vacuum and there will be no adverse affects of arbitrary wage increases. Again, unless there is action on the top end of the wage scale you can keep shoveling shit against the tide. $50 an hour would be great but if a loaf of bread ends up costing $20 whats the fucking point?
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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You know, people who spout "warnings" about minimum pay are usually the same saying that tired nonsense about Laffer curve and taxes. Sadly, none of these halfwits stops to think that according to their arguments, state would have highest tax earnings at 0% tax rate while investment, labor demand and employment would be highest at 0$ worker pay. Then we would never have layoffs or rising prices! :roll:

Hint - maybe, just maybe, we're below what economy would consider optimal tax rate or minimum wage.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Irbis wrote:You know, people who spout "warnings" about minimum pay are usually the same saying that tired nonsense about Laffer curve and taxes. Sadly, none of these halfwits stops to think that according to their arguments, state would have highest tax earnings at 0% tax rate while investment, labor demand and employment would be highest at 0$ worker pay. Then we would never have layoffs or rising prices! :roll:

Hint - maybe, just maybe, we're below what economy would consider optimal tax rate or minimum wage.
And then there are people who think simple knee jerk wage increases without other reforms such as structuring the tax code for high income folks to force them to re-invest in their businesses or pay a tax penalty are pretty useless and do nothing butkick the can down the road for someone else in a few years.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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weemadando wrote:If you can't understand that raising wages doesn't necessarily mean raising prices, you can also join that group.
Wages are the price of labor. Raising wages is raising a price, directly. Not that this is necessarily bad, but people tend to draw a distinction there where there isn't one.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Or alternately, businesses can seek other efficiencies that aren't staff wages or god forbid, accept a reduction in profit.

This is all micro, not macro of course.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Profit margins in the businesses that often employ minimum wage labor tend to be slim (the margin in the fast food industry in the US is around 8% for the biggest firms). That doesn't leave a lot of room for adjustment to a sudden rise in wages, so they'll usually respond by lowering the number of people in response to a minimum wage rise. For example, when the New Jersey state minimum wage rose by about 18% in 1990, employment in fast food restaurants dropped by 4.6%.

At national levels, it's harder to measure. A minimum wage hike won't have as much of an effect in the short run if labor is only a small fraction of overall costs, if profit margins are high, or if the equilibrium wage in a particular job sector is still above the minimum wage.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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The problem with all the "OH NOES!!!!! Won't somebody think of the profits???" whining is that we had all this when Labour originally brought in the minimum wage. Businesses were going to go to the wall, people laid off, recruitment reduced, etc.

None of this happened. It's the same as the "If taxes are too high, everyone will take their money abroad and the world will end" spiel. It's an empty threat in the main.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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What makes it tricky is comparing the short-term reaction in business to the longer-term one. Businesses usually have much less flexibility in their labor requirements in the short term, so they'll often eat the wage increase - or shut down if they can't even break even. Longer term, though, it can prevent the creation of new jobs.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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What about the long term consequences of a low minimum wage on the workforce? I wouldn't think those are stellar either; it can mean an awful lot of people working 50 and 60 hour weeks if things get bad enough.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Simon_Jester wrote:What about the long term consequences of a low minimum wage on the workforce? I wouldn't think those are stellar either; it can mean an awful lot of people working 50 and 60 hour weeks if things get bad enough.
It depends on what the equilibrium wages are for particular job sectors. A minimum wage that falls below the equilibrium wage for a particular job sector is pretty much pointless. Nobody will work for that wage anyways, not unless there are other ways to supplement their income with it (like with waitering and tips).

It's one reason why I don't like it as a form of public policy. It'd be much more effective to just subsidize the hourly wages of people who fall across a particular spectrum of (low) wages, in a way so that people aren't penalized when they increase their wages from work.
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Guardsman Bass wrote:It's one reason why I don't like it as a form of public policy. It'd be much more effective to just subsidize the hourly wages of people who fall across a particular spectrum of (low) wages, in a way so that people aren't penalized when they increase their wages from work.
Except that means you have to increase your tax income to artificially prop up the profits of employers. (The estimate is that paying the living wage would save £1000 a head for the taxpayer in tax credits and benefits).
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Re: Boris Johnson And The Living Wage Campaign

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Col. Crackpot wrote:
bobalot wrote:
ryacko wrote:Increasing wages will mostly result in decreased investment, layoffs, and a slight price increase. This is because the minimum wage is a price floor, raising it will decrease demand for labor, decrease business expectations of future profits (since higher wages will impact the bottom line), and prices wouldn't increase as much since unemployment is higher.
Of course the only reason why prices are going up is because of inflationary monetary policy. Which steals the purchasing power from anyone with a fixed or stagnant income.
Care to back any of that up?
if you cannot understand how raising the price for something decreases the demand for it then you lack the required intellect to be a part of this conversation.
Hey asshole, he made a number of claims in that post for which he hasn't provided any evidence. Who the fuck made you hall monitor of this thread? or final arbiter of who joins this conversation?
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