Breivik complains about his accommodations

[mr friendly guy]

You can add Russian skin heads to those who like Breivik as well.

[Rogue 11]

That seems to imply there are people who do like you. Is that even possible? Outside of muderous whackjobs like yourself.

You just hit the nail on the head on WHY he isn't allowed to corrospond with those people anymore. A bit too much worry that he can influence them to act on their murderous whackjob opinions. Free speech is fine, encouraging people to severe criminal action is not.

[PeZook]

"Handcuffs are degrading".

Jesus K. motherfucking christ

Now I do think he has a valid concern or two, like handcuffs being too tight, OTOH I get why guards want to make damn sure he can't try ANYTHING - he's a proven, unrepentant mass murderer, smart and considers the government of Norway to be The Enemy.

I'm sure that he knows this bitching isn't going to go anywhere and just treats it as a way to pass the time, amuse himself and stay relevant. Possibly fight the power by pestering the prison authorities.

[Rogue 11]

I'm sure that he knows this bitching isn't going to go anywhere and just treats it as a way to pass the time, amuse himself and stay relevant. Possibly fight the power by pestering the prison authorities.

On the other hand the effect I hope this have is to keep people who might share his views to look to him as somebody not to respect, and thus hopefully not to emulate.

Ruin what respect he might have, as well as demystifying him from being some sort of bogey man. If this has that effect even a little I am perfectly okay with this getting him back onto the media stage for a little bit.

[ryacko]

Oh, poor baby. Perhaps he'd like to spend some time in an American prison.

In some states, he will get the Death Penalty, get the right to indefinitely appeal, and live in comfort until he dies from natural causes.

Since when are U.S. prisons "comfortable?" I assure you, they are not. Anyway, I want this guy to die of natural causes, long forgotten, having watched his his Aryan dream crumble, and his "movement," if you can call it that, become a pathetic joke.

His movement is already a joke? The movement will continue on regardless, as there will always be a political minority who believe in him.

Personally I believe prisons should have the same level of comfort as a Motel 6 which Norway seems to meet. The entire prison probably has a uniform climate control system anyway, and some rooms just happen to be colder then others.
I seriously doubt a mass murderer is under strain for being isolated, but I do think he should be allowed a typewriter, and a manual for maintaining it.

So, do you think U.S. prisons are better or worse than a Hotel 6? And why a typewriter? Given the moving, metal parts, and the need for tools to maintain it, that just sounds like a bad idea from a safety standpoint. I'd just give him a computer with Microsoft Word or something of that nature.

Worse then Motel 6.

Because computer cords are far safer?
No seriously, either treat him like a human being in accordance to internationally recognized civil rights, or execute him. Computers are potentially more dangerous, and typewriters have been existence, even in prisons, for over a century. However using a typewriter is marginally more difficult then a computer, and he would be forced to type out individual lines. But it would be less strenuous then a pen, and he does have the right to contact the outside world.

[folti78]

Because computer cords are far safer?

Yes, if they are shortened enough* to be useless for anything else than their original function. With a laptop with wifi, you only need the power cord. They are also nearly impossible to take apart without tools or breaking them and contain very few parts that could be used as weapons in a hurry. And can be chained to the desk with a really short chain. Also, nobody makes typewriters anymore, maybe not even in Best Korea.

* whether them being special builds or hidden into a locked cable tray, requiring special tools to get access to. Neither is cheap, nor impossible, but needs some proper planning and preparation by the prison authorities.

As for treating him inhumanely, I'll wait for the verdict of some authorities better than him.

[PeZook]

If you are really worried, just ot give him a cord at all. Give him the laptop in the morning and collect it in the evening, recharge overnight.

[Questor]

If you are really worried, just ot give him a cord at all. Give him the laptop in the morning and collect it in the evening, recharge overnight.

Or take a standard dockable business laptop, build the dock into the desk, and lock the think into the desk. that way he gets it all the time, it has power, but has no exposed cords - plus he doesn't get to use it as a club.

[salm]

Since when are U.S. prisons "comfortable?" I assure you, they are not. Anyway, I want this guy to die of natural causes, long forgotten, having watched his his Aryan dream crumble, and his "movement," if you can call it that, become a pathetic joke.

It would be a lot better if the guy reassessed his views and turned into a person with reasonable political views, renounced his current beliefs and turned into a reasonable member of society.

At least that´s the goal if you assign any value to the rehabilitation part of imprisoning people.

Him having to witness his ideology fade and dying a bitter old asshole is only of use if revenge is your motif.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Since when are U.S. prisons "comfortable?" I assure you, they are not. Anyway, I want this guy to die of natural causes, long forgotten, having watched his his Aryan dream crumble, and his "movement," if you can call it that, become a pathetic joke.

It would be a lot better if the guy reassessed his views and turned into a person with reasonable political views, renounced his current beliefs and turned into a reasonable member of society.

At least that´s the goal if you assign any value to the rehabilitation part of imprisoning people.

Him having to witness his ideology fade and dying a bitter old asshole is only of use if revenge is your motif.

Yes, in an ideal world that would be better. In an ideal world it would rain chocolate milk and snow kind bud from cotton candy clouds, and Brievik would have had this epiphany before he murdered a few dozen people. But in THIS world, its rather too late for the sudden realization that he's an asshole to be of any value except to make him understand that he's where he belongs, as he grows old and dies in prison.

I do value rehabilitation, up to a point. A pretty generous point, actually, but cold-blooded murder in the high double digits is so far beyond that point that its approaching it from the other side.

[salm]

Yes, in an ideal world that would be better. In an ideal world it would rain chocolate milk and snow kind bud from cotton candy clouds, and Brievik would have had this epiphany before he murdered a few dozen people. But in THIS world, its rather too late for the sudden realization that he's an asshole to be of any value except to make him understand that he's where he belongs, as he grows old and dies in prison.

I do value rehabilitation, up to a point. A pretty generous point, actually, but cold-blooded murder in the high double digits is so far beyond that point that its approaching it from the other side.

Well, you´re entitled to your opinion of course.

Personally I´d like to see the guy honestly rehabilitated when he´s released. It´s not impossible that they do release him in a couple of decades. Germany has been releasing RAF terrorists over the last couple of years after doing their time for example.

[Broomstick]

While it is, in theory, possible to reform a murderer and arguably it has even happened on occasion (see Nathan Leopold) it doesn't happen very often.

I personally think Norway would be very foolish to ever let Breivik out of prison. On the other hand, if I were proven wrong and the man later redeems himself I'd be quite happy with the outcome... I just do not expect that to happen.

[salm]

While it is, in theory, possible to reform a murderer and arguably it has even happened on occasion (see Nathan Leopold) it doesn't happen very often.

I personally think Norway would be very foolish to ever let Breivik out of prison. On the other hand, if I were proven wrong and the man later redeems himself I'd be quite happy with the outcome... I just do not expect that to happen.

What´s your source for murderers not reforming very often?
You see, around here most murderers are released sooner or later and I don´t hear that much about them murdering again.

[Simon_Jester]

A lot of murders are individual- they're committed by a person who does it in a rage, or under unusual circumstances. Or in the process of committing another crime, like a robbery. In the first case it's unlikely to happen again- a woman who murders her husband's lover in a jealous rage probably won't be doing that again any time soon. In the latter case, if you can get the criminal to stop robbing, they'll probably stop killing too.

But individuals who show a psychological compulsion to kill (serial killers; it's rare but documented) might not be able to stop. At the very least you're taking a big gamble by letting them go. And someone who kills a huge number of people for political reasons isn't going to be safe unless they change their mind, and you can't make someone change their mind about politics just by imprisoning them.

[Broomstick]

What Simon said. Quite a few murders involve either family (jealous husband killing wife, for example) or someone the murderer knows personally and the murderer kills for personal reasons. That's quite different than someone who methodically plans the murders of complete strangers and carries them out.

[salm]

So is there a source that confirms that politically motivated murderers rarely reform?

At least in case of the RAF terrorists that have been released in the last couple of years it seems to be thought otherwiese.

I agree that imprisoning itself can not change a mind. But in prision you can create environments which can be productive or environments which can be counter productive.

[Broomstick]

So is there a source that confirms that politically motivated murderers rarely reform?

Is there any evidence for the reverse of that, that they often reform?

So, they've released some of these RAF in the "last couple of years"? My quick search indicates that Christian Klar was released despite expressing no remorse for his crimes and that this decision to parole him was not without controversy. Brigitte Mohnhaupt was given a mandatory sentence of 24 years, which she served, and it was, apparently, never proven that she actually did kill anyone herself although she was certainly involved with the group and its assassination attempts. Eva Haule's original sentence was "only" 15 years, which, again, she served. I did get the correct "RAF", yes? Admittedly I haven't studied this in depth and may have missed something so if I did please let me know.

Anyhow - one paroled despite controversy, one served her mandatory 24 years in jail before being paroled, and a third simply served her sentence and was released. That hardly sounds like guaranteed reform to me, especially as I kept seeing "has shown no remorse" over and over again in reference to these folks. Granted there hasn't been a bloodbath in the five years or so since their release and I don't personally know these folks but I think Germany is taking an awful big chance on this. Let's see if they can stay out of trouble for 20 years and not 5 and maybe you'll have some evidence they've reformed.

[folti78]

You can argue that they were killed for the cause, not just for the sheer thrill of it. Now that the cause is dead and RAF itself gone, they have no actual reason to go back killing people. EDIT: Also "you have served your sentence, so we have to let you go" does not mean that the security services doesn't try to keep a tab on them, just in case.

[salm]

You´ve served your sentance doesn´t mean you´ve served your sentance in Germany.
If you´re considered a significan security hazard you can be kept in preventive detention.
Personally i disagree with this method but it exists. (At least until 2013).

<Edit>If I understand correctly they have the same thin in Norway.</edit>

[LaCroix]

Preventive detention is only allowed if you have a high probability of repeat offenses. Even if they still want to fight on - the RAF is dead, they have no organization to fall back on, and neither of them has any assets that could allow them to go terrorist, again. The few anarchist organizations left are either not militant, or consist of people living on the street. But even when released, it isn't as the "Verfassungsschutz" won't keep an eye on them.

Consider someone like Brevik - he would step out and immediately find a home at various right organizations, who would happily fund him for another go at the enemy. The danger of ever letting him go is simply too high. Unless he'd start running a "fight the right menace" campaign from his cell, no one would ever believe him that he is reformed.

[salm]

Preventive detention is only allowed if you have a high probability of repeat offenses. Even if they still want to fight on - the RAF is dead, they have no organization to fall back on, and neither of them has any assets that could allow them to go terrorist, again. The few anarchist organizations left are either not militant, or consist of people living on the street. But even when released, it isn't as the "Verfassungsschutz" won't keep an eye on them.

Consider someone like Brevik - he would step out and immediately find a home at various right organizations, who would happily fund him for another go at the enemy. The danger of ever letting him go is simply too high. Unless he'd start running a "fight the right menace" campaign from his cell, no one would ever believe him that he is reformed.

Possibly. Possibly not.
Anyway, the possibility that he gets released exists. Norway just has to get rid of the preventive detention law and he´ll be released after his sentance is served. His sentance is 21 years, so he´ll still be in good enough shape to commit crimes.
Germanys preventive detention law was ruled unconstutional last year and the rules will have to be changed in 2013. It´s not unreasonable to believe that Norway might change their laws in the future as well.

So, if this happens do we want him to be rehabilitated or not?

It should at least be tried.

So to get back to my actual argument, rehabilitation vs revenge: rehabilitation has a chance of doing something of value. Revenge on the other hand has no value besides revenge itself.
Now some people think revenge is valuable, but like said before everybody is entitled to their opinion.

[LaCroix]

Possibly. Possibly not.
Anyway, the possibility that he gets released exists. Norway just has to get rid of the preventive detention law and he´ll be released after his sentance is served. His sentance is 21 years, so he´ll still be in good enough shape to commit crimes.
Germanys preventive detention law was ruled unconstutional last year and the rules will have to be changed in 2013. It´s not unreasonable to believe that Norway might change their laws in the future as well.

So, if this happens do we want him to be rehabilitated or not?

It should at least be tried.

So to get back to my actual argument, rehabilitation vs revenge: rehabilitation has a chance of doing something of value. Revenge on the other hand has no value besides revenge itself.
Now some people think revenge is valuable, but like said before everybody is entitled to their opinion.

There is still the possibility to transfer people to a ward for mental abnormal criminals, which Brevik would qualify for.

And it's not about revenge, it's about the safety of the rest of the population. It's simply about the needs of one vs the needs of many. He is a proven lunatic, who thinks killing people who disagree with his political views is a necessity. He is capable to plan and execute such attacks. If he doesn't show signs of being reformed (and that's what Swedish prisons are good in), he is not safe to be let out. (And of course you don't see any attempts to reform him, yet. These can only be entertained if the person at least cooperates or actively want's to change. Brevik obviously isn't locked up long enough for realization to kick in, yet.)

I'd love to have him reformed.
I'd dance with joy seeing him take tours in schools and telling children how wrong it was what he did, and that we all should be friends.
I'd gladly settle with him taking a quiet life away from all the right-wing extremists that glorify him, telling them to leave him alone, he was wrong doing what he did.

Now, your turn. Just taking moral high ground is easy. Tell me how you plan to reform him? No wishy-washy platitudes how we need to do it at all cost and stuff. Tell us how it can be done with a man like him.

[salm]

There is still the possibility to transfer people to a ward for mental abnormal criminals, which Brevik would qualify for.

And it's not about revenge, it's about the safety of the rest of the population. It's simply about the needs of one vs the needs of many. He is a proven lunatic, who thinks killing people who disagree with his political views is a necessity. He is capable to plan and execute such attacks. If he doesn't show signs of being reformed (and that's what Swedish prisons are good in), he is not safe to be let out. (And of course you don't see any attempts to reform him, yet. These can only be entertained if the person at least cooperates or actively want's to change. Brevik obviously isn't locked up long enough for realization to kick in, yet.)

I'd love to have him reformed.
I'd dance with joy seeing him take tours in schools and telling children how wrong it was what he did, and that we all should be friends.
I'd gladly settle with him taking a quiet life away from all the right-wing extremists that glorify him, telling them to leave him alone, he was wrong doing what he did.

Now, your turn. Just taking moral high ground is easy. Tell me how you plan to reform him? No wishy-washy platitudes how we need to do it at all cost and stuff. Tell us how it can be done with a man like him.

It is about revenge. At least that´s why I joined the thread. I commented on "Philosopher of Sorts" post which cleary was about revenge.
And I´m not sure why revenge/rehabilitation and security for the population should be mutually exclusive.
In fact I´ve stated that I´d want the guy to be reformed because there are very real possiblities that he´ll be released in the future. And if this happens I´d rather have him rehabilitated than not.

Maybe the RAF example was a bad analogy. Fine. This still doesn´t prove that politically motivated killers hardly ever reform which was a clear statement by Broomstick.

I don´t know where you remark about "moral high ground" comes from either.
Why should I know how to rehabilitate him? And why is it relevant to the discussion for me to know that?

[LaCroix]

It is about revenge. At least that´s why I joined the thread. I commented on "Philosopher of Sorts" post which cleary was about revenge.
And I´m not sure why revenge/rehabilitation and security for the population should be mutually exclusive.
In fact I´ve stated that I´d want the guy to be reformed because there are very real possiblities that he´ll be released in the future. And if this happens I´d rather have him rehabilitated than not.

Maybe the RAF example was a bad analogy. Fine. This still doesn´t prove that politically motivated killers hardly ever reform which was a clear statement by Broomstick.

I don´t know where you remark about "moral high ground" comes from either.
Why should I know how to rehabilitate him? And why is it relevant to the discussion for me to know that?

I didn't know that Philosopher of Sorts' motivations were of any relevance to the incarceration of Brevik. The people who decide over Brevik are those who count, and those (Swedish legal system) have a known bias towards reformation, and a very good score at doing so.
And you know - they also would want him reformed. The political value of a reformed Brevik in the fight against right wingers would be insanely high. But if he isn't rehabilitated, I (and the people who count) would rather see him incarcerated for life than set free. You, on the other hand, state that rehabilitation has to occur, period, because he will be set free. (Which will not happen unless he is reformed, I promise you.)

The problem is that rehabilitation can't be forced upon someone. Incarceration can. I strongly believe that Brevik will end up in a mental ward for "Has delusions that make him a danger to society" reasons, if he keeps up with his act and the prolonged detention system will be toppled. (Which I doubt, it will be stronger regulated, but it probably won't be done away with...)

[Broomstick]

So to get back to my actual argument, rehabilitation vs revenge: rehabilitation has a chance of doing something of value. Revenge on the other hand has no value besides revenge itself.

I don't think anyone here is opposed to rehabilitation. I, personally, just don't think it's likely in this case.

It's not about revenge - it's about protecting everyone else from someone dangerous. That, in my mind, comes before rehabbing Mr. Breivik.