Obama wins White House, Red States petitions to Secede.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Evidently Texas hit the 25k mark...

Still don't expect anything to come of it, but it is surprising how quick that went.

[Broomstick]

You might have heard of the prior case: Union vs. Confederacy, which also ruled unilateral secession illegal. Personally, I find that it made for a more definitive case than Texas vs. White.

I argue with you and you hit me over the head with a brick. It doesn't mean you're right. It means you hit me over the head with a brick.
EDIT: Not going to argue either way on whether secession is allowed. I just find the argument that the war settled the issue to be philosophically unsound.

That's a little like arguing that gravity is "only" a theory.

The Civil War pretty decisively settled the question of whether or not states could unilaterally seceded from the US, and the answer is "no". It might offend your philosophy, but in the real world yes, the war did settle the question.

[SirNitram]

So patriotic they'll run away from their country. It's so much more relaxing when you realize they're whiny-ass tittybabies and mock them.

[Ahriman238]

So now the feds have a few weeks to write up their formal response. I would very much like to volunteer my services in this matter.

[Questor]

"Sherman:Georgia:you"

[Todeswind]

So... How many of those states would you actually miss?

New York and New Jersey.

[Highlord Laan]

I think the response to Texas should be for a carrier group to move into the Gulf a Mexico, followed by "All right. You can succeed if you like."

[Ahriman238]

Can't forgot the precedent set by the Conch Republic. They seceded where others failed.

[Simon_Jester]

I argue with you and you hit me over the head with a brick. It doesn't mean you're right. It means you hit me over the head with a brick.
EDIT: Not going to argue either way on whether secession is allowed. I just find the argument that the war settled the issue to be philosophically unsound.

I'd say what was proved is that the US will enforce the laws already on the books which prevent seceders from doing things that a seceding province would normally want to do. Like take over federal property in the state, or mobilize its own army and fleet.

There are two separate questions in any secession. One is the legality. The other is whether laws on the books will be enforced. A collapsing empire usually falls apart into its component provinces because, while secession is still totally illegal, the laws are not going to be enforced against a determined group of rebels. Every armed rebellion is a test of "will the laws against rebellion be enforced effectively, or can we get away with this?"

Regardless of the legality, two things were established. One, the federal government adheres to an interpretation of the Constitution under which secession is not allowed, because you can't just back out of the Constitution like that. Two, the federal government will enforce that interpretation of the law, carrying out what it sees as a constitutional mandate, instead of just letting a seceding state go.

[Zinegata]

Technically, given that it is now clearly stated in the Constitution that it is an act of treason to secede from the United States, shouldn't these folks be sent to jail?

[Terralthra]

Technically, given that it is now clearly stated in the Constitution that it is an act of treason to secede from the United States, shouldn't these folks be sent to jail?

It is? Where?

Edit: specifically, the Constitution defines treason as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

Nothing there about secession. Indeed, that word does not occur in the Constitution, as far as I can tell.

[ryacko]

The Insurrection Act and this constitutional section:
"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union,
suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"
provides for it.
The difference between insurrection and secession is pretty much potato potatoe.

[Terralthra]

I don't see how that makes secession treason. Can you explain?

[Zinegata]

Huh. I thought secession was banned in the contitution in the aftermath of the Civil War to prevent a repeat. May have remembered wrong.

[UnderAGreySky]

I have an alternative suggestion: All the secessionists can gather into one state and voluntarily quit the union. The remaining 49 can then grant Puerto Rico full states' rights with the same number of senators and reps - or do a nationwide readjustment depending on which people leave - and it will all balance out.

As a bonus, the stars on the flag retain their order (though 9-8-9-8-9-8 has a charm to it I suppose).

[LaCroix]

Considering I live in Missouri with no way to leave the state...I very well would be unhappy if it went through here

No problem - you would just need to contact the US embassy in Missouri and ask for assistance to return home...

[streetad]

If a petition signed by a few thousand nutters was sufficient grounds for secession, Scotland would not only have seceded from the UK but collapsed into several dozen bickering micro-states by now....

[Lagmonster]

Whenever you hear about things like this, picture a kid's club in a treehouse. One day, they all take up a collection for ice cream. Some vote for Vanilla, but the majority of the kids vote for Strawberry. So they buy a tub of strawberry ice cream. Then the kids who wanted vanilla say, "That's dumb. Strawberry is dumb. You're dumb. I want out of this stupid club and I'll make my own club where we only eat Vanilla."

Then, they stay anyway and sulkingly eat the strawberry ice cream, because they the alternative is that they get no ice cream at all, plus building a treehouse is really hard.

[mr friendly guy]

So now the feds have a few weeks to write up their formal response. I would very much like to volunteer my services in this matter.

Will that involve pictures of Sherman by any chance and references to making the south howl?

[CaptJodan]

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's interesting how the last attempt at succession was born out in large part due to slavery and black rights. Now this one is because a black president got re-elected.

Nothing seems to make the US desire succession like fear of the black man.

[salm]

Whenever you hear about things like this, picture a kid's club in a treehouse. One day, they all take up a collection for ice cream. Some vote for Vanilla, but the majority of the kids vote for Strawberry. So they buy a tub of strawberry ice cream. Then the kids who wanted vanilla say, "That's dumb. Strawberry is dumb. You're dumb. I want out of this stupid club and I'll make my own club where we only eat Vanilla."

Then, they stay anyway and sulkingly eat the strawberry ice cream, because they the alternative is that they get no ice cream at all, plus building a treehouse is really hard.

Indeed. I mean, they don´t even move to other tree houses where they can get as much vanilla as they want to.
Remember the elections when Bush got elected and reelected? Tons of liberal Americans were furious and claimed that they´d move to Austrialia/Canada/Europe/wherever. Everybody knew that they were blowing hot air and that they´d keep eating strawberry ice cream because they´d notice that moving to other tree house is, well, not really hard but inconvenient.
We´ve got the same sort of dumb ass over here, only, for some reason there seem to be less, or they´re less vocal.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

There are two separate questions in any secession. One is the legality. The other is whether laws on the books will be enforced. A collapsing empire usually falls apart into its component provinces because, while secession is still totally illegal, the laws are not going to be enforced against a determined group of rebels. Every armed rebellion is a test of "will the laws against rebellion be enforced effectively, or can we get away with this?"

About the whole enforcement thing, who controls what in the US armed forces? The states themselves control only the national guard (army and air) while the federal government controls the regulars? If that's the case, I hardly think America won't enforce these laws against rebellion (which even if they don't exist, the government most likely can charge the secessionists with something). And yes, I know that I'm looking at several (thousand) steps ahead of the current situation.

[TheHammer]

Petitioning the government for secession certainly isn't treason. That's trying to work within the system. Now, if the petition is denied and they say "Fuck you we are gonna secede anyway!" then you've got some broken laws.

That being said, this is just a very small minority throwing a tantrum. The response to this online petition should be a simple "no, please grow up" but I expect it will be more diplomatic with the "no". They'll get over it and move on.

[Ahriman238]

So now the feds have a few weeks to write up their formal response. I would very much like to volunteer my services in this matter.

Will that involve pictures of Sherman by any chance and references to making the south howl?

Oh, of course. More towards the end though. It might be amusing to first list all the federal funding and programs they won't have anymore, on account of being an independent state. I know how libertarians, Texans especially, love to suckle the federal teat then turn around and proclaim how independent they are.

Then I'd point out that the number or names on the petition would be lucky to get it passed on a town meeting, much less the state/federal level. That is somewhat of an exaggeration, but necessary I think to introduce the concept of scale. Perhaps instead of moving all the secessionists to one state we could let them have a small city, be a landlocked micro-nation?

Then I would imply they were cowards for wanting to leave the nation purely because their man lost a popularity contest when they STILL control the house, that the nation would be better off without them, and they can hardly call themselves REAL Americans when they've made it clear they no longer want to be Americans. I wouldn't say any of this directly, so it would probably fly over 90% of their heads.

Then I would present Sherman, and explain the reference since I doubt any of these people know squat about history. It's important to frame this in terms of historical secession and the response thereof, and to highlight the plight of a tiny new nation that is "So far from God, so close to the United States." (Diaz)

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's interesting how the last attempt at succession was born out in large part due to slavery and black rights. Now this one is because a black president got re-elected.

Nothing seems to make the US desire succession like fear of the black man.

Depends. As I alluded to earlier, the last attempt at secession happened in the 1970s, when Key West Florida formed the Conch Republic in protest of the US Government's setting up customs on Rt 1 to the mainland. In the course of a single day, they seceded, declared war with the US, surrendered to the US (coastguard/naval station is right on the island) and sued for a billion dollars in foreign aid.

It really, really helps that they treated the whole thing as a big joke from the start, but there was serious resentment there over having to go through customs when traveling inside their own damn country. And I know for a fact that the Key West Airport still flies the flag they came up with, also available in a dozen tourist shops in old town. Anyway, happy ending all around, because their secession made the evening news, and the feds pulled down the customs station.

At least, until they revived the concept a few years later when the US staged a training exercise invasion of the island without telling anyone first.

[JediToren]

The best part of this is that there are two or three petitions for many of the states, so half of these jokers didn't even read the list to see if anyone else posted it first. Idiots.