Israeli air strike kills Hamas military chief Jabari

[Crazedwraith]

The head of the military wing of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas has been killed during a series of Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip.


Ahmed Said Khalil al-Jabari and another Hamas official died when the car they were travelling in was hit in Gaza City
.
It was part of a wider Israeli operation against militant groups in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip.

It follows a wave of rocket attacks against Israel from the territory.

Outside the hospital where Mr Jabari's body was taken, thousands of angry Gaza residents chanted "retaliation" and "We want you to hit Tel Aviv tonight", according to the Associated Press news agency.

Gaza's interior ministry said a further four Palestinians had died in the attacks across Gaza.

A number of injured civilians, including a badly burned young child, were seen being taken to hospital in Gaza City.

Militants in Gaza have fired more than 110 rockets towards southern Israel since Saturday, when four soldiers were wounded in an anti-tank missile attack on an Israeli army jeep.

Before Wednesday's operation, six Palestinians had been killed in the ensuing Israeli military strikes on the Gaza Strip in response.
Israeli Defence Force (IDF) spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich said Mr Jabari had "a lot of blood on his hands".

She told BBC News that "close to 20" sites in Gaza had been targeted in a "limited" operation, with the strikes aiming to destroy rocket-firing capabilities.

"The operation against Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other organisations has two goals: to protect Israeli civilians and target the terror capability of these organisations," she added.

On its Twitter feed, the Israeli military said the operation could be escalated further. "All options are on the table. If necessary, the IDF is ready to initiate a ground operation in Gaza," it said.

Mr Jabari, who was 46, is the most senior Hamas official to be killed in the Gaza Strip since the major Israeli offensive four years ago.
Israel's Shin Bet security service said he had been responsible for "all terrorist activities against Israel from Gaza" in the last decade.

"Jabari was responsible for financing and directing military operations and attacks against Israel. His elimination today is a message to Hamas officials in Gaza that if they continue promoting terrorism against Israel, they will be hurt," it said.

Hamas spokesman Abu Zuhri said: "Israel will regret the moment they even thought of doing this."

Saeb Erekat of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the separate West Bank territory, condemned the assassination "in the strongest terms".

"We hold Israel fully responsible for the consequences of this new act of aggression," he added.

Israel has killed several senior Hamas figures in similar operations, including the movement's founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, in 2004.
The BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza City says the sound of gunfire echoed through the streets after mosques broadcast the news of Mr Jabari's death.

There are fears the attack could lead to a major escalation of violence between Hamas and Israel, he adds.

Following the Israeli strikes, neighbouring Egypt's foreign ministry issued a strongly critical statement.

"Foreign Minister Mohamed Kamel Amr condemned the series of air strikes that Israel is currently conducting against Gaza Strip and which led to the killing of Ahmed al-Jabari," it said.

"He called on Israel to stop its strikes on Gaza Strip immediately."

The BBC's Kevin Connolly, in Cairo, says Egypt's reaction to events in Gaza will be followed closely.

It is the first time violence has reached this pitch of intensity since the events of the Arab Spring brought to power a president drawn from the ranks of the Muslim Brotherhood, the same organisation in which Hamas has its roots.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called for an "immediate de-escalation of tensions".

The British Foreign Office issued a statement saying: "We continue to call on all sides to exercise restraint to prevent a dangerous escalation that would be in no-one's interests."

Looks like the Isreali are on a roll at the moment.

[Sidewinder]

Considering Hamas has repeatedly violated ceasefires and attacked Israel with rockets, complaints that Israel committed an "act of aggression," sound like a kettle calling a pot "black."

[Feil]

Of course. Everything is always retaliation for something else, which in turn was retaliation for something else, which was retaliation for something else... it continues until somebody is willing to stop, or one side is utterly destroyed. And until it stops, people that don't have anything to do with it continue to get hurt. The only thing I see to be happy about here is that Israel has guided missiles, so they can hurt relatively fewer people that don't have anything to do with it in the process of continuing the feud.

[Grumman]

Of course. Everything is always retaliation for something else, which in turn was retaliation for something else, which was retaliation for something else... it continues until somebody is willing to stop.

No, it continues until everybody is willing to stop. It's not enough that you stop giving the other side new excuses to try to kill you if they keep dredging up old excuses anyway.

[weemadando]

Apparently one of the victims was a local BBC correspondent's 11 month old son.

And btw, fuck your "guided missile" logic.

Gaza doesn't have shell & missile tracking radar, intercept & point defence systems nor a reliable warning & shelter system. Also you can guide something all you like, but you're still putting several kilos (at an absolute minimum) of high explosive into a densely populated area.

Honestly, both sides of this conflict fucking infuriate me, they bend to the whims of their most extreme factions and have no interest in a solution where the other side is left with anything, even their lives.

In the meantime, let's have more dead babies and gloating from everyone please.

[Omeganian]

The problem is the apparent shortage of examples proving the efficiency of other methods.

[weemadando]

I mean, we could always ask them to try not waging a genocidal campaign of extermination against each other, but apparently that's too hard for them both.

[Omeganian]

It's just that such a request can be a bit hard to hear over all the alarms and explosions.

[Feil]

And btw, fuck your "guided missile" logic.

Gaza doesn't have shell & missile tracking radar, intercept & point defence systems nor a reliable warning & shelter system. Also you can guide something all you like, but you're still putting several kilos (at an absolute minimum) of high explosive into a densely populated area.

If you somehow looked at my post and concluded that I thought that using guided missiles makes this a positive outcome, rather than being a small mitigating factor in another entry in a long series of tragedies, I suggest taking a second between your kneejerk reactions and posting to actually read what was said. If you actually mean that you think indiscriminate artillery strikes and targeted guided missile attacks are interchangeable in regards to their contribution to hurting innocents, then I would be interested in seeing your reasons for thinking so.

[weemadando]

I don't think they're interchangeable and I wish that neither was "necessary".

It just shits me that I see everyone talking up the "oh guided missile, surgical strike" yadda yadda yadda and then not understanding the whole issue with it.

And also in terms of casualties they aren't comparable. Because for the reasons I've given, despite tens of rockets/mortars being launched Israel has taken what, 3 casualties in the past week? Meanwhile this single strike back has caused significantly more despite at least being targeted.

There is no good solution here. That's the fucking problem.

[ryacko]

Most of those rockets and mortars being launched at Israel are either intercepted or miss by miles, while Israelis also go into their bomb shelters.

Most of these surgical targets are in dense areas.
Pity terrorists don't live in cabins at desolate areas.

[Justforfun000]

I usually refrain from posting anything in relation to IVP for obvious reasons..and I am not going to start with anything declarative. I am just honestly asking what else can be expected from these types of exchanges..lets be realistic, if Canada was in the same boat (lets totally pretend..)..and was firing missles into the northern borders of the US, I am quite certain America would have zero tolerance for this, demand immediate ceasefire and apologies and take ANY and all military steps up to and including invading and attacking the people and places involved in order to secure their safety from further attacks.

I find it amazing that Israel always has to be held up to this extreme judgment and condemnation when it comes to their retaliation. Violence caused by offensive military attacks are going to be answered. The underlying reasons and justifications on both sides for their war are not the relevant point for suggesting things shouldn't be escalated.

I am well aware of the fault of both sides in many respects. I read Mike's treatise on the basic clusterfuck years ago so I realize that both sides have to grow up and compromise. Period. However it also seems to be a fact, (correct me if I'm wrong), that it's never Israel starting the conflict violence after periods of quiet. It's always them responding and retaliating. If so, how can anyone blame them for protecting their people? War is never going to be pretty and casualties WILL happen to innocents as well. You can't avoid it entirely.

What else can be done? Is there a clear mandate that should be suggested/emphasized or even potentially enforced by the Global community?

[Irbis]

However it also seems to be a fact, (correct me if I'm wrong), that it's never Israel starting the conflict violence after periods of quiet. It's always them responding and retaliating. If so, how can anyone blame them for protecting their people? War is never going to be pretty and casualties WILL happen to innocents as well. You can't avoid it entirely.

Well, technically, there's this. Had it been Palestinian group doing it, JDAM would be already heading their way. Though, yes, Palestine has a lot of skeletons in their closet, but Israel has the power to pretty much end this conflict in less than a year, and as long as they don't do so, they beat the greater part of the fault.

[Block]

However it also seems to be a fact, (correct me if I'm wrong), that it's never Israel starting the conflict violence after periods of quiet. It's always them responding and retaliating. If so, how can anyone blame them for protecting their people? War is never going to be pretty and casualties WILL happen to innocents as well. You can't avoid it entirely.

Well, technically, there's this. Had it been Palestinian group doing it, JDAM would be already heading their way. Though, yes, Palestine has a lot of skeletons in their closet, but Israel has the power to pretty much end this conflict in less than a year, and as long as they don't do so, they beat the greater part of the fault.

Really? Cause I feel like they deserve the greater part of the credit for not ending it the other way, which they have the capability to do in a matter of weeks. They are far from perfect, but the restraint they've shown when compared with most of the other "civilized" nations in the world, including my own, is pretty admirable.

[Zadius]

However it also seems to be a fact, (correct me if I'm wrong), that it's never Israel starting the conflict violence after periods of quiet. It's always them responding and retaliating. If so, how can anyone blame them for protecting their people? War is never going to be pretty and casualties WILL happen to innocents as well. You can't avoid it entirely.

Well, technically, there's this. Had it been Palestinian group doing it, JDAM would be already heading their way. Though, yes, Palestine has a lot of skeletons in their closet, but Israel has the power to pretty much end this conflict in less than a year, and as long as they don't do so, they beat the greater part of the fault.

Really? Cause I feel like they deserve the greater part of the credit for not ending it the other way, which they have the capability to do in a matter of weeks. They are far from perfect, but the restraint they've shown when compared with most of the other "civilized" nations in the world, including my own, is pretty admirable.

They deserve credit for not committing genocide?

[Justforfun000]

In regards to that link above Irbis, that's a fair thing to say...I guess 'technically' there is some action done by Israeli people but of course these are civilians..not even legally representing a government or their actions so it sounds like they are treated as hooligans even within their own country.

It's enough to read quotes like this: ""Faithless Jews who don't fear God can call me a terrorist if they want. I don't care what they say about me. I only care what God thinks. I act for him and him alone."

Love these kind of statements. Anyone who is even nominally on their own side as a fellow Jew is automatically branded as 'faithless' if they don't share their delusional belief that their ACTIONS are what "God" thinks! How unbelievably arrogant and self-deluded can you get!

It's no wonder many people in the world not enmeshed in this religious bullshit just feel like throwing up their hands and saying let them deal with it and keep us out of it! Bah

[Ekiqa]

I usually refrain from posting anything in relation to IVP for obvious reasons..and I am not going to start with anything declarative. I am just honestly asking what else can be expected from these types of exchanges..lets be realistic, if Canada was in the same boat (lets totally pretend..)..and was firing missles into the northern borders of the US, I am quite certain America would have zero tolerance for this, demand immediate ceasefire and apologies and take ANY and all military steps up to and including invading and attacking the people and places involved in order to secure their safety from further attacks.

You dont seem to grasp the entirety of the situation.

The situation is, Canada, of 30 million, occupies 50% of the USA, and is forcing the US population into smaller and smaller areas.

Any rock thrown by a US citizen at a Canadian invader is met with by deadly force.

THAT is the situation.

[Block]

I usually refrain from posting anything in relation to IVP for obvious reasons..and I am not going to start with anything declarative. I am just honestly asking what else can be expected from these types of exchanges..lets be realistic, if Canada was in the same boat (lets totally pretend..)..and was firing missles into the northern borders of the US, I am quite certain America would have zero tolerance for this, demand immediate ceasefire and apologies and take ANY and all military steps up to and including invading and attacking the people and places involved in order to secure their safety from further attacks.

You dont seem to grasp the entirety of the situation.

The situation is, Canada, of 30 million, occupies 50% of the USA, and is forcing the US population into smaller and smaller areas.

Any rock thrown by a US citizen at a Canadian invader is met with by deadly force.

THAT is the situation.

Inaccurate in the extreme but there's an IvP moratorium, so I don't think we're supposed to discuss this correct?

[weemadando]

No, you're right. Because management doesn't trust people to actually talk about the issue as they may have to censure someone who's been here for years or a moderator or something.

*edit* Unless it turns into more shooting & bombing in which case we can breathlessly gush over technology & tactics, but don't go anywhere near talking about the politics of it, because some people have opinions.

[Justforfun000]

You dont seem to grasp the entirety of the situation.

The situation is, Canada, of 30 million, occupies 50% of the USA, and is forcing the US population into smaller and smaller areas.

Any rock thrown by a US citizen at a Canadian invader is met with by deadly force.

THAT is the situation.

Inaccurate in the extreme but there's an IvP moratorium, so I don't think we're supposed to discuss this correct?

Frustrating..but I respect the rules and if we cannot delve into it, I won't. But even that example was interesting and highlight parts I'm trying to fully understand..to some people it may seem like old hat and rehashed to death, but as for myself and probably many others we haven't looked THAT carefully into the whole thing and opinion pieces and posts go in and out both ears and leave a jumble of confusion unless you are dedicated to studying it meticulously.

I only recently have gotten interested, involved and doing my best to learn about politics and the world problems. I'm the first to admit I need to learn a lot. If I can ask innocuous enough questions without a flamewar starting maybe I'll be able to glean some nuggets of understanding here..

So just to go back to hopefully safe ground...what should Israel do as an ethical and fair response when they are being attacked by Hamas? Physically. Politically. Militarily.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think we can talk about the politics of the present situation, but we can't start arguing too much about the long history of the conflict. So no dredging up arguments about what happened in 1948, or 1967. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Mod Gods.

Which is probably a good thing. Go look up some of the old IvP discussions before the moratorium was put in place. They were mostly just circular shitfests.

So just to go back to hopefully safe ground...what should Israel do as an ethical and fair response when they are being attacked by Hamas? Physically. Politically. Militarily.

Shoot down the rockets, hit back at the places they're shooting rockets from. Don't engage in leadership assassinations, especially assassinations targeting the leadership of a faction that wasn't actively shooting at you (the latest rockets before the Israeli assault were actually from Islamic Jihad, not Hamas - although now that it's on, they are shooting at Israel).

Incidentally, it looks like Iron Dome missed a few rockets.

[Irbis]

In regards to that link above Irbis, that's a fair thing to say...I guess 'technically' there is some action done by Israeli people but of course these are civilians..not even legally representing a government or their actions so it sounds like they are treated as hooligans even within their own country.

To be fair, a lot of groups attacking Israel from, say, Gaza or Lebanon, are also small gangs that refuse to listen to any of three 'official' Palestinian governments.

It's enough to read quotes like this: ""Faithless Jews who don't fear God can call me a terrorist if they want. I don't care what they say about me. I only care what God thinks. I act for him and him alone."

Change one word and you can put these into Hamas mouth.

Love these kind of statements. Anyone who is even nominally on their own side as a fellow Jew is automatically branded as 'faithless' if they don't share their delusional belief that their ACTIONS are what "God" thinks! How unbelievably arrogant and self-deluded can you get!

Yeah, it's sad. Pretty girl that has every possibility with achieving something great... That has brain corroded with religious hatred instead. And people wonder why I despise every law written with some religion in mind

Though, I do wonder how exactly 20 year old girl can commit acts of vandalo-terrorism on Palestinian side. Ok, settlements are on Palestinian side of the border, but I'd expect someone acting in self defence happening to her by now.

Incidentally, it looks like Iron Dome missed a few rockets.

Or just ran out of counter-rockets, which is why I argued ID was made along worst possible lines as a defensive system some time ago.

[Block]

Shoot down the rockets, hit back at the places they're shooting rockets from. Don't engage in leadership assassinations, especially assassinations targeting the leadership of a faction that wasn't actively shooting at you (the latest rockets before the Israeli assault were actually from Islamic Jihad, not Hamas - although now that it's on, they are shooting at Israel).

Incidentally, it looks like Iron Dome missed a few rockets.

Iron Dome missed a bunch, which isn't surprising. There were actually rockets from both Al-Qassam and Islamic Jihad launched before Israel escalated things again. Also, they are trying to destroy the launch sites, but a lot of them are in very densely populated areas.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its more an issue of nothing exists to destroy, you can fire these rockets out of a steel tube in a bipod, or a dirt ramp for that matter, other then the big one they put into Tel Aviv which would need a large steel tube on a very large bipod, or more likely a tube built into a building. Most of the bombing is going after suspected storage sites, which isn't likely to accomplish much more.

Large areas exist which are not covered by Iron Dome, so of course its not going to stop them all, nor was complete accuracy ever claimed, nor does it attempt to engage all rockets within range. Still credited with destroying 150+ though in a few days. No other system on earth could even remotely compare to this performance.

[Omeganian]

They deserve credit for not committing genocide?

Try living through ten rocket alarms per day, and you'll find that surprisingly difficult VERY soon.