Stalingrad Question

[Sea Skimmer]

Broomhandle Mausers have tangent sights graduated to 1000 meters. They fire essentially the same cartridge as well. M1928 Thompson's also had a rear sight graduated to 600yds. Let's just it's a common thing for pistol and submachine gun designers to have adjustable sights with rather, ah, "optimistic" ranges on them.

Hmm, good point. I have an old Mauser pistol that has the graduated sites out to 500yd...

Damn, I cant recall the model but my father has a couple pre WW1 rifles that have sights out to 2000 meters. Ones Austrian and ones French IIRC.

Optimistic is an understatement for the ranges some makers expected.

[Cpt_Frank]

Ones Austrian and ones French IIRC.

Optimistic is an understatement for the ranges some makers expected.

Well they could kill up to 2 kilometers
French gun: Lebel or Berthier?

[Sea Skimmer]

Ones Austrian and ones French IIRC.

Optimistic is an understatement for the ranges some makers expected.

Well they could kill up to 2 kilometers
French gun: Lebel or Berthier?

Lebel I belive. Really I'd need to go and check, then I could give you the model. But I dont really feel like sorting through about a hundred rifles to find it. Plus I'm at school.

[DocHorror]

James Coburn used that gun in Cross of Iron...

[Perinquus]

Ones Austrian and ones French IIRC.

Optimistic is an understatement for the ranges some makers expected.

Well they could kill up to 2 kilometers
French gun: Lebel or Berthier?

Lebel I belive. Really I'd need to go and check, then I could give you the model. But I dont really feel like sorting through about a hundred rifles to find it. Plus I'm at school.

If it's got a tubular magazine, it's a Lebel. If it has a box magazine that can be loaded via stripper clips, it's a Berthier.

If it's a Lebel and you ever get your hands on some 8mm Lebel ammo, don't load it into the magazine! Fire it as a single shot only. The pointed bullets can rest against the primer each of the rounds in front of them. This is NOT a good thing. WWI French ammo had a groove in the base of the cartridge case to hold the points of the bullet in the magazine, and keep it off the primer of the round in front. It was a somewhat successful measure, though still far from ideal. Commercial ammo, while rare, can occasionally be found, but it lacks this groove, and is most definitely not safe to load into the tubular magazine of the Lebel. If you load the tubular magazine to its full capacity of 8 rounds, and one of them ignites the primer of another cartridge, you could get a gang fire in the magazine.

Remember, when you go to the range, your fellow shooters may be impressed by an interesting historical rifle. They will not be impressed by flying shrapnel.

[Nathan F]

Well they could kill up to 2 kilometers
French gun: Lebel or Berthier?

Lebel I belive. Really I'd need to go and check, then I could give you the model. But I dont really feel like sorting through about a hundred rifles to find it. Plus I'm at school.

If it's got a tubular magazine, it's a Lebel. If it has a box magazine that can be loaded via stripper clips, it's a Berthier.

If it's a Lebel and you ever get your hands on some 8mm Lebel ammo, don't load it into the magazine! Fire it as a single shot only. The pointed bullets can rest against the primer each of the rounds in front of them. This is NOT a good thing. WWI French ammo had a groove in the base of the cartridge case to hold the points of the bullet in the magazine. It was a somewhat successful measure, though still far from ideal. Commercial ammo, while rare, can occasionally be found, but it lacks this groove, and is most definitely not safe to load into the tubular magazine of the Lebel. If you load the tubular magazine to its full capacity of 8 rounds, and one of them ignites the primer of another cartridge, you could get a gang fire in the magazine.

Remember, when you go to the range, your fellow shooters may be impressed by an interesting historical rifle. They will not be impressed by flying shrapnel.

The exact reason you never see any modern levergun that has a tube mag in anything but a pistol caliber, or caliber that commonly has a round nosed bullet (.45-70, .30-30, etc.)

[Edi]

One piece of interesting trivia regarding the PPSh is that it seems to be a carbon copy of the Finnish Suomi KP (Suomi SMG), which was used to great effect in the Winter War in late 1939 to March 1940. It was typically a squad leader weapon and proved deadly against the Russians, which is no surprise considering the rolling, forested terrain of eastern Finland where engagement distances were often short. Among the Russian troops, Suomi-gunners were the most hated and feared Finnish soldiers.

The Lahti corporation which made the Suomi KP offered it to the Russians sometime in the mid-1930s, but they turned it down. One Russian general who sat on the commission that reviewed potential weapons for the Red Army said that it was deemed to be a police weapon only, useless and unsuitable for combat and too unsuited for their security forces too in light of existing weapons. He also said that the Russians had later great cause to regret that decision when the Finnish army demonstrated just how useless and unsuited for front-line combat use the Suomi KP actually was. They learned quickly, apparently, which is why the Germans found it in wide use in the Red Army.

The Suomi KP could be fit either with a 72 round drum magazine or a 36 round box magazine and fires 9 mm pistol bullets. It weighs nearly four kilograms (or was it over four? Can't remember). It's a heavy son of a bitch anyway, I can guarantee you that, having handled one. It's designed to be nearly weather and soldier proof, and it's incredibly simple in construction, even easier to take apart than an AK-47. It's accurate even over relatively long distances because the slide mechanism is so damned heavy that all of the recoil energy goes into pushing it back and the weapon doesn't buck when firing. I've not fired one, but a friend of mine did when he was in the army and he said that the recoil was minimal, if you missed the first shot, you could just walk the fire to a target without worrying about the gun bucking at all.

If you want more info on the Suomi KP, I think it can be found in some weapon encyclopedias. For more info on the Winter War, see a book titled Frozen Hell: The Russo-Finnish Winter War of 1939-40 by William Trotter. That's where much of the info in the above post comes from, especially with regard to Russian attitudes toward the weapon.

Edi

[Vympel]

James Coburn used that gun in Cross of Iron...

"I had no part in it!"

*James Cobrun empties the entire drum into that piece of traitorous slime, in slow motion, screaming*

That movie fucking rules.

[Boba Fett]

Another main advantage of the PPS was it's "simple" design.

You can throw it into the mud wallow with it in a puddle and it's still working. It doesn't need regular maintanence and cleaning.
If you shake one you can hear as the inner parts knock to each other...

That was definetely the best choice for the russian front.

[Perinquus]

One piece of interesting trivia regarding the PPSh is that it seems to be a carbon copy of the Finnish Suomi KP (Suomi SMG), which was used to great effect in the Winter War in late 1939 to March 1940. It was typically a squad leader weapon and proved deadly against the Russians, which is no surprise considering the rolling, forested terrain of eastern Finland where engagement distances were often short. Among the Russian troops, Suomi-gunners were the most hated and feared Finnish soldiers.

The Lahti corporation which made the Suomi KP offered it to the Russians sometime in the mid-1930s, but they turned it down. One Russian general who sat on the commission that reviewed potential weapons for the Red Army said that it was deemed to be a police weapon only, useless and unsuitable for combat and too unsuited for their security forces too in light of existing weapons. He also said that the Russians had later great cause to regret that decision when the Finnish army demonstrated just how useless and unsuited for front-line combat use the Suomi KP actually was. They learned quickly, apparently, which is why the Germans found it in wide use in the Red Army.

The Suomi KP could be fit either with a 72 round drum magazine or a 36 round box magazine and fires 9 mm pistol bullets. It weighs nearly four kilograms (or was it over four? Can't remember). It's a heavy son of a bitch anyway, I can guarantee you that, having handled one. It's designed to be nearly weather and soldier proof, and it's incredibly simple in construction, even easier to take apart than an AK-47. It's accurate even over relatively long distances because the slide mechanism is so damned heavy that all of the recoil energy goes into pushing it back and the weapon doesn't buck when firing. I've not fired one, but a friend of mine did when he was in the army and he said that the recoil was minimal, if you missed the first shot, you could just walk the fire to a target without worrying about the gun bucking at all.

If you want more info on the Suomi KP, I think it can be found in some weapon encyclopedias. For more info on the Winter War, see a book titled Frozen Hell: The Russo-Finnish Winter War of 1939-40 by William Trotter. That's where much of the info in the above post comes from, especially with regard to Russian attitudes toward the weapon.

Edi

I'm familiar with the Suomi, and I can tell you that the PPSh-41 is certainly not just a copy of it. For one thing, the PPSh-41 is about a kilogram lighter, and it made extensively from stampings to ease mass prodiction. The Suomi model 1931 is made the old-fashioned way, out of milled steel, and is made to the pre war standard of fit and finish that you just don't see in firearms anymore. Unlike the PPSh-41, the Suomi can be fired very accurately at long ranges for a submachine gun. The Suomi also had a facility for a quick barrel change, which is almost unique in a submachine gun. The mechanism of the two guns is quite different as well. They're not at all the same gun, only broadly similar in configuration.

Compare the Suomi:



to the PPSh-41:

[Edi]

I'm familiar with the Suomi, and I can tell you that the PPSh-41 is certainly not just a copy of it. For one thing, the PPSh-41 is about a kilogram lighter, and it made extensively from stampings to ease mass prodiction. The Suomi model 1931 is made the old-fashioned way, out of milled steel, and is made to the pre war standard of fit and finish that you just don't see in firearms anymore. Unlike the PPSh-41, the Suomi can be fired very accurately at long ranges for a submachine gun. The Suomi also had a facility for a quick barrel change, which is almost unique in a submachine gun. The mechanism of the two guns is quite different as well. They're not at all the same gun, only broadly similar in configuration.

Compare the Suomi:

http://www.arms.ru/Guns/pistmin/suomi.jpg

to the PPSh-41:

http://www.korteng.com/KWjpg/ppsh41A.jpg

I see.

Thanks for correcting me, Perinquus. That was a very interesting piece of information. I just posted based on the impression I got of the PPSh based on the pictures without going to the trouble of finding out much about its technical and manufacturing related aspects (not that I knew that stuff you posted about the Suomi KP either...). Well, no damage done other than that I managed to make myself look ignorant, but I never did claim to be an expert on firearms.

By the way, do you happen to have one of the Suomi KPs yourself if you collect guns, or have you just had opportunity to handle and examine one somewhere?

Also, what is your opinion of the Suomi KP when compared to other SMGs of that era? AFAIK it was considered one of the best, but it was relatively unknown elsewhere and has remained relatively obscure to most people if I'm not mistaken (which I could be).

Edi

[Perinquus]

I see.

No harm done. If it makes you feel any better, I believe the Russians did copy some of its features, like the design of its drum magazine.

Thanks for correcting me, Perinquus. That was a very interesting piece of information. I just posted based on the impression I got of the PPSh based on the pictures without going to the trouble of finding out much about its technical and manufacturing related aspects (not that I knew that stuff you posted about the Suomi KP either...). Well, no damage done other than that I managed to make myself look ignorant, but I never did claim to be an expert on firearms.

By the way, do you happen to have one of the Suomi KPs yourself if you collect guns, or have you just had opportunity to handle and examine one somewhere?

Also, what is your opinion of the Suomi KP when compared to other SMGs of that era? AFAIK it was considered one of the best, but it was relatively unknown elsewhere and has remained relatively obscure to most people if I'm not mistaken (which I could be).

Edi

I don't have one myself. I don't have any fully automatic weapons. You can get them, if you're willing to pay the exorbitant price and pay for a Class III weapons permit. One day, I'll get an M1928 Thompson, by hook or by crook, but right now I can't afford one.

The Suomi, however, is rare on this side of the Atlantic. Not many were ever imported. It was one of the best SMGs of the era, hands down. It was well made, extremely reliable, didn't seem to wear out, ever, and it was very accurate for a submachine gun. It's weight and balance meant that it could be more easily controlled on full auto than most SMGs, and this meant it could be accurately fired at longer ranges than most.

[Edi]

I see.

No harm done. If it makes you feel any better, I believe the Russians did copy some of its features, like the design of its drum magazine.

Could be, those things fit a lot of bullets in them, so they come in very handy.

By the way, do you happen to have one of the Suomi KPs yourself if you collect guns, or have you just had opportunity to handle and examine one somewhere?

Also, what is your opinion of the Suomi KP when compared to other SMGs of that era? AFAIK it was considered one of the best, but it was relatively unknown elsewhere and has remained relatively obscure to most people if I'm not mistaken (which I could be).

Edi

I don't have one myself. I don't have any fully automatic weapons. You can get them, if you're willing to pay the exorbitant price and pay for a Class III weapons permit. One day, I'll get an M1928 Thompson, by hook or by crook, but right now I can't afford one.

The Suomi, however, is rare on this side of the Atlantic. Not many were ever imported. It was one of the best SMGs of the era, hands down. It was well made, extremely reliable, didn't seem to wear out, ever, and it was very accurate for a submachine gun. It's weight and balance meant that it could be more easily controlled on full auto than most SMGs, and this meant it could be accurately fired at longer ranges than most.

Most of the ones here are still in good condition and work quite well, but the ones we got shown in the army and taught how to take apart were normally not fired at all to avoid unnecessary wear, which is quite reasonable. The full-auto controllability doesn't have as much to do with the overall weight of the weapon as it does with the weight of the slide (.45 kg), and its design (see here for more) ensure that almost all of the recoil from a typical 9 mm bullet is used just to reset the weapon for the next shot and eject the spent shell.

For more info on various Finnish and assorted other weapons, go here:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/weapons.html


This picture displays the accuracy of the Suomi KP, the right hand side is the result of 50 rounds fired on full automatic mode from 100 meters off, from a supported firing position, in five round bursts.

A more extensive history of the Suomi KP is located here:
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

Edi