John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Darth Wong »

Channel72 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This itself seems like a strawman. Nowhere did Stewart say that any particular "new demographic" must be defined by race. He simply used race as an example of previous new groups which were shunned and accused of causing moral decay and economic ruin. In the past, it was the Irish ("lazy, criminal, drunkards, religious fanatics"), the Jews ("greedy, dishonest, untrustworthy"), and they always manufacture reasons why this group is dangerous and is leading to the downfall of society. Today it's gays and anyone else who doesn't follow "traditional morality", by which they mean "sexual norms".

The rationale keeps changing, but the basic mindset is the same: "it's different from us, so let's manufacture excuses to say that it will ruin society and must be eliminated".
Stewart's bit likely took a cue from O'Reilly's sulking about "white Christian America" being in decline, but it seems the larger issue that conservatives are concerned about is a pan-demographic shift towards liberalism. In the past, allegations of moral decay were associated with an influx of new immigrants, like Irish or Jews, whereas now the accusations of moral decay are not particularly associated with any new demographic (except homosexuals).
Right, and that's the point: the true enemy of conservatism has always been change. Whether that change is associated with a particular ethnicity or not is almost beside the point, although it's extremely convenient for conservatives if such a connection can be drawn, since it allows for easier identification of The Enemy.
Conservatives complain about Latino immigrants stealing American jobs, not causing moral decay. Rather, the moral decay is associated with an overall social shift towards a more progressive, less judgmental attitude, with less emphasis on Christianity.
They complain about both. They believe that Latino immigrants are immoral because they do not respect American laws, and that their crusade against Latino immigrants is in fact based on important moral principles. They believe this Latino immigrant horde is a pack of "leeches" who are taking advantage of American largesse without giving back. Their language is absolutely chock full of moralizing, as it always is when they look for excuses to marginalize a group that they don't like.
The ironic thing, of course, is that today's Hispanic immigrants actually tend to be religious conservatives, but the GOP has so far been too stupid to capitalize on it.
The GOP would have trouble capitalizing on it even if they tried. Hispanics are Catholic, and while a lot of prosperous white American Catholics have gone along with the Ayn Rand Revolution in conservative politics, the Catholic Church at large is still pushing a much more socialistic attitude. They do get a lot of mileage from anti-abortion and homophobia, but not enough to erase the rather strong impression that they're just a bunch of self-satisfied and privileged old white male pricks who want to keep everyone else down.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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The notions that Catholics aren't REAL Christians, the Pope is an antichrist, and Catholics are unthrustworthy - which are continuously spouted by the evangelicals - don' really help, either.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by spaceviking »

Well if Billy Graham is willing to act like mormans are regular Christians, recognizing Catholics should be easy.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Recognizing Catholics should be easy, but getting Hispanic Catholics to drink the Ayn Rand Kool-Aid might be a little trickier. The world-wide Catholic Church (as opposed to Donohue's pasty-white American version) has an awful lot of strength among impoverished nations where the "let rich people get even richer" ethos doesn't really fly. They have a larger perspective, and won't necessarily change it in order to win an election in the United States.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Channel72 »

Darth Wong wrote:Recognizing Catholics should be easy, but getting Hispanic Catholics to drink the Ayn Rand Kool-Aid might be a little trickier. The world-wide Catholic Church (as opposed to Donohue's pasty-white American version) has an awful lot of strength among impoverished nations where the "let rich people get even richer" ethos doesn't really fly. They have a larger perspective, and won't necessarily change it in order to win an election in the United States.
Sure, but overall the GOP platform is a lot more aligned with the social positions of the Catholic Church than the Democrats. Both the GOP and the Catholic Church are against abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage, whereas the Democrats are all for these things. A lot of white, poor evangelicals are one-issue voters, and just always vote GOP because of abortion and gay marriage. In other words, they vote for whoever their pastor votes for - they don't even know who Ayn Rand is.

Really, I think the main reason the GOP can't at least partially duplicate this success among the Hispanic community is their perceived "whiteness" - which carries with it all sorts of connotations of establishment abuse. Even the word "Republican" has a negative connotation in inner-city communities with a large Hispanic population like the South Bronx. So, really - this is mostly a problem of branding, rather than ideology. If the GOP simply made a major effort to rebrand themselves as an Hispanic-friendly party, by promoting people like Marco Rubio and softening their stance on immigration, they might be able to make significant inroads with Hispanics. Whether they can pull this off while at the same time not pissing off their white, xenophobic evangelical base is the real question.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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I still think that appealing directly to the Latino block, if the Republicans do it, will not be enough to counter the Democrats' appeal to the generic low-income voter. Matt Yglesias made the point recently that thinking of the Latino vote as one block would only work if the appeal is made to their economic side as opposed to their ethnic side. Which is where the Democrats win amongst both Latinos and Blacks - African Americans have always voted D, it has little to do with a black man being the candidate.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Channel72 »

UnderAGreySky wrote:I still think that appealing directly to the Latino block, if the Republicans do it, will not be enough to counter the Democrats' appeal to the generic low-income voter. Matt Yglesias made the point recently that thinking of the Latino vote as one block would only work if the appeal is made to their economic side as opposed to their ethnic side. Which is where the Democrats win amongst both Latinos and Blacks - African Americans have always voted D, it has little to do with a black man being the candidate.
You might be right - I certainly hope so. But evidence against your position is the fact that low-income white voters in Southern states like Oklahoma and Mississippi mostly vote GOP - against their own economic interests - purely for ideological or religious reasons.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Flagg »

Channel72 wrote:
UnderAGreySky wrote:I still think that appealing directly to the Latino block, if the Republicans do it, will not be enough to counter the Democrats' appeal to the generic low-income voter. Matt Yglesias made the point recently that thinking of the Latino vote as one block would only work if the appeal is made to their economic side as opposed to their ethnic side. Which is where the Democrats win amongst both Latinos and Blacks - African Americans have always voted D, it has little to do with a black man being the candidate.
You might be right - I certainly hope so. But evidence against your position is the fact that low-income white voters in Southern states like Oklahoma and Mississippi mostly vote GOP - against their own economic interests - purely for ideological or religious reasons.
And racism. Never forget the enormous capacity for racism. I remember back when I worked security in FL I knew a guy who moved from the midwest when he was 15, and until then had never seen a black person except on TV and was incredibly racist.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by madd0ct0r »

I was browsing a spanish language newspaper yesterday, and most of the main stories were variants on 'will obama start immigration reform?'

As long as the republicans are seen as the xenophobes, they ain't going to get the latino vote. Every member of the community has friends back home still.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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I don't see how the GOP can increase its appeal to minority groups without losing its appeal among rednecks and hicks.

Their appear to the redneck/hick vote is simple: "YOU are everything right with this country, and this country could be great again if only more people were like YOU." In other words, it's nothing but a huge ego stroke-fest. That whole narrative has to come crashing down before Republicans can make a serious pitch to Latinos; are they honestly so stupid that they think they can say "Group A is ruining this country" in one room and then go to the next room and say "Group A, we promise to look out for your interests", without anyone noticing?

But without this constant "white Christian male hard-working ubermensch" ego stroke-fest, how can the Republicans maintain their hold on that demographic? It's the reason that demographic keeps ignoring its own economic interests to vote for them. Sure, everyone says they're doing it based on "principles", like abortion or contraception or whatever, but with the rare exception of the highly educated class, I don't think most peoples' stated reasons for having opinions are real. I think that most peoples' stated reasons for political opinions are just decorative wallpaper that they glue on top of their real motives, which are more emotional.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Channel72 »

Well, remember that the GOP didn't do so bad with Latinos in 2000 and 2004. In 2004, something like 40% of Latinos voted for Bush, if I recall correctly. Karl Rove's overall strategy for the Republican party always included reaching out to minorities. Bush also had a much softer immigration stance than the current crop of post-Tea Party Republicans.

What really fucked the GOP over, in terms of the minority vote, was the ramped up extremism during the first Obama administration, reflected most glaringly through the hilarious lineup of all-white Tea Party candidates, along with the hardline anti-immigration stance in Arizona which made national news. The Republican party was always absurdly right-wing, but after 2008 they really became a caricature.

If the GOP survives, it will be because they tone down the extremism and get back on track with appealing to minorities. They were making decent progress with that under Bush. I think if the GOP fielded a Latino candidate, probably for the Vice President, they might have a chance of cutting into the Latino vote. Yeah - this might partially alienate their reliable redneck, xenophobic base, but when the alternative is to vote Democrat, I'm not sure how much of an impact on the electoral college this will actually have. It's not like previous die-hard red hick states like Oklahoma and Kansas are suddenly going to go blue because the GOP reaches out to Hispanics.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Zinegata »

Mr Bean wrote:By contrast Billo goes on time and time again despite being made to look like a fool at least once a week because Stewart does his job so well in being polite...funny and just as bitingly accurate as it is possible to be while still seeming polite.
Honestly, I think it's less of Stewart being "polite" and more of Bill O respecting Stewart's intellect. Bill's actually gone on the record saying several times that Stewart is the smartest man on television regarding politics - which is why there's always a bit of sly "wink wink, I'm only kidding" whenever he tells Jon he's just a comedian.

Moreover, I think this whole thing is another of Stewart's "sanity checks" for O'Reilly. I don't think O'Reilly was trying to be racist in his election day comment, he was just trying to state an objective fact that the demographics were changing.

But the comment has been taken by everyone else in Fox News to newer and crazier extremes which are racist, and it's simply gotten to the point that Stewart's telling Papa Bear "Yeah, this really is your damn fault because of what you said on election day".
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Ahriman238 »

I admit, I cut O'Reilly a bit more slack than I probably should since he agreed to go on Stewart's "Night of Too Many Stars" charity event for autism and debate Maher while huffing helium.

What does it say about the present GOP where I feel Bill O'Reilly is a moderate, because he's at least willing to speak to liberals and work with them on common goals?
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Zinegata »

Bill O's actually very moderate on a number of issues - he supports same-sex marriage and clean energy research (but also drilling) for instance.

The issue I think is that he knows that he's now part of the Fox News establishment and can't get away from it; and that the only way he'll continue having high ratings (and earning lots of money) is to pander to the conservative base.

There's actually been a gradual evolution in his show. Before, O'Reilly tended to be the "angry white guy" with a lot of conservative beliefs, but he was also more open about his more left-leaning and moderate beliefs; much like how Shepard Smith is prone to giving sudden emotional outbursts that runs contrary to the Fox establishment.

Nowadays, Bill's much more mellow (to the point that Alan Colmes has essentially migrated to his show after Hannity got tired of chewing on him), but the content unfortunately seems more controlled and tends to be just repeats of the Fox Agenda of the Day (which is why Colmes remains a chew toy).

I think Stewart is secretly egging O'Reilly to ditch Fox altogether, because Stewart does see him as "conservative, but can be reasoned with".
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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O'Reilly is a slippery sack of shit. I know you can point to him moderating some of his positions compared to other FOXNews people, but that doesn't mean he's a nice guy or an honest one. I've seen him argue with Stewart enough to know his modus operandi: he constantly changes the subject to "I'm so reasonable compared to some of these extremists out there", and he constantly evades cutting points in favour of side issues (or yet another segue back to his favourite hobby horse: "I'm such a reasonable guy").
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Flagg »

Yeah, I watched O'Reilly until the Iraq war started and the bitch of it is that you can agree with him maybe 75-80% of the time, but the rest goes right into fucking lunatic territory. And I don't think he actually buys into anything but the racist shit.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Yeah, that whole "white male Christian power structure" thing is something he never backs away from, and Stewart never realy pushes him on how absolutely horrible it is. He kind of dances around it, hints at it, but never goes right at it with the quotes to ask what the fuck kind of racist scumbag actually thinks that it's important to preserve the "white male Christian power structure".
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, that whole "white male Christian power structure" thing is something he never backs away from, and Stewart never realy pushes him on how absolutely horrible it is. He kind of dances around it, hints at it, but never goes right at it with the quotes to ask what the fuck kind of racist scumbag actually thinks that it's important to preserve the "white male Christian power structure".
Which is why I dislike John Stewart. Like every other mindless middle media turd he cares more about getting access to these people than he does about exposing the cunts that they are. Unless they are people who don't really matter like Tucker Carlson or Jim Cramer. And all the while these clowns can point to their appearences on his show and say "hey, I do his show, I'm not afraid of the evil liberals!"
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Yeah, that whole "white male Christian power structure" thing is something he never backs away from, and Stewart never realy pushes him on how absolutely horrible it is. He kind of dances around it, hints at it, but never goes right at it with the quotes to ask what the fuck kind of racist scumbag actually thinks that it's important to preserve the "white male Christian power structure".
Which is why I dislike John Stewart. Like every other mindless middle media turd he cares more about getting access to these people than he does about exposing the cunts that they are. Unless they are people who don't really matter like Tucker Carlson or Jim Cramer. And all the while these clowns can point to their appearences on his show and say "hey, I do his show, I'm not afraid of the evil liberals!"
Well, what can be done? You have to play the game and make sacrifices at times. i mean, Cenk Uygur went in to MSNBC all fire and brimstone and was told point-blank that he was pissing people in Washington off too much and he was kicked out. (If the rumors are true Olbermann was also fired by their new parent company for also being too inflammatory)Now, Cenk has some idiotic views but those views didn't surface at MSNBC and weren't the main reason they were complaining. Without access people like Stewart (less so than Uygur) lose value.

Yes, the situation allows both sides to benefit in a way that maintains the status quo but I can't see what can be done about it.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Zinegata »

Darth Wong wrote:O'Reilly is a slippery sack of shit. I know you can point to him moderating some of his positions compared to other FOXNews people, but that doesn't mean he's a nice guy or an honest one.
I didn't say he was nice or honest. I thought I'd made that rather clear when I said that he's basically basing his entire act to pander to the ultra-conservative base, because that's what keeps his ratings high and by extension his pockets full. :P

What I did also say is that Stewart thinks that O'Reilly can also be reasoned with, because O'Reilly does occasionally show flashes of intelligent life (less so nowadays in his show however). I think Stewart suspects that O'Reilly secretly wants out of Fox and present a less retard version of the conservative viewpoint.

For instance, O'Reilly had a particular comment during his last debate with Stewart where he says the problem with the modern news cycle is that the media is driven by ratings (to earn ad revenue), and that the problem with the ratings-driven programs is that ideologically-driven reporting tends to attract a bigger base. People watch the news not to learn something new, but because they want to reaffirm their own beliefs. This is why the news is now full of "attack dogs".

Which is ironically everything that is wrong with Fox News (ultra-conservative outlet pandering to ultra-conservative viewers, getting high ratings and therefore high revenues). Of course, this could just be a broken clock being right twice a day, but I say let Stewart work at it and see where it goes.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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O'Reilly is all about preserving "traditional values" against the onslaught of secular liberalism. Every other talking points memo is something about how the "far left" is doing something crazy. Oh no - Code Pink is protesting something, or gays interrupted a church service somewhere, or some school principal in Nowhere, Wisconsin won't allow students to wear Jesus shirts to school. He's fucking terrified of "secular progressives", and just wants a society based on Christian values like the ones he grew up with. Yeah, he's much less crazy and probably more intelligent than your typical Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter types, but at the end of the day he doesn't really put forth any convincing arguments for why secular progressivism is bad, other than a collection of cherry-picked anecdotes and his own nostalgic attachment to "traditional values".

For a striking example of how evasive and just downright horrible he is at actual debate, watch his interview with Richard Dawkins. His entire argument against atheism is basically "well, you don't know exactly how the Universe started so therefore Christianity is correct."
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Zinegata, anyone who thinks "tide goes in, tide comes out, never a miscommunication" is a proof of God is NOT a particularly intelligent person. If you think he's smart, then you're just being gullible. Even if you think he's just playing to his base, he could have done so without looking so stupid. That was one of the clumsiest arguments for the existence of God that I've ever seen, and not only did he keep saying it over and over, but he even defended it afterwards.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

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Darth Wong wrote:Zinegata, anyone who thinks "tide goes in, tide comes out, never a miscommunication" is a proof of God is NOT a particularly intelligent person. If you think he's smart, then you're just being gullible. Even if you think he's just playing to his base, he could have done so without looking so stupid. That was one of the clumsiest arguments for the existence of God that I've ever seen, and not only did he keep saying it over and over, but he even defended it afterwards.
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"We're not going to argue with the bully part. Bill O'Reilly was clearly meant to be a corrupt police chief in Prohibition-era Boston. But apparently he's not the anti-intellectual dimwit his enemies like to imagine. According to basically every list of surprising celebrity SAT scores on the Internet, O'Reilly put up a near perfect 1585 out of 1600 on his SATs, and his college career indicates a downright shocking level of intellectual curiosity. He graduated from Marist University with honors and went on to earn a masters degree from Boston University and a second masters from Harvard, before deciding to yell the F-word at teleprompters for a living."

I don't know if Bill O'Reilly practice the most exceptional level of double think, but he is not just some idiot. This is why I dislike him more than Glen Beck or the like, O'Reilly should be better.
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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Darth Wong »

Maybe he was smart when he was young, and pickled his brain over the years. Maybe he took degrees that are a lot easier than you might think, or at least require good bullshit skills but little in the way of logic. Who knows? Either way, he says remarkably stupid things on a regular basis, and they aren't just incidents of "misspeaking", because he defends them afterwards.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Re: John Stewart's American Privilege History Lesson

Post by Zinegata »

Wong->

I said he "occasionally" shows flashes of intelligence. I'm not saying he is intelligent. :P
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